I have two sons that were born in the United States. I recently received letter from Mindef that my older son has been classified as NS defaulter. I have to communicate with them in order to resolve this.
We applied for his singapore citizenship years ago and there has been problems and issues in the last ten years or so that we actually were not thinking much about his NS issue. My wife and myself are still SG citizen and I am not sure what will happen to my son right now since I have not heard from them yet. Mindef assigned and inspector to help me to resolve the problem but I don't think it's gong to be easy. i feel very guilty that i put my son in this situation. Anyway, if anyone of you could help me , any information will be helpfull.
my son was born in Boston, MA. Went back to SG when he was 3 months old and came back to the United States when he was a year and a half. since then, he has been living in Los Angeles, went to school and currently a student at UCLA trying to finish his degree. We did not receive any letters from mindef becuase of mailing problems until a month ago when he turns 22 stating that he has lost his citizenship and has to surrender his SG citizen certificate. he was never issued an IC but were given a nric no. He is a U.S. citizen.
Although he has no intention to live in SG nor to serve the NS but i will like him to have the freedom to travel to SG especially we might move back to SG for our retirement later. He had traveled to SG a few time in the past with no problems but since we received this letter from Mindef, I am not sure if he will have problems when he tries to enter singapore. When I called Mindef, they told me that he is not "black listed' and should have no problem entering singaproe for visit but I am not sure if i could count on it. So far, no one has yet spoken to me from mindef but will contact me soon, according to one of the officier.
my younger one will turn 18 in a few months and is in the same situation. I am trying to find out what to do with him and options are to give up his citizenship before he turns 18 to avoid any problem with NS. I should not have applied for their citizenship in the first place.
Please help!!! Desperate to learn more about this. thanks
think yer problem sounds too complicated especially when the law is the law n cant be changed.i have heard kids in yer situation returning to spore only to be arrested at the airport in singapore.
heard a guy who came back from europe using an EU passport got thrown into a jail for a few years because of this ns thing.how they ever got hold of info using his EU passport is still unknown.think he is still in jail as i type.
whatever the clerks told you over the phone..they cant really be trusted.in fact they dont really care./...as long as they reply the calls over the phone..n give out info ...whetehr or not yer son gets jailed its not their problem of concern.dealing with them at times give me the impression of dealing with robots in human form.
u could simply denounce the spore citizenship to avoid such jailtime and much inconvenience for everyone of concern.then u could fly in an out to spore without getting arrested.
if your son was born and u live in massachusetts.then thats where u should progress.he should eat more,work hard and enter MIT university.
remember all these inspectors,officers etc all need to listen to higher ups who are often not in sync with reality.they follow orders and play imaginary war games as part of their job....and their get back in line type of mentality will not help matters either.they lack any power except to follow orders in gold /black/white written more than 40years ago.
.Although he has no intention to live in SG nor to serve the NS but i will like him to have the freedom to travel to SG especially we might move back to SG for our retirement later.
no such thing, if every1 plan like you then we all local free labour ???
if yr son dont serve Singapore like all normal local do, just be a visitor to us will do.
So are your sons US citizens or Sgp citizens? I couldn't catch that clearly from the first post.
Perhaps since you have an 'inspector' allocated for your elder son's case, you could ask him/her about your second son too?
For me, there's two ways about it; 1) drop sgp citizenship and you won't have to worry about NS whatsoever, or 2) send your son(s) back for NS. Any other way will involve admin., letters, phone calls etc. and most un-worthy of all....the uncertainty in your's, your sons' and the rest of your family's mind about whether it's safe to enter into Sgp.
If you don't trust a verbal asurance from one MINDEF officer as to whether your son(s) will have trouble at customs, then perhaps ask for a letter? I can understand how you feel about your elder son, especially since he's officially received the 'default' letter. Does that letter request for any action btw? I too, find it hard to believe that after receiving a letter, that the person isn't 'listed' in some way at the moment.
Originally posted by Hwaimeng:
no such thing, if every1 plan like you then we all local free labour ???if yr son dont serve Singapore like all normal local do, just be a visitor to us will do.
x2
Look at that pianist who just kena fine only.
How does that do justice to us?
inequality..some get death sentence...some just get life imprisonment.
References
1) US Embassy's answers for NS in Singapore @ http://singapore.usembassy.gov/dual_nationality.html
2) http://singapore.usembassy.gov/renouncing-us-citzenship.html
3) www.sgforums.com/forums/1390/topics/379219
4) www.sgforums.com/forums/1390/topics/258375
5) www.sgforums.com/forums/1390/topics/315302
6) www.sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/160723
7) www.sgforums.com/forums/1390/topics/381076
8) www.sgforums.com/forums/2163/topics/377652
9) www.sgforums.com/forums/1390/topics/377121
link to ICA...
Overview
Minors who are Singapore Citizens by descent/registration must
take the Oath of Renunciation, Allegiance and Loyalty within 12 months
on attaining the age of 21 years to remain as Singapore Citizens.
If the Oath is not taken, he/she will automatically lose his/her citizenship on attaining the age of 22 years.
Failure to take the Oath and the consequences
If one fails to take the Oath within 12 months on attaining the age of
21 years, he/she will automatically lose his/her citizenship on
attaining the age of 22 years and there is no assurance that he/she can
continue studying, working or residing in Singapore as a foreigner on
any form of student pass, work pass, social visit pass or as a
permanent resident.
Eligibility
Minors who are Singapore Citizens by descent or registration must take the Oath of Renunciation, Allegiance and Loyalty upon
attaining 21 years of age and before attaining 22 years of age.
Looks like your younger son will be the one who will be arrested.
Cos the older son has already lost the citizenship.
Anyway, do not trust those speaking to you over the phone. They are highly un-credible. If anything happens, nobody bothers and they will push the blame back to you. I enquired them about my mobilisation code through the phone before and they said they dont know. They say they will call me when mobilisation occurs, hard to believe, (when they dont even know whats my mobilisation code). =X
Make sure you have a black and white record of it. Email them instead, get them to respond to your enquiries via e-mail so that you have a backup copy of what they said over the e-mail. If they reply the e-mail through phone, get them to mail you a copy of their reply in black and white.
I wish I am those white horse's sons lastime.
But actually I am more lucky than them.
I did not fire a single bullet, never do IPPT once and always go MA. I never do Guard duty and night duty. Shiok.
Good life during my NS life, better than White horses.
there is another article from Mindef - DPM Teo in 2006 regarding NS Defaulters but it seem like it apply those singaporeans who are singapore citizens from birth...
http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2006/jan/16jan06_nr.html
i think it will better to send email to check with mindef directly..
or if you want, can email those big shots.
http://app.sgdi.gov.sg/listing.asp?agency_subtype=dept&agency_id=0000000002
Why u complain. Just return the SG citizenship and stay in US lo. Leave the land of tortures. We dun have good human rights here. YOu need to slog like hell. If you want to be Singaporean, den you must serve. You fuck care the government. You think they want you back. Yes but you need to pay a sum of amount to get your son back plus fulfill NS obligation.
Go through NS ma. What so hard about it? Keep fit and meals are provided. The bad thing is we are pay like a general worker.
@ Samg128: Your situation is actually very clear, it is the choice that is hard.
I was born overseas and became a Singapore citizen at the age of 2 by registration (in those days there was no NS so it seemed a logical choice for my parents) -- it seems you also registered your sons as Singaporeans -- which is why they became citizens and liable for NS. Once you did this you locked them into the requirement to serve NS, period. In my case there was no way out of citizenship until I reached the age of 21, at which point you have to swear an oath of allegiance to Singapore. If they refuse this oath, as I did, then they automatically lose their citizenship. However if they have served NS by then, they will be granted PR such that they continue to have rights of abode in Singapore (along with the liability for reservists). If they have not served NS then they automatically go on the NS defaulters list -- as your first son now has. I served 2.5 years NS and became a PR. I left Singapore immediately after that and did not return for many years -- and gave up my PR along the way as well. A few years ago my company asked me to post back to Singapore. The authorities here took a lot of extra time to process my employment pass application as they verified whether I had actually served NS or not. It was made clear to me that if I had not served I would not be able to return and live/work here. However, since I did serve they also re-instated my PR some months after my return.
The choice of not to return and serve is a difficult one. It is completely at the discretion of the Immigration Authorities whether or not to prosecute the deflaulter upon their entry into immigration checkpoints -- and they will know who these people are no matter what passports they travel under. Unless your sons become persons of high renown or public figures in the future it is highly likely that they will face prosecution and penalties (perhaps severe) if they do not serve and ever attempt to re-enter Singapore. In my case I never thought I would return but I did -- the world turns and things change unexpectedly. I know of defaulters of age 40 who returned and were made to serve at that point in their lives. The $64k question is if this is worth it. I'm not sure these days if it is possible for a minor to renounce Singapore citizenship prior to having to serve NS, however even if possible this puts the chap on the black list for entry and abode in Singapore in future just as if they retained citizenship and did not serve, and the window to renounce as an 18-year old adult is very short between turning 18 and receiving your call-up notice.
If the government here did not enforce these measures there would be untold numbers of defaulters/evaders and a highly inequitable situation for those who do serve. It is important to recognise that you are making the decision for your sons to serve when you register them as citizens. There are perks for citizenship, there is also a cost for it.
Good luck in the decision making process.
you should have denounced the sporean citizenship before they denounced you instead!!!!
strike them first is all that really mattered!!now not only its an insult to your sons...your sons are actually blacklisted with a possible lengthy jail term in a dirty prison cell with a concrete floor back in spore!
Originally posted by loftyideals: Samg128: Your situation is actually very clear, it is the choice that is hard.I was born overseas and became a Singapore citizen at the age of 2 by registration (in those days there was no NS so it seemed a logical choice for my parents) -- it seems you also registered your sons as Singaporeans -- which is why they became citizens and liable for NS. Once you did this you locked them into the requirement to serve NS, period. In my case there was no way out of citizenship until I reached the age of 21, at which point you have to swear an oath of allegiance to Singapore. If they refuse this oath, as I did, then they automatically lose their citizenship. However if they have served NS by then, they will be granted PR such that they continue to have rights of abode in Singapore (along with the liability for reservists). If they have not served NS then they automatically go on the NS defaulters list -- as your first son now has. I served 2.5 years NS and became a PR. I left Singapore immediately after that and did not return for many years -- and gave up my PR along the way as well. A few years ago my company asked me to post back to Singapore. The authorities here took a lot of extra time to process my employment pass application as they verified whether I had actually served NS or not. It was made clear to me that if I had not served I would not be able to return and live/work here. However, since I did serve they also re-instated my PR some months after my return.
The choice of not to return and serve is a difficult one. It is completely at the discretion of the Immigration Authorities whether or not to prosecute the deflaulter upon their entry into immigration checkpoints -- and they will know who these people are no matter what passports they travel under. Unless your sons become persons of high renown or public figures in the future it is highly likely that they will face prosecution and penalties (perhaps severe) if they do not serve and ever attempt to re-enter Singapore. In my case I never thought I would return but I did -- the world turns and things change unexpectedly. I know of defaulters of age 40 who returned and were made to serve at that point in their lives. The $64k question is if this is worth it. I'm not sure these days if it is possible for a minor to renounce Singapore citizenship prior to having to serve NS, however even if possible this puts the chap on the black list for entry and abode in Singapore in future just as if they retained citizenship and did not serve, and the window to renounce as an 18-year old adult is very short between turning 18 and receiving your call-up notice.
If the government here did not enforce these measures there would be untold numbers of defaulters/evaders and a highly inequitable situation for those who do serve. It is important to recognise that you are making the decision for your sons to serve when you register them as citizens. There are perks for citizenship, there is also a cost for it.
Good luck in the decision making process.
I believe there are many rumours swirling around the matter, which is deliberately obfucated by the Government to prevent hordes of Singapore citizens renouncing their citizenship.
Let me make a few points to set the record straight.
You are free to renounce your citizenship at any time before you enlist. This applies at any age. Anyone can renounce their citizenship at any Singapore embassy overseas. It is as simple as walking in and filling up a form. It takes mere minutes. It is a right to do so, you cannot be punished for it.
The main obstacle is not renouncing Singapore citizenship, but obtaining foreign PR or foreign citizenship. You should obtain this before renouncing Singapore citizenship as you do not want to be stateless.
Recognising this, the Government extends passport validity for pre-enlistees by 6 months at a time, to preent them sinking roots and obtaining PR overseas. If you are able to legally reside in another country, and better still obtain PR, citizenship, work visa, dependent visa or what have you, this does not bother you.
As a consequence of this policy, the majority of Singaporeans who renounce citizenship before NS are students who have obtained PR while studying.
The point to remember is the Singapore government does not recognise dual citizenship and imposes NS on all Singapore citizens. In other words, you cannot hold on to Singapore citizenship while avoiding NS. However, it does not and cannot stop you from holding dual citizenship up to the point you renounce Singapore citizenship.
The government does not discriminate in empployment matters against ex-citizens who did not do NS. As a legal matter, it can do so but it chooses to open its legs to foreigners instead. A person in my workplace renounced his citizenship and did not do NS. He is not highly skilled, has two years of total working experience, and faces no adverse consequences in obtaining an employment pass here.
Face it, don't be confused by government statements out there. You will note that the government is firstly deliberately vague and secondly very utilitarian. Take the statements by Teo Chee Hean on that defaulter who obtained British citizenship at the age of 22, returned in his 40s and was only fined $3000. The then-Minister said:
Obviously the defaulter's sentence does not fit in with the above. There is speculation online that the defaulter, a prominent pianist, is of some value to Singapore and it would be counter-productive to cut him off completely.
My advice to the defaulter would have been to observe legal procedure (by simply renouncing Singapore citizenship at the appropriate time) and save the $3,000.
duplicate post