DTL rationalisation speculations
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Originally posted by SBS7557R:
With regards to the cutting/withdrawal of bus routes with the opening of DTL 2, the LTA initially intended to cut several long-distance bus routes in 2010 after taking over central bus planning. A thread with regards to it was created, with tons of backlash from many former/current forum members with regards to the cutting of bus routes.
Given that the NEL rationalization 12 years back had brought about significant unhappiness among the North-Easterners (with a thread of it linked here), the opening of CCL didn't see any rationalization and the massive backlash from many when the LTA wanted to cut up long-distance bus routes in 2010, any massive rationalization exercise for DTL2 (for DTL) may just result in similar resentment.
Therefore, it is better for LTA not to touch any routes now, even if they massively duplicate the DTL, unless they are able to achieve a balance in the rationalization of bus services, similar to TransitLink's integration exercises in the early in the 1990s.
The folks in the past were stupid enough to not only not cut routes worthy of cutting, they cut the wrong ones - 501 and 502 couldve been great alternatives to NEL, and if still alive 501 has great potential to ply KPE, becoming the shining frontier of northeast connectivity.
See, routes that were hotcakes, LTA go and cut. Routes that ferry seats, not touched and left to waste resources. That is the bunch of idiots you got in 2003.
Fast forward into the 2010s, LTA obviously have not waken up. Now they decide not to do anything at all! Using the excuse "rationalisation will cause unhappiness". Of bloody course it would! You have been blindly cutting in the past! Rationalisation comes with extensive on ground studies that explore demand and requirement even after MRT lines open! Not based on google maps right on the day the line opens! Once bitten, twice shy? More like not willing to be proactive...
Seems LTA still dont get what is rationalisation... Or trying hard to cram demand into its train lines at the expense of commuter satisfaction?
I myself fully look forward to rationalisation (not the nonsense they gave during 2003). I have been saying it wont happen, because I have already lost faith in the route development sector of LTA... Hopefully foreign operators this time round can help slap LTA out of their rainbows and butterflies...
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With more MRT lines coming up and trains going to more places, people acceptance for more bus cuts and withdrawals will be higher. Bus rationalisation is necessary to ensure that no resources duplications and wastages.
However there are few points to note:
a. Is it easy to perform a bus/train transfer?
b. Are our train rides as comfortable as our bus rides [less cramped and well air-conditioned]?
c. The length of your journey. And the number of transfers needed to reach your destination. With more train stations, more commuters need not make more transfers in reaching their destinations, thus people for bus rationalisation now will be higher.
As for DTL2, from map it seems bus/train transfer along Dunearn Road to any DTL station will be a hassle. They may still be better off to rely on existing bus services to go their destinations. Perhaps LTA can consider running loop services that loop between Dunearn Road to Bukit Timah Road.
I wondering what's the LTA predictions and/or pre-assumptions on the upcoming travelling patterns change due to DTL2? How the CCK/YT residents may make change in their travelling patterns. For me, I will abandon 48 if I am traveling to Little India/ Bugis. I will abandon 7/106 if I am travelling to Bugis. I will still take 970 to Sixth Ave. I will take train to HCI.I may still opt for 61 to Beauty World. I will take DTL/NSL trains to Novena.
There are many deciding factors, not easy for being a transport planner.
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Originally posted by SBS BUSES LOVER:
i find the 173 ammendment not necessary and redundant.
173 make a round at bukit timah plaza, shell kiosk, the bus stop aft jln jurong kechil is also another beauty world station entrance what?? instead they ammend and cut off the transferring. ridiculous
If you have entered Beauty World MRT from Exit C (the exit along Jln Jurong Kechil), you would have realised that it is quite far away from the fare gates. There's a long walkway inbetween the fare gates and Exit C... So less convenient than Exit A where 173 will be calling at.But frankly speaking I'm also not so happy with the amendment... Direct service to Bukit Timah Plaza is gone.
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Originally posted by iamgoondu:
With more MRT lines coming up and trains going to more places, people acceptance for more bus cuts and withdrawals will be higher. Bus rationalisation is necessary to ensure that no resources duplications and wastages.
However there are few points to note:
a. Is it easy to perform a bus/train transfer?
b. Are our train rides as comfortable as our bus rides [less cramped and well air-conditioned]?
c. The length of your journey. And the number of transfers needed to reach your destination. With more train stations, more commuters need not make more transfers in reaching their destinations, thus people for bus rationalisation now will be higher.
As for DTL2, from map it seems bus/train transfer along Dunearn Road to any DTL station will be a hassle. They may still be better off to rely on existing bus services to go their destinations. Perhaps LTA can consider running loop services that loop between Dunearn Road to Bukit Timah Road.
I wondering what's the LTA predictions and/or pre-assumptions on the upcoming travelling patterns change due to DTL2? How the CCK/YT residents may make change in their travelling patterns. For me, I will abandon 48 if I am traveling to Little India/ Bugis. I will abandon 7/106 if I am travelling to Bugis. I will still take 970 to Sixth Ave. I will take train to HCI.I may still opt for 61 to Beauty World. I will take DTL/NSL trains to Novena.
There are many deciding factors, not easy for being a transport planner.
Sadly, I don't think your point (c) is really that valid. With more trains, people will NOT make less transfers - but instead they may even make MORE transfers.Please take note that not all the MRT lines ply the same route in city, nor do they provide links to all the places that commuters are going to. DTL2 is an example where you need to tap out at Newton and then tap in again just to take one stop on NSL to Orchard. (Although the fare system will be changed, the mode of transfer will surely result in massive crowds at fare gates). In fact, DTL3 will be worse but I shall not discuss here.
I have not even taken bus transfers into consideration yet. Let's say you live at somewhere near NJC and are going to SIM. Are you going to take a bus to Sixth Ave MRT, then take DTL for only 1 stop, and transfer to 74/151/154 again? Or are you going to just take a direct 74/151/154? There are thousands of similar cases especially for short-distance travellers. In fact, even some long-distance travellers may also be wondering should they use 972-DTL-NSL or just a direct 972 to Orchard.
Regarding bus-train transfers, although DTL is generally better than CCL, some stations still have bus stops so far away that deter people from transferring to buses. Botanic Gardens is a perfect example.
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After all, Circle Line goes around in circle, Downtown Line branches out to West and East. Of course it helps to shorten journeys currently made only on buses.
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Originally posted by array88:
Sadly, I don't think your point (c) is really that valid. With more trains, people will NOT make less transfers - but instead they may even make MORE transfers.Please take note that not all the MRT lines ply the same route in city, nor do they provide links to all the places that commuters are going to. DTL2 is an example where you need to tap out at Newton and then tap in again just to take one stop on NSL to Orchard. (Although the fare system will be changed, the mode of transfer will surely result in massive crowds at fare gates). In fact, DTL3 will be worse but I shall not discuss here.
I have not even taken bus transfers into consideration yet. Let's say you live at somewhere near NJC and are going to SIM. Are you going to take a bus to Sixth Ave MRT, then take DTL for only 1 stop, and transfer to 74/151/154 again? Or are you going to just take a direct 74/151/154? There are thousands of similar cases especially for short-distance travellers. In fact, even some long-distance travellers may also be wondering should they use 972-DTL-NSL or just a direct 972 to Orchard.
Regarding bus-train transfers, although DTL is generally better than CCL, some stations still have bus stops so far away that deter people from transferring to buses. Botanic Gardens is a perfect example.
My answer is simple:
Even if I stay in Sixth Ave and I am travelling to SIM, I will take bus. I had taken a closer look at Kings Albert Station, oops it is so far away from the Macdonald. If I am travelling to Orchard from BP, if I need to first take 972 to BP Station, I may still opt for the more direct route 972 into Orchard. If I am a Sunset resident and I am travelling to Bugis, I may opt for DTL. If I am in CCK/BP and is travelling to NUS/one-north, I will opt for DTL/CCL. If I am at NJC, I will still take bus to ACS and Little India. However If I am at NJC, I will probably opt for DTL for Rochor and beyond.
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Congratulations to the people staying in Bukit Panjang and Bukit Timah, on the opening of the new Downtown Line stage 2.
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Citaros spotted on Sv170A and return leg to Queen Street. Mandy on Sv979
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Originally posted by AJQZC:
DTL2 rationalisation, phase 1
(From Sunday, 27 December 2015)
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DT1 Bt Panjang:
- New service 979 to Yew Tee: from BPJ LRT stn - CCK Cres (Loop), following 302's route after CCK St 52
- Extension of service 983 to BPJ LRT stn
- Amendment of services
920, 922, 975: all to start at BPJ LRT stn
(44851), 920/922 to end at BPJ MRT stn (44031)
- Minor bus stop adjustments to services 171, 970, 972
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DT5 Beauty World:
- Amendment of service 173 to serve new bus stop 42099 outside Beauty World Plaza instead of looping around Jln Anak Bukit.
DT7 Sixth Avenue:
- Service 156 to serve new bus stop 42019 opposite Sixth Avenue station.
Multi-stations:
- New short-working trip
170A, uni-directional via Queen St - Woodlands train
checkpoint.
Updated - added 156 and 170A to list.
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Originally posted by AJQZC:
DTL2 rationalisation, phase 1
(From Sunday, 27 December 2015)
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DT1 Bt Panjang:
- New service 979 to Yew Tee: from BPJ LRT stn - CCK Cres (Loop), following 302's route after CCK St 52
- Extension of service 983 to BPJ LRT stn
- Amendment of services
920, 922, 975: all to start at BPJ LRT stn
(44851), 920/922 to end at BPJ MRT stn (44031)
- Minor bus stop adjustments to services 171, 970, 972
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DT5 Beauty World:
- Amendment of service 173 to serve new bus stop 42099 outside Beauty World Plaza instead of looping around Jln Anak Bukit.
DT7 Sixth Avenue:
- Service 156 to serve new bus stop 42019 opposite Sixth Avenue station.
Multi-stations:
- New short-working trip
170A, uni-directional via Queen St - Woodlands train
checkpoint.
I dont think any of this counts for rationalisation.
Rationalisation would see some duplicative routes modified/cut as happened during NEL.
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Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:
I dont think any of this counts for rationalisation.
Rationalisation would see some duplicative routes modified/cut as happened during NEL.
Don't forget that the first phase of NEL rationalisation was to make some bus services ply nearer to those MRT stations of the line. In this case, this applies to 173 and some other Bukit Panjang bus services.
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Originally posted by Gus.chong:
Don't forget that the first phase of NEL rationalisation was to make some bus services ply nearer to those MRT stations of the line. In this case, this applies to 173 and some other Bukit Panjang bus services.
Ok. Not aware. At that point in time I didn't have much time for buses (rather was too busy building my career and I am happy I spent those years doing that).
If you remember, give the details. Would like to know more about phase 1 of NEL that was bus services to ply MRT.
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Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:
Ok. Not aware. At that point in time I didn't have much time for buses (rather was too busy building my career and I am happy I spent those years doing that).
If you remember, give the details. Would like to know more about phase 1 of NEL that was bus services to ply MRT.
Services 21 & 125 were diverted from Lavender St to Kitchener Rd and Serangoon Rd to serve Farrer Park MRT.
Services 22, 53 & 70/70M were diverted from Boundary Rd to Serangoon Central and Upp Serangoon Rd to serve Serangoon MRT.
Service 72 was diverted from Hougang Ave 4 to Hougang Central and Upp Serangoon Rd to serve Hougang MRT.
Services 130 & 139 were diverted from Lavender St to Serangoon Rd (express), Boon Keng Rd and Bendemeer Rd to serve Boon Keng MRT.
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Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:
Ok. Not aware. At that point in time I didn't have much time for buses (rather was too busy building my career and I am happy I spent those years doing that).
If you remember, give the details. Would like to know more about phase 1 of NEL that was bus services to ply MRT.
Services 21 and 125 are made to ply Kitchener Rd via Jln Besar from Bendemeer Rd and then returned to Balestier Rd via Serangoon Rd. They thus stopped near Farrer Park MRT. Previously they used to get to Balestier Rd via Lavender St directly.
Services 22, 53 and 70 all used to get to Upp Paya Lebar Rd via Boundary Rd, when Serangoon MRT opens, their routes are all curved to ply Serangoon Ctrl and Upp Serangoon Rd to get to Upp Paya Lebar Rd from Boundary Rd (22 & 53) or Yio Chu Kang Link (70).
Service 72 might have plied the stretch of Hougang Ave 4 that goes directly to Upp Serangoon Rd before. It is made to ply Hougang Ctrl (and thus stopping near Hougang MRT) before going to Upp Serangoon Rd.
Services 130 and 139 should be nearly the same as Services 21 and 125, originally using Lavender St to get to Jln Besar from Balestier Rd, they also plied a "loop" at Boon Keng Rd via Serangoon Rd and then get to Jln Besar via Bendemeer Rd just to stop near Boon Keng MRT.
These are all the amendments during Phase 1 of the NEL rationalisation. In my view, the routes all made a sharp curve to ply the NEL stations and their original routes are most likely to be more direct.
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[Maybe a bit off-topic]
Service 156 needs major improvement in frequency. It's now the only link from Sixth Avenue MRT to Sixth Ave (77/970 are a bit back-tracking) and certain parts of Holland Rd. It could have also been a fast link from Clementi to DTL (Sixth Avenue is more convenient for eastbound commuters).
However, currently 156 has disastrous frequency. Just this afternoon I waited for 25 minutes at Sixth Avenue MRT, before finally giving up.
I feel like there would be a need for some sort of 156M/156A from Clementi looping at Sixth Avenue or Tan Kah Kee MRT. (That is, if those in Sixth Ave and Holland Rd are willing to take DTL.)
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Originally posted by phillipC:
Citaros spotted on Sv170A and return leg to Queen Street. Mandy on Sv979
8032 - 979. Sadly it's appearing for that publicity ride. Indeed full to the door with MP and so.
But heard that sv979 have quite good loading. Perhaps linking YewTee residents to Junction10/BPJ Mall..another new shopping experience.
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979 need DD enough said. Rigid cnfm cannot tank pax from Yew Tee n BPJ n vice versa
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Originally posted by TIB 585L:
979 need DD enough said. Rigid cnfm cannot tank pax from Yew Tee n BPJ n vice versa
Hi mr TIB585L, this clearly shows yew tee residents really suffered too long from lack of bus services around their area. The moment a new bus service is introduced specifically for them, the crowds suggest DD must be deployed. Cheers. Thanks.
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Originally posted by dupdup77:
Hi mr TIB585L, this clearly shows yew tee residents really suffered too long from lack of bus services around their area. The moment a new bus service is introduced specifically for them, the crowds suggest DD must be deployed. Cheers. Thanks.
The irony is when i took 983 DD jz nw, it was less than 10 pax throughout the route and 6-7 DDs was deployed today but 979 is full fleet SD with 8032R n 8028D
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Originally posted by TIB 585L:
The irony is when i took 983 DD jz nw, it was less than 10 pax throughout the route and 6-7 DDs was deployed today but 979 is full fleet SD with 8032R n 8028D
Hi mr TIB585L, yes it is very ironical. They should have expected Smrt 979 to be a hit since it goes to choa Chu Kang crescent and yew tee area. Smrt 983 did not. My colleague is so overjoyed that there is a new service direct to his house at choa Chu Kang crescent after so long. Moreover it connects to bukit panjang. Cheers. Thanks.
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Originally posted by TIB 585L:
The irony is when i took 983 DD jz nw, it was less than 10 pax throughout the route and 6-7 DDs was deployed today but 979 is full fleet SD with 8032R n 8028D
8032 - 979 [Publicity Ride]
8028D - 983, 20mins early. -
From what some bus enthu said,
Sv979 takes about 10mins from Yew Tee to BPJ, quite fast and efficient compared to MRT+LRT.
However, KJE will experience jam during weekdays peak. Sv925/927 caught in the delay that usually last 5-10mins or more. Wdl Rd also quite terrible last time, without flyovers at BPJ. Hopefully, Stagmont Ring will be ready ASAP.
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Originally posted by dupdup77:
Hi mr TIB585L, yes it is very ironical. They should have expected Smrt 979 to be a hit since it goes to choa Chu Kang crescent and yew tee area. Smrt 983 did not. My colleague is so overjoyed that there is a new service direct to his house at choa chi Lang crescent after so long. Moreover it connects to bukit panjang. Cheers. Thanks.
definitely so! At night around 9pm, spotted SMB3562K was almost empty on 983, but SMB3136H on 979 already packed to the door at opp Bukit Panjang Plaza stop...
Today spotted 9 buses doing 979, suspect 7 AP and 2 TQ, and almost every bus that exit CCK/YewTee is full to the door or at least fully seated, thats during late morning and afternoon. At night, opposite direction has that situation...
At around 10am, SMB3153H (979TQ02) even skipped the last 2 stops at CCK Cres as it was too packed...
However, at YewTee MRT, when both 302 and 979 arrive, most pax still chose to board 302, possibly due to 302 having seats but 979 is fully seated already...
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Originally posted by TIB 585L:
The irony is when i took 983 DD jz nw, it was less than 10 pax throughout the route and 6-7 DDs was deployed today but 979 is full fleet SD with 8032R n 8028D
983's loading is mainly from Ave 4 and Ave 5 to CCK MRT which justify DDs and bendies. And now since DTL is open a lot of them will go to BPJ MRT also (the 983 rigid that I took had a good 30-40 pax).Though I agree 979 should get more HC buses... But 983 no need to cut fleet.
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Originally posted by TIB429E:
From what some bus enthu said,
Sv979 takes about 10mins from Yew Tee to BPJ, quite fast and efficient compared to MRT+LRT.
However, KJE will experience jam during weekdays peak. Sv925/927 caught in the delay that usually last 5-10mins or more. Wdl Rd also quite terrible last time, without flyovers at BPJ. Hopefully, Stagmont Ring will be ready ASAP.
Cannot be 10 mins... I took 17 mins from BPJ MRT to Yew Tee MRT (0906-0923). Which makes sense for DDs.