Chinese words in daily life
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
huh i dun need, you want, you start one, i will follow suit.
else, we help Rock^Star to build up his forum by doing so here oso can
ok lor.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
Good reading milestones for me! Thanks to the pointers in paragraph 2 and 3 (on Hang Tuah / Hang Jebat issue and the Hang Li Poh issue) which I had ZERO INTEREST of, from now I will go and read up and find out some things on them. Been to Melaka too, I usually not interested in culture, archaeology and anthropology unless they come secondary to the issue of the linguistic issue itself.
That's why a lot of things on culture ones, usually I don't know, and therefore I seldom talk about them too, as you can see from my posts, I usually keep to linguistic topics, with anthropological, archaeological and cultural evidences coming in secondarily (as and when) only.
About Hinghwa dialect ah, wat aspects of linguistics you want me to zoom in into? If not, at the moment, you can read a short post on Singapore Hinghwa as an introduction first:
http://www.sgforums.com/forums/3545/topics/425775?page=3#post_10203745
Perhaps, you would like start off from here by elaborating on your statement "It's like hokkien but not so hokkien." first ?
That's all i really understand haha. The link you gave me has enlightened me a little. My in laws are henghwa people but they have no idea how to speak henghwa. Yes, their roots are from putien but they have no idea how to speak it anymore. All they can tell me it's not hokkien but i guess it's close. Yeh and they are indonesians haha....the chinese language has died off during suharto's time. Dialects and languages are almost non-existent among the common Chinese family in Java but still very active in sumatra, kalimantan, sulawesi etc...Controls in those areas were not so strict then.
The chinese in java still use hokkien/mandarin terms for money and some other slang here and there but other than that, usage of the language is almost zilch.
Eg:
Good fortune - �气 (hock kee)
New year - æ–°å¹´ (sin jia)
Hari raya - Warna jia
Very delicious - 好�神�病 (hao chi shen jing bing)
Thank you - æ„Ÿè°¢(kam xia)
Congrats - æ�å–œ （gong hee; strictly to be used only during CNY)
etc etc.
Suharto has got to be up there with Hitler minus the genocides. He massacred the entire line of mandarin and chinese dialects in Java all within 30 years.
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Originally posted by Clivebenss:
ok lor.
are you able to help me to decipher the Malay words which are written in Chinese characters in this thread ?
http://luntan.zaobao.com/viewthread.php?action=printable&tid=132720
- é¸éœ¸åŒ»ä½ ，æ�€çŒªé»‘人马押拉马，马那æ¦ç¤¼ï¼Ÿ
- æ¦éƒ½ ï¼�
- �蛾下巴？
And you know what's this : "立�哟未？�
" hehehe -
Originally posted by Rock^Star:
That's all i really understand haha. The link you gave me has enlightened me a little. My in laws are henghwa people but they have no idea how to speak henghwa. Yes, their roots are from putien but they have no idea how to speak it anymore. All they can tell me it's not hokkien but i guess it's close. Yeh and they are indonesians haha....the chinese language has died off during suharto's time. Dialects and languages are almost non-existent among the common Chinese family in Java but still very active in sumatra, kalimantan, sulawesi etc...Controls in those areas were not so strict then.
The chinese in java still use hokkien/mandarin terms for money and some other slang here and there but other than that, usage of the language is almost zilch.
Eg:
Good fortune - �气 (hock kee)
New year - æ–°å¹´ (sin jia)
Hari raya - Warna jia
Very delicious - 好�神�病 (hao chi shen jing bing)
Thank you - æ„Ÿè°¢(kam xia)
Congrats - æ�å–œ （gong hee; strictly to be used only during CNY)
etc etc.
Suharto has got to be up there with Hitler minus the genocides. He massacred the entire line of mandarin and chinese dialects in Java all within 30 years.
ok, what other more info do you need to get more enlightened on henghwa ?
ya, they are right, it's not hokkien, but what made you had the initial impression that you "guess it's close" leh ?? (coz u haf not heard of it, how did u form dat impression ? - although you are right, it's close 
)All you mentioned regarding the situation in java, sumatra, kalimantan, are all correct. We talked about Bagansiapiapi in another thread before. (-populated by Hokkiens from Tong'An variety) While Medan are basically Hokkiens from ChiangChew variety - Note: While they all still speak Hokkien, I noticed the Bagansiapiapi's speak pure Tong'An Hokkien with less than 5% Bahasa Admixture, whereas most Medaner's and Palembanger's speak non-pure ChiangChew Hokkien with more than 10%-15% Bahasa Admixture). I met one from Aceh who is a Hakka, can still speak Hakka but lousy. People from Kalimantan (the one I met is from Pontianak and she told me others too) spoke Teochew to me (her Teochew is good!). Another one from Bintan speaks good Hokkien too. I met one exception: There's one from Makassar (Sulawesi), told me he's Hokkien but cannot speak any Hokkien anymore.
I am amused by "Warna Jia". Should I interpret as "the Colourful Festival" or do the Javanese Chinese think it is the "Festival for the Coloured (peoples)" leh ?? He He He
And 好�神經病, alamak, looks like a literal from Hokkien ah, izzit ? "Ho Tsiah Kau Siau"
But the thing is, if æ�å–œ is pronounced as "Gong Hee" or "Kong Hee" without the "i" in between --> eg "Giong Hee" or "Kiong Hee", then it does not sound authentic Hokkien
Ya the Suharto story is a sad story. And haizz, I also got a sad reply from the lady ler, she says that applicants need to have a good honours degree in an area relevant to linguistics la. I don't have lor, so no point liao. Heh.
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
That would be nice :) Hope this can help all chinese language enthusiasts (Dialects of china included) since they are so highly linked together.
I think now the only discussion forums for Chinese are these few ones:
http://www.sgforums.com/forums/3948
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
What other words found in bahasa? I can only think of taoge which is bean sprouts. And in Indonesia, their restaurants (need not be Chinese) will surely have the word "ca" on their menu; which means "fried" in hokkien.
Hi, may you take a look that I have scanned these data for your reference:
<< More data on Hokkien in Bahasa (of the 3 countries - Indon, M'sia, Brunei) >>
From one book :
Another book :
Good ?
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
ok, what other more info do you need to get more enlightened on henghwa ?
ya, they are right,
it's not hokkien, but what made you had the initial
impression that you "guess it's close" leh ?? (coz u haf not
heard of it, how did u form dat impression ? -
although you are right, it's close )All you mentioned regarding the situation in java, sumatra, kalimantan, are all correct. We talked about Bagansiapiapi in another thread before. (-populated by Hokkiens from Tong'An variety) While Medan are basically Hokkiens from ChiangChew variety - Note: While they all still speak Hokkien, I noticed the Bagansiapiapi's speak pure Tong'An Hokkien with less than 5% Bahasa Admixture, whereas most Medaner's and Palembanger's speak non-pure ChiangChew Hokkien with more than 10%-15% Bahasa Admixture). I met one from Aceh who is a Hakka, can still speak Hakka but lousy. People from Kalimantan (the one I met is from Pontianak and she told me others too) spoke Teochew to me (her Teochew is good!). Another one from Bintan speaks good Hokkien too. I met one exception: There's one from Makassar (Sulawesi), told me he's Hokkien but cannot speak any Hokkien anymore.
I am amused by "Warna Jia". Should I interpret as "the Colourful Festival" or do the Javanese Chinese think it is the "Festival for the Coloured (peoples)" leh ?? He He He
And 好�神經病, alamak, looks like a literal from Hokkien ah, izzit ? "Ho Tsiah Kau Siau"
But the thing is, if æ�å–œ is pronounced as "Gong Hee" or "Kong Hee" without the "i" in between --> eg "Giong Hee" or "Kiong Hee", then it does not sound authentic Hokkien
Ya the Suharto story is a sad story. And haizz, I also got a sad reply from the lady ler, she says that applicants need to have a good honours degree in an area relevant to linguistics la. I don't have lor, so no point liao. Heh.
Haha I'm not sure what I really want to know about henghwa also....well, just leave it then. Just that when I first heard it, it really sounded like new stuff. I know it's close to hokkien because my in laws use a lot of the hokkien terms like what we normally hear in sgpore.
Warna jia because it's a festival for the coloured hahaha. Indo is a racist country in a sense. The chinese call themselves "teng lang" and the local indos "warna".
As for 好�神經病, I'm not sure how it originated but the warnas understand it.
And yes, it's kiong hee....I mean. And when they say that during CNY, they must clasp both hands together in a congratulatory position, unlike us singaporeans who shake hands and say happy new year.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
I think now the only discussion forums for Chinese are these few ones:
http://www.sgforums.com/forums/3948
Lol i didn't know they actually exist....what happened to latecomerx and ndmmxiaomayi? It's a pity that most times I only see you contributing.
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
Hi, may you take a look that I have scanned these data for your reference:
<< More data on Hokkien in Bahasa (of the 3 countries - Indon, M'sia, Brunei) >>
From one book :
Another book :
Good ?
Excellent stuff. Wife's confirmed that about 50% of it are used in bahasa indo. And she was surprised herself to learn that some words are actually hokkien!
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Taken from last night's 爱：
趋炎附势 - yielding to whoever's more powerful; same as �风使舵 (tuo4)
金�玉� - of nobility or well to do background
贴切 - the closest in terms of meaning
爆料 - to expose juicy gossip / news
空å�£æ— å‡ - saying without evidence to back up
觊觎 - (ji yu4) to covet or lust after
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Taken from Sunday's 综艺大哥大：
笑里�刀 - hiding a dagger behind the smile; means to act surreptiously with evil intentions
投石问路 - throw a stone first while asking for directions; means to test waters first before venturing step by step
潜在（的天分）- the hidden (talent)
胸怀大志 - to harbour big ambitions
��凡� - extraodinary
丧家之犬 - like a dog without a master; refers to a person who's homeless
淘气 - naughty; same as 调皮
疑惑 - suspicious Eg: 疑惑心很�。
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Something to share:
I went shopping for some shirts today. Shop asst asked me if it fit (in mandarin) and I wanted to say that the buttons design is not really nice. I replied, "这个钮扣的设计ä¸�够精致。” I almost wanted to say, "这个钮扣的设计ä¸�够好看。" I guess both are fine but the former sounds better in terms of usage accuracy.
All other alternative versions are welcomed.
Another thing is I was watching some show (forgotten which), the Taiwanese guy was saying, "ä½ å°±é�žåŽ»æ‰¾ä»–ä¸�å�¯å�—？” How wld the singaporean say it? ....."ä½ ä¸€å®šè¦�去找他å�—？" Just something to share and add flexibility to our mandarin. Cheers :)
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Taken from last night's 爱：
耀æ¦æ‰¬å¨�
�胸顿足
出耳�耳
拜他所�
�头土脸
装疯�傻
处心积虑
度é‡�ç‹å°�
头�脑胀
邀功
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
Taken from last night's 爱：
趋炎附势 - yielding to whoever's more powerful; same as �风使舵 (tuo4)
金�玉� - of nobility or well to do background
贴切 - the closest in terms of meaning
爆料 - to expose juicy gossip / news
空å�£æ— å‡ - saying without evidence to back up
觊觎 - (ji yu4) to covet or lust after
That is very well explained.
- I don't even know what's 趨炎附勢 until you explained so, only know the 見風使舵
- Similarly I often heard of 金�玉葉 but dunno the meaning is like that oni until now. In the past I used to hear others often but dunno oso, eg: 峰回路轉, �號入座 etc then oni knew it after someone told me
- 貼切 i know
- 爆料 i know
- 空�無憑 i know
- I don't know what's 覬覦 oni until now
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
Taken from Sunday's 综艺大哥大：
笑里�刀 - hiding a dagger behind the smile; means to act surreptiously with evil intentions
投石问路 - throw a stone first while asking for directions; means to test waters first before venturing step by step
潜在（的天分）- the hidden (talent)
胸怀大志 - to harbour big ambitions
��凡� - extraodinary
丧家之犬 - like a dog without a master; refers to a person who's homeless
淘气 - naughty; same as 调皮
疑惑 - suspicious Eg: 疑惑心很�。
- 笑��刀 i know
- I dunno 投石�路 and I think I never have thought of this proverb again until u mention it again; i cannot say i never see b4, i could haf just seen such an entry in the dictionary b4, but don't bother; therefore i dunno the meaning oni until now
- 潛在(的天分) i know
- 胸懷大志 i know
- ��凡響 i know the meaning, but dun really know how to use in context
- 喪家之犬, i had got the wrong meaning oni until now u say it's homeless person, I used to misinterpret 喪家(之)犬 as 敗家å� lar
- 淘氣, that one i hear, but totally out of my scope for me to use it naturally; haven't naturalised yet
- 疑惑, this one i got comment, the meaning is there but the context may not be, i cannot use the term 疑惑心, to me it sounds very very strange; rather i can only use eg. XX�這件事件感到極度的疑惑 ; but rather "疑心" can match "suspicion"
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
Taken from last night's 爱：
耀æ¦æ‰¬å¨�
�胸顿足
出耳�耳
拜他所�
�头土脸
装疯�傻
处心积虑
度é‡�ç‹å°�
头�脑胀
邀功
耀æ¦æ‰¬å¨� = heard on TV, never seen on texts, i guess meaning is "show off talents" with a positive tinge in meaning (褒義詞), izzit ?
�胸顿足 = hit chest, stomp feet (like Tin Pei Ling) = meaning 無�奈何 izzit ?
出耳å��耳 ≠ 出爾å��爾 = 食言而肥
拜他所� = due to him/her (in negative tinge in meaning 貶義詞)
�头土脸 = ashy head, soily face = utterly disappointed
装疯�傻 = pretend to be unaware of real situation, like cantonese �諦 (tsa tai), hokkien �佋 (ke siau)
处心积虑 = purposefully plan with one's all-out ability to act on something that is unknown to others (in negative tinge in meaning 貶義詞)
度é‡�ç‹å°� = small 度é‡�, dunno how to explain 度é‡�, perhaps
头�脑胀 = head giddy, brain bloated = bothered by something, cannot think properly
邀功 = dunno and never hear / see b4
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
Haha I'm not sure what I really want to know about henghwa also....well, just leave it then. Just that when I first heard it, it really sounded like new stuff. I know it's close to hokkien because my in laws use a lot of the hokkien terms like what we normally hear in sgpore.
Warna jia because it's a festival for the coloured hahaha. Indo is a racist country in a sense. The chinese call themselves "teng lang" and the local indos "warna".
As for 好�神經病, I'm not sure how it originated but the warnas understand it.
And yes, it's kiong hee....I mean. And when they say that during CNY, they must clasp both hands together in a congratulatory position, unlike us singaporeans who shake hands and say happy new year.
ok, if you wan to know henghwa again den lemme know. i can explain and show it's relationship between putien and xianyou, and explain and show the henghua cluster is different from it's southern (the hokkien) and northern (the hockchew) neighbours, and their historical relation and exact points of language contacts that result in modern henghua. The henghwa in singapore is buey-zhun already, mixed with hokkien rojak, when you mentioned your in-laws mix with hokkien terms, they could be mixing hokkien terms too. Because the deep-level relationship between the henghwa language and the hokkien language is not obvious one; one has to go into deep-level phonology to unearth their relationship, so anything superficial which they seem alike, is attributed to borrowing from hokkien
Now that you have pointed out "warna" means "the local peoples / the coloured peoples", I have realized that "warna" itself is already a corruption of the original hokkien word for "people who is not like me" = 番仔 (huan-na) like what we call in Singapore (Chinese to refer to "Malays"), Malaysia (Chinese to refer to "Malays"), Taiwan (Chinese to refer to "Indigenous Aborigines") and China (Chinese to refer to "foreigners"). Type hoana in http://sealang.net/indonesia/lwim/ gives you the gloss:
hoana
1 non-Chinese people (specifically those indigenous to the Nanyang)
VARIATION: hwana
ETYMOLOGY: Amoy 番仔 hoan á Douglas1899:143b
the Indonesians are really traditional when they say "kiong hi" leh, but come to think of it, the Muslim hoanas would not want to shake hands with non-Muslim tenglang right?
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
Lol i didn't know they actually exist....what happened to latecomerx and ndmmxiaomayi? It's a pity that most times I only see you contributing.
who knows, they perhaps have moved on in their real lives to spread the chinese heritage in the wider world already, leaving the graveyard forums to those tombstone guards like me
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
Excellent stuff. Wife's confirmed that about 50% of it are used in bahasa indo. And she was surprised herself to learn that some words are actually hokkien!
can you type out the words that have fully nativized (those that she did not realise were from chinese) in her bahasa leh? this goes to show that, some chinese loanwords in bahasa has reached a stage whereby the speakers do not regard them as foreign loanwords anymore (like Japanese, Koreans & Vietnamese), such that in the future, any possible language policy that results in language cleansing (like in North Korean policy of purging Sino-Korean vocab is in effect), these stratum of vocabulary will stay relatively stable
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
Something to share:
I went shopping for some shirts today. Shop asst asked me if it fit (in mandarin) and I wanted to say that the buttons design is not really nice. I replied, "这个钮扣的设计ä¸�够精致。” I almost wanted to say, "这个钮扣的设计ä¸�够好看。" I guess both are fine but the former sounds better in terms of usage accuracy.
All other alternative versions are welcomed.
Another thing is I was watching some show (forgotten which), the Taiwanese guy was saying, "ä½ å°±é�žåŽ»æ‰¾ä»–ä¸�å�¯å�—？” How wld the singaporean say it? ....."ä½ ä¸€å®šè¦�去找他å�—？" Just something to share and add flexibility to our mandarin. Cheers :)
- 這個button的design�美leh。(Singapore style)
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
That would be nice :) Hope this can help all chinese language enthusiasts (Dialects of china included) since they are so highly linked together.
Hi, for you, the chinese language enthusiast, this is another paper, this time by æž—ç´ å¨¥, NUS, on ã€Œæ–°åŠ å�¡è�¯èªžçš„å�¥æ³•ç‰¹å¾µå�Šæˆ�å› ã€�。 A very very Singlish research paper.
For your reading pleasure:
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=3BQFRAM0
Taken from ã€Šé¦–å±†æµ·å¤–æ¼¢èªžæ–¹è¨€åœ‹éš›ç ”è¨Žæœƒè«–æ–‡é›†ã€‹, 2009 :
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
I don't know about kedai coming from the tamils lol but if have you been to indo yet? You just go to any shop and chances are the Chinese boss is in the background at a table while the workers at the shop front. I'm not surprised why the locals have decided to adopt certain words and ways of the Hokkien people.
See pg. 56, boxed-up in red portion, regarding "kedai" and others:
Source: (The Languages Of East And Southeast Asia, Cliff Goddard, 2005)
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Originally posted by BanguIzai:
ya, been to indon and it's sumatra oni & me not observant to see got chinese boss at the background leh. i agree with you dat becoz of business due to chinese that why certain words came to be adopted into indon. especially hokkien words forming the bulk of the majority due to it's sheer number in size, according to statistics cf. 1930, Percentage by dialect group of Chinese in the Netherland Indies, pg 77: Hokkien 46.7%, Hakka 16.9%, Cantonese 11.4%, Teochew 7.4%, etc., showing the Hokkien people in Indonesia (in 1930) even outnumber that of Hokkien people in Singapore by ratio already (in 1957, which is 27 years later), cf. 1957, Dialect groups as percentage of all Chinese in Singapore, pg 83: Hokkien 40.6%, Teochew 22.5%, Cantonese 18.9%, etc. In terms of absolute numbers, cf. 1930, The Chinese in Netherlands Indies, by region and dialect group, total Hokkien - 554,981 peoples (1930), compared to, cf. 1957, Dialect groups as percentage of all Chinese in Singapore, total Hokkien - 442,707 peoples (1957 - 27 years later), if you can help me to calulate the natural (b)irth-(d)eath linear growth of the Indonesian Hokkien population since 1930 to 1957 excluding immigration inflow, a big difference margin can be shown.
Other than that, the mainstay of loanwords in the Indonesia vocab are from Hokkien is due to simply that they are the 1st biggest wave of immigrants, cf pg 40, Observations on the population data:
Back to archaeology
, (cf. pg 41) tombstone inscriptions
are a dependable source of data on the early Chinese settlers in
South East Asia. The 4 earliest Chinese tombstones in South East
Asia known, as recorded by Professor Wolfgang Franke, appear to be
as follows:- Probably the earliest one is found in Brunei, and dated 1264 A.D.; this shows an unmistakable connection with Tsoanchiu, in Hokkien Province.
- The next earliest, dated 1592 A.D., is also outside our immediate area, being found in Patani, in southern Thailand. The inscription shows that it commemorates a woman, and although her precise place of origin is not ascertainable, Professor Franke informs me that almost certainly she was a Hokkien woman.
- The third oldest is found in Melaka, and dates from 1622 I know of no specific evidence that it commerates a Hokkien; but that is a reasonable assumption, as later tombstones in the same place do commemorate Hokkiens.
- Evidently the fourth oldest tombstone is that of So Bing Kong, erected in Batavia in 1644. It is known that So Bing Kong, head of the Chinese, was Hokkien.
A very good paper by Thea Sarine, å«çŽ‰å�¿ on the distribution of dialectal Chinese based on the research on Indonesian City Names:
ã€�漢語方言å°�å�°å°¼åŸŽå¸‚ä¸æ–‡å��的影響】
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=E8UC4OJV
(The pronunciation used therein followings the International Phonetic Alphabet convention. Do refer to this post if in doubt:
http://www.sgforums.com/forums/8/topics/369470#post_9268844 )Taken from ã€Šé¦–å±†æµ·å¤–æ¼¢èªžæ–¹è¨€åœ‹éš›ç ”è¨Žæœƒè«–æ–‡é›†ã€‹, 2009 :
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Originally posted by Rock^Star:
That's all i really understand haha. The link you gave me has enlightened me a little. My in laws are henghwa people but they have no idea how to speak henghwa. Yes, their roots are from putien but they have no idea how to speak it anymore. All they can tell me it's not hokkien but i guess it's close. Yeh and they are indonesians haha....the chinese language has died off during suharto's time. Dialects and languages are almost non-existent among the common Chinese family in Java but still very active in sumatra, kalimantan, sulawesi etc...Controls in those areas were not so strict then.
The chinese in java still use hokkien/mandarin terms for money and some other slang here and there but other than that, usage of the language is almost zilch.
Eg:
Good fortune - �气 (hock kee)
New year - æ–°å¹´ (sin jia)
Hari raya - Warna jia
Very delicious - 好�神�病 (hao chi shen jing bing)
Thank you - æ„Ÿè°¢(kam xia)
Congrats - æ�å–œ （gong hee; strictly to be used only during CNY)
etc etc.
Suharto has got to be up there with Hitler minus the genocides. He massacred the entire line of mandarin and chinese dialects in Java all within 30 years.
Regarding the distribution of Chinese speakers in Indonesia by City, I have uploaded this paper, 「�尼�人的語言狀��done collaboratively by 黃玉婉 & 許振�。
��尼�人的語言狀�】
http://www.megaupload.com/?d=0COI9CV3
On page 168, you can find some more Chinese loanwoard in Indonesia Bahasa.
Taken from ã€Šé¦–å±†æµ·å¤–æ¼¢èªžæ–¹è¨€åœ‹éš›ç ”è¨Žæœƒè«–æ–‡é›†ã€‹, 2009 :
Sidenote: The article matches what I have noticed about people coming from Pontianak being still able to speak good Teochew and people coming from Sulawesi, Makassar losing their dialects, as well as Bagansiapiapi having 95% concentration of Chinese resulting in lesser infiltration of Bahasa admixture.
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Ok good stuff bro. Let me digest...a bit busy these few days. Tks man.