Originally posted by Sienx:well at least a draw gives us a chance...however barca has good records on english ground carrick was poor and all the passes keep going to ronaldo...tevez nt that good today rooney was nt in the game
we got a good home record for this years CL games..we won all of them xD
Originally posted by sand king:Much more entertaining then Chel pool match... which bore the hell out of me.
indeed xD
Originally posted by Sienx:
haha pretty boring kiasu minded..but ronaldo too over confident already..can tell..scholes was the mom for me
good one, sienx.. he was the most calm and experience showed..
Carrick, and the rest were just too hurried.. even EDS's clearance kicks, aiyo..
Tevez was even guilty of holding the ball too many times..
Strangely, I should said this, owenH did not really do a good job @ RB. I hope @ OT, he can roam more.
To be fair, Barca played a smart game, short fast passes, not allowing MU to even touch the ball..Technically, I believe their players are better @ creating spaces..
In the end, MU just park bus, and try to get the ball,but losing it as fast as they get it.. No retention at all, damn sad.. Just boot to Ronaldo, and he sprints, by time, he wants to cross back, no one there. Then he get hecked, and he whines.. Aiyo..
Actually i am rather pleased with the way it went for United... Sure they might have scored from a penalty but who knows, it would have woke Barce up and their game could have been faster and they might even have scored...
I belief Fergie wanted to slow the game down and didn't want it to turn out into another lots of running and heavy physical battle type of match cos the players won't be able to take it playing this kind of football every 3, 4 days... Blackburn took alot out of the team of Sat so this was to control and not to let it get out of hand... Cos Sat is definitely a much bigger match to come... Beating Chelsea for the title is better than winning the Champions League...
In the end, I must say i am quite glad that United avoid defeat in Spain... I think Barce fell to Fergie's plan... Barce ended up playing rather slow too when we know they can actually play a very fast game like Arsenal or better...
I thing i don't like this Barcelona team is, they go down very easily... touch only fall down... very often trying to con the referee...
One thing i am rather concern about is, Barce already out of the title chase will be able to rest all their first team players over the weekend and concentrate on next Tue alone... United on the other hand have a title decider match with Chelsea over the weekend... and you can bet that match is going to have lots of running and lots of physical challenges... Thats the reason I think Anderson wasn't played last night...
Originally posted by zocoss:In the end, I must say i am quite glad that United avoid defeat in Spain... I think Barce fell to Fergie's plan... Barce ended up playing rather slow too when we know they can actually play a very fast game like Arsenal or better...
Originally posted by zocoss:I thing i don't like this Barcelona team is, they go down very easily... touch only fall down... very often trying to con the referee...
its barca's style of play. patient attacking play.
i just beg to differ the 2nd point. i think its kinda a biased remark. quite a number of times barca players tried to get up from challenges. on the other hand, i feel iniesta's claim for penalty wasn't valid.
Originally posted by iceFatboy:good one, sienx.. he was the most calm and experience showed..
Carrick, and the rest were just too hurried.. even EDS's clearance kicks, aiyo..
Tevez was even guilty of holding the ball too many times..
Strangely, I should said this, owenH did not really do a good job @ RB. I hope @ OT, he can roam more.
To be fair, Barca played a smart game, short fast passes, not allowing MU to even touch the ball..Technically, I believe their players are better @ creating spaces..
In the end, MU just park bus, and try to get the ball,but losing it as fast as they get it.. No retention at all, damn sad.. Just boot to Ronaldo, and he sprints, by time, he wants to cross back, no one there. Then he get hecked, and he whines.. Aiyo..
owenH cannot say he did nt do a good job..cos utd were more defensive during the match instead of attacking as usual so hargreavs could nt perform..and ronaldo he will of cos get fustrated cos of the lack of support by the teamates as well as the stress as so called the 1 man show for united
Originally posted by Sienx:
owenH cannot say he did nt do a good job..cos utd were more defensive during the match instead of attacking as usual so hargreavs could nt perform..and ronaldo he will of cos get fustrated cos of the lack of support by the teamates as well as the stress as so called the 1 man show for united
haha, he was just so fustrated.
Originally posted by alwaysdisturbed:
haha, he was just so fustrated.
lol nt only him me and my dad was scolding f*** all around saying no support manutd kiasu..all this lol
Originally posted by Sienx:
lol nt only him me and my dad was scolding f*** all around saying no support manutd kiasu..all this lol
no offence. but i was very happy to see him get fustrated every now and then during the match, especially when he starts showing stupid actions on the pitch to display his unhappiness.
Originally posted by alwaysdisturbed:no offence. but i was very happy to see him get fustrated every now and then during the match, especially when he starts showing stupid actions on the pitch to display his unhappiness.
lol don worry i was also laughing when he started to show those fustrations and stupid actions should have jus woke up and continue with the game
Originally posted by Sienx:
lol don worry i was also laughing when he started to show those fustrations and stupid actions should have jus woke up and continue with the game
he should really grow up and be mature on that.
Anyone noticed that we have the exact same stats as them this year?
Same amount of wins and losses, and goals scored and conceded in the CL.
Originally posted by Pitot:Anyone noticed that we have the exact same stats as them this year?
Same amount of wins and losses, and goals scored and conceded in the CL.
i think someone already mentioned it earlier in this thread.
Originally posted by 4getmenot:Maybe ppl forget that we still have a REALLY CRUCIAL NEXT FIXTURE against Chelsea which can determine who will end up as EPL Champions.. its not surprising that SAF chose to rest nani and brought him out late and letting anderson have a break. Between Chelsea and Barcelona.. who would i prefer to lose to.. definitely not to Chelsea and i think most devil fans would agree...a win against Chelsea will spur us to beat Barca in the return leg and head into the finals without the need to think about the EPL fixtures anymore unless someone is telling me that it is possible that Chelsea would score 18 goals in the remaining 2 fixtures to them on level with us on goal difference.. :D
when going forward, rooney/.. well can;t blame him.. he was doing a part time left back..while park was doing a part time right back...We played like crap..Ronaldo fell too easily.. Tevez was poor losing possession Owen fitness looks a doubt to me..he can defence, but to use him as a right back winger is not possible (too slow)..carrick was half asleep..brown caught by surprise ..Rio and VDS and scholes were solid..
we went to nou camp..and i cannot say i am upset with the result, although the penalty miss was a surprise..
Dropped by red cafe and was amused by the so called devil hardcores who seem to think they know more than Saf...Pique for Park in 2nd half and bring owen upfield? (As if that would have made a difference..) Ultimate Suicide...i'm glad they hang out at that forum and not elsewhere.. xD
Chelsea determines who ends up as Premiership Champions. Barcelona determines who gets a shot at the biggest prize in Europe. So that's a good decision to rest key players (or rather, adopt silly defensive tactics which have backfired ever so often) in the first leg?
Fact of the matter is, United can afford a defeat at Chelsea and the title race is still in their hands (their goal difference is far superior to Chelsea's). On the other hand, United can ill-afford a goalless draw in an away game of the Champions League (well, less so than a defeat against Chelsea anyway).
If you're old enough to remember the encounters against Dortmund('97), Monaco('98) and Leverkusen('02), you might just understand how important away goals are. Funnily enough, for all the times when United have been booted on away goals in the Champions League, they have never won a tie by the away goals in the Champions League. For the record, it did certainly sound like a joke when Ferguson famously advocated playing for a 0-0 in Monaco suggesting they'd "get the job done" at home.
That's what Ferguson will be remembered for - a manager who was peerless in the domestic game, but never quite got it right at the highest level. As far as Europe goes, it's a classic case of always being the bridesmaid, but never the bride.
While I am more than happy to stand corrected, I am expecting another heartbreaking script all too familiar and happens too quickly come next Tuesday - in the meantime, expect more quarter and semi-final appearances under Ferguson because that's all that will ever happen.
Some people may have too high an expectation of United... They think just going to Barce's home ground and a win is a given... This is Barcelona, not some lousy squad... This is an experience team that badly wanted a win last night to take to OT. There was 90,000 hostile fans screaming whenever United players get the ball... This wasn't an easy match to play but they have done a good job coming out of it 0 - 0.
I feel that some people are just frustrated that United didn't win in Spain... But they failed to see the fact that Barce is still a very strong team especial at home. Last night match against United was the first CL match they have not won at home this season... They have beaten Lyon 3-0, Rangers 2-0, Stuttgart 3-1, Celtic 1-0 and Schalke 04 1-0... We can see they have a great CL record at home therefore United not only avoiding defeat but also deny them any goal which in itself is a good result for them...
I think Fergie didn't just look at this match for his team selection as well as the tactics employed... Leaving Anderson out was a sign of not wanting this match to get too fast as well as keeping him fresh for Chelsea. As the 1st team manager he had to think about their fore coming matches as well... especially when they are all so close to each other... United will have to play 3 important matches in 6 days. That is alot to demand even from top level players... We can bet that their Chelsea match is going to be a fast and physical encounter with lots of running... so they will have to try and balance it...
Another thing is... Chelsea don't determine who end up as Premiership Champions... Its only they have a say just like United equally does too... And Barcelona definitely don't determines who goes into the final of the CL too, they just have an equal chance just like United do as well.
Lastly, I do belief should United lose at Stamford Bridge, they won't be EPL Champions. So that match is very important to them... Forget about the goal difference, it won't really matter... If they lose at Stamford Bridge, confidence will fall, pressure will build-up on players minds... and they will be very nervous going into those 2 games which they will not get 6 points from them.
Originally posted by zocoss:Some people may have too high an expectation of United... They think just going to Barce's home ground and a win is a given... This is Barcelona, not some lousy squad... This is an experience team that badly wanted a win last night to take to OT. There was 90,000 hostile fans screaming whenever United players get the ball... This wasn't an easy match to play but they have done a good job coming out of it 0 - 0.
I feel that some people are just frustrated that United didn't win in Spain... But they failed to see the fact that Barce is still a very strong team especial at home. Last night match against United was the first CL match they have not won at home this season... They have beaten Lyon 3-0, Rangers 2-0, Stuttgart 3-1, Celtic 1-0 and Schalke 04 1-0... We can see they have a great CL record at home therefore United not only avoiding defeat but also deny them any goal which in itself is a good result for them...
Seriously, are you suggesting Lyon (worth remembering this season's Lyon is not the one from seasons gone by), Rangers, Stuttgart, Celtic and Schalke are teams you consider to be genuine contenders for the Champions League? By the same token, perhaps United should just enjoy a ride for having come this far since we should just settle for lesser accolades like any other team out there.
0-0 is a good result? The second leg will tell...maybe it is, if we considered making the Champions League final a bonus. United can certainly do with a dose of hunger and ambition exemplified by some of those who plied their trade in the 90's - Roy Keane's probably the last of that breed...
not to mention we still got a boogie team - west ham fixture.. xD.. Saf leaving our Andersonas someone mentioned to not hasten the game could have being right..becuze if we did that and loose the ball.. we might end up suffering in the counter attack..
whether at the end of the day, SAF move was a right choice or not , we will never know..becuz even if the line up was different, we could have ended up with a lost instead of a gain.. lets all wait till the home fixture and chelsea fixture shall we and hope for the best :)
Originally posted by walesa:
Seriously, are you suggesting Lyon (worth remembering this season's Lyon is not the one from seasons gone by), Rangers, Stuttgart, Celtic and Schalke are teams you consider to be genuine contenders for the Champions League? By the same token, perhaps United should just enjoy a ride for having come this far since we should just settle for lesser accolades like any other team out there.
0-0 is a good result? The second leg will tell...maybe it is, if we considered making the Champions League final a bonus. United can certainly do with a dose of hunger and ambition exemplified by some of those who plied their trade in the 90's - Roy Keane's probably the last of that breed...
perhaps a read -> http://blogs.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/04/25/conservative_and_cavalier_unit.html
yes, MUFC should have scored the penalty and taken a precious away goal, but hey, the game is over .
So what can SAF do? Condemn and break the spirit of the players or balance by saying it is okie at least they have a chance?
Football is played on the field, but there are also other factors in morale, mental aspects. And what's SAF's key now? To boost his players up for the crucial next few games right?
Yes, we should have got an away goal, but hey, to do that would have left bigger holes and I believe MUFC may have ended the 1st leg even worse than a chance to even make up in 2nd Leg.
And I resent this -> As far as Europe goes, it's a classic case of always being the bridesmaid, but never the bride.
Who in EPL is doing better?? A ever rotating Liverpool which sole aim is to get 4th and challenge for UCL? Chelsea? Arsenal?
Lastly, let's wait for the referee to blow the end of 2nd leg before we go any further, shall we?
Originally posted by walesa:
Seriously, are you suggesting Lyon (worth remembering this season's Lyon is not the one from seasons gone by), Rangers, Stuttgart, Celtic and Schalke are teams you consider to be genuine contenders for the Champions League? By the same token, perhaps United should just enjoy a ride for having come this far since we should just settle for lesser accolades like any other team out there.
0-0 is a good result? The second leg will tell...maybe it is, if we considered making the Champions League final a bonus. United can certainly do with a dose of hunger and ambition exemplified by some of those who plied their trade in the 90's - Roy Keane's probably the last of that breed...
Yes Serious... The problem is you seem to disregard almost every team that doesn't have a history of doing well in this competition it seems... Its giving me the impression that only the AC Milan, The Real Mardrid matters to you but apparently not even The Barcelonas...
What is so wrong with the Lyon, Rangers, Stuttgart, Celtic and Schalke? So they are not the biggest club but that doesn't mean they are hopeless sides... If Celtic can beat AC Milan this season and Man Utd last, I don't see why they can't cause a problem to anyone... And Lyon, They are still very much the French champions and are currently leading in the French Ligue 1 and is expected to be crown champions again in the French league very soon...
Lets not forget something, was the Monaco or Porto side given half a chance to get to the final? No but apparently they not only did but one went on to win it as well... Was Bayer Leverkusen expected to get into the final in 2002? The point is... at this level, every team has a chance. To disregard these "smaller team" is silly.
To say Man United just having to going to Barce's home ground and a win is a given... is totally disrespectful to the opponent in my views... Barcelona could very well win this competition you know... There is no shame even if they lose to Barce, cos every year there could only be one winner... so how about the Real Mardrids, the AC Milans...?
Yes, i repeat it again... 0 - 0 is indeed a good result from the nou camp... No other team has gone away without conceding a goal there this season... If you care to read the Barce's camp feeling after the match, they are disappointed that they didn't got anything to take to OT... They all felt they deserved to win but did not... Weather its relevant or not its another matter... More importantly is it start both teams on a level footing with United having the advantage of a home ground support...
When you mentioned Roy, it was a totally different time and scenario... If United played the first leg at home and they drew 0-0, then yes they needed to go away and attack and win or get a score draw... But in this case, the first leg is away so the plan could be different. Bearing in mind that they have Chelsea waiting in 3 days time...
In any other European league, winning the champions league would be the biggest prize but not in England... Winning the Premier League is still the most important prize... You can see from the number of EPL sides in the CL semi finals... even Arsenal isn't very far away... hunger and ambition need to be balance with players health condition as well... going gung ho all the way may get you nothing in the end...
Originally posted by zocoss:
Yes Serious... The problem is you seem to disregard almost every team that doesn't have a history of doing well in this competition it seems... Its giving me the impression that only the AC Milan, The Real Mardrid matters to you but apparently not even The Barcelonas...What is so wrong with the Lyon, Rangers, Stuttgart, Celtic and Schalke? So they are not the biggest club but that doesn't mean they are hopeless sides... If Celtic can beat AC Milan this season and Man Utd last, I don't see why they can't cause a problem to anyone... And Lyon, They are still very much the French champions and are currently leading in the French Ligue 1 and is expected to be crown champions again in the French league very soon...
Lets not forget something, was the Monaco or Porto side given half a chance to get to the final? No but apparently they not only did but one went on to win it as well... Was Bayer Leverkusen expected to get into the final in 2002? The point is... at this level, every team has a chance. To disregard these "smaller team" is silly.
To say Man United just having to going to Barce's home ground and a win is a given... is totally disrespectful to the opponent in my views... Barcelona could very well win this competition you know... There is no shame even if they lose to Barce, cos every year there could only be one winner... so how about the Real Mardrids, the AC Milans...?
Yes, i repeat it again... 0 - 0 is indeed a good result from the nou camp... No other team has gone away without conceding a goal there this season... If you care to read the Barce's camp feeling after the match, they are disappointed that they didn't got anything to take to OT... They all felt they deserved to win but did not... Weather its relevant or not its another matter... More importantly is it start both teams on a level footing with United having the advantage of a home ground support...
When you mentioned Roy, it was a totally different time and scenario... If United played the first leg at home and they drew 0-0, then yes they needed to go away and attack and win or get a score draw... But in this case, the first leg is away so the plan could be different. Bearing in mind that they have Chelsea waiting in 3 days time...
In any other European league, winning the champions league would be the biggest prize but not in England... Winning the Premier League is still the most important prize... You can see from the number of EPL sides in the CL semi finals... even Arsenal isn't very far away... hunger and ambition need to be balance with players health condition as well... going gung ho all the way may get you nothing in the end...
The fact of the matter here is not about estimating a team's chance of winning the Champions League or the fact that "smaller" teams will probably find the odds stacked more heavily against them (more so than teams with the financial clout anyway) than the big guns.
Going by your analogy, are we supposed to assume McDonald's should be pleased if they were doing just marginally better than your neighbourhood burger seller who operates on a significantly smaller budget and obviously runs on a much smaller scale? By the same token, there probably is a reason why standards are sky-high at the big clubs. After all, you don't hear of managers getting the boot for finishing 2nd in their domestic leagues at the lesser teams, do you? Lyon may be well on their way to yet another French league - well, the same could be said about the Old Firm since their hegemony of their domestic league has remained since time immemorial - but what are you trying to suggest? Teams like Lyon, Celtic, Rangers, Stuttgart and Schalke are genuine Champions League contenders and the fact Barcelona's beaten them should be indicative of their strength (and perhaps, justify United's 0-0 draw as a good result)? Every team may have a chance (even I fancy my chances if I bought the lottery - who doesn't?), but it's not rocket science that reality would dictate not every team is equally good.
Sure, on the basis of your argument, getting a 0-0 at the Nou Camp may be a better result than getting a 0-0 at Ibrox or Parkhead, but how is that coming any closer to justifying what is still a poor result for a team that aspires to win the Champions League and not simply make up the numbers? For the record, at no stage did I suggest going to the Nou Camp and win was a divine right (where you get this idea is beyond me). That said, you must be living in your own world to think getting a 0-0 draw away from home at one of the top sides in Europe is a good result (look, it's not just the result here - the fact they played for such a result which Ferguson has since alluded to after the match just adds insult to injury) in terms of Champions League progression.
And before you decide to quote me out of context, I was talking about Keano's comments in general - the fact he never let his guard down and always demanded the best from those around him. Was it not his tirade after a 4-1 defeat at Boro that woke United up in a late charge for the title, albeit futile? Perhaps, you and I belong to different generations of United fans. Or perhaps, you've just come to accept the notion it's "alright" to settle for second - that is clearly not the case for a significant number of fans to begin with.
For your last point, let's set the record straight - the Premiership is the most important prize in terms of the revenue it generates (which explains why the basement boys are absolutely desperate to avoid the drop even at the expense of sacrificing cup competitions they have no realistic chance of winning anyway), and not in terms of prestige. If a side is prioritising trophies on the basis of realistic expectations, it's one thing. It's quite ludicrous to suggest any team would, if they could and had to pick one trophy over the other, regard the Premiership as the bigger prize than the Champions League.
In short, perhaps Kevin Blackwell sums it up best when he said "You just have to accept it. There are people in life who have got a Rolls Royce while some people have a Mini.". Just because you think it's a great achievement to make the semis and anything beyond that is a bonus, I wouldn't subscribe to the notion actually echoes the sentiments of other United fans.
As for the merits of the 0-0 in terms of the tie, we'll see soon enough if that's sufficient to see United through although my gut feeling suggests it'd be a sense of deja vu all over again...
Originally posted by walesa:
The fact of the matter here is not about estimating a team's chance of winning the Champions League or the fact that "smaller" teams will probably find the odds stacked more heavily against them (more so than teams with the financial clout anyway) than the big guns.
Going by your analogy, are we supposed to assume McDonald's should be pleased if they were doing just marginally better than your neighbourhood burger seller who operates on a significantly smaller budget and obviously runs on a much smaller scale? By the same token, there probably is a reason why standards are sky-high at the big clubs. After all, you don't hear of managers getting the boot for finishing 2nd in their domestic leagues at the lesser teams, do you? Lyon may be well on their way to yet another French league - well, the same could be said about the Old Firm since their hegemony of their domestic league has remained since time immemorial - but what are you trying to suggest? Teams like Lyon, Celtic, Rangers, Stuttgart and Schalke are genuine Champions League contenders and the fact Barcelona's beaten them should be indicative of their strength (and perhaps, justify United's 0-0 draw as a good result)? Every team may have a chance (even I fancy my chances if I bought the lottery - who doesn't?), but it's not rocket science that reality would dictate not every team is equally good.
Sure, on the basis of your argument, getting a 0-0 at the Nou Camp may be a better result than getting a 0-0 at Ibrox or Parkhead, but how is that coming any closer to justifying what is still a poor result for a team that aspires to win the Champions League and not simply make up the numbers? For the record, at no stage did I suggest going to the Nou Camp and win was a divine right (where you get this idea is beyond me). That said, you must be living in your own world to think getting a 0-0 draw away from home at one of the top sides in Europe is a good result (look, it's not just the result here - the fact they played for such a result which Ferguson has since alluded to after the match just adds insult to injury) in terms of Champions League progression.
And before you decide to quote me out of context, I was talking about Keano's comments in general - the fact he never let his guard down and always demanded the best from those around him. Was it not his tirade after a 4-1 defeat at Boro that woke United up in a late charge for the title, albeit futile? Perhaps, you and I belong to different generations of United fans. Or perhaps, you've just come to accept the notion it's "alright" to settle for second - that is clearly not the case for a significant number of fans to begin with.
For your last point, let's set the record straight - the Premiership is the most important prize in terms of the revenue it generates (which explains why the basement boys are absolutely desperate to avoid the drop even at the expense of sacrificing cup competitions they have no realistic chance of winning anyway), and not in terms of prestige. If a side is prioritising trophies on the basis of realistic expectations, it's one thing. It's quite ludicrous to suggest any team would, if they could and had to pick one trophy over the other, regard the Premiership as the bigger prize than the Champions League.
In short, perhaps Kevin Blackwell sums it up best when he said "You just have to accept it. There are people in life who have got a Rolls Royce while some people have a Mini.". Just because you think it's a great achievement to make the semis and anything beyond that is a bonus, I wouldn't subscribe to the notion actually echoes the sentiments of other United fans.
As for the merits of the 0-0 in terms of the tie, we'll see soon enough if that's sufficient to see United through although my gut feeling suggests it'd be a sense of deja vu all over again...
Yup, going by my analogy, the last time i checked, football is still football... Its played by 11 men for over 90 mins... Its definitely not a restaurant serving beef or chicken between pieces of bread... These are real human beings... each individual has different level of skill... different level of fitness and they are also prone to everything like injuries and of course weariness just like you and me... We are comparing football squad of men and certainly not between 2 systematic matter.
Since you used a restaurant as your subject, I shall try to make my point from it... You take Mc donalds and compare it to a French restaurant... If someone falls sick or to weariness, its easy to replace him... Any 16 years old can come in, train for a few hours and he is ready to go and grill some meat... But in a French restaurant, if a top chief falls ill or for some reason he cannot whip up a cuisine (due to overworked), you cannot just pick up any dick, tom or harry to replace him can you... They must be specially trained and even then it may still not get you the same result as the original right...
What i am saying is players are humans, not machines... They need sufficient rest in order to perform at their highest level... Footballers are like skilled workers, each individual brings something different to the table or in this case, field... Its up to the boss or manager to balance the "workers" workload and try to make sure they can give their best when called upon again very soon.
On the lesser clubs, what I am suggesting is teams like Lyon, Celtic, Rangers, Stuttgart and Schalke are not easy opponents... I have already mentioned that some of them can and has beaten clubs that by your own words have, sky-high standards or big clubs... Its not an impossible thing you know... I have pointed out to you about Monaco and Porto... They have shown that it can be done...
Now i just have to ask you this... I belief it can help clear up a lot of our difference in opinion... Is Barcelona a small club to you firstly? If it is then that could explain your frustration in United failing to win or score or your disappointment with a 0-0 scoreline... But if you think they are a big club with sky-high standards, then wouldn't a 0-0 scoreline be consider good? Let me just say this again, Barcelona players as well as president is disappointed that they didn't get anything out of the match despite having about 70% of possession... So if the home side is disappointed and the visitors are not happy, then who should be the happier of them ?
Is it a fact Keano never let his guard down? I am not too sure about this... he is also human you know... You want to know what i think of his behaviour... he was a great player for united no doubt but going on a rant like that at that point wasn't helping anyone especially the squad... Coincidentally after Fergie made a brave decision to relief him of the captaincy and "released" him from the squad altogether did they started to play better again... and not because of his rants...
I feel you seem to contradict yourself in some ways... First you say this, "For the record, at no stage did I suggest going to the Nou Camp and win was a divine right (where you get this idea is beyond me)."
Then... "but how is that coming any closer to justifying what is still a poor result for a team that aspires to win the Champions League" - "That said, you must be living in your own world to think getting a 0-0 draw away from home at one of the top sides in Europe is a good result" - "you've just come to accept the notion it's "alright" to settle for second "
Let me tell you, in sports you can never be first all your life... Sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. Simple as that... Demanding that they win at all cost is simply an impossible thing...
On the last point, yeah... let's set the record straight - I don't think the Premiership is the most important prize in terms of the revenue it generates... I belief the CL rewards is more in terms of prize money and the Premiership a little lesser... But like i have said, if in any other European league, the CL is more important but in England its still the Premiership that matters... Cos beating the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal and Pool to the title is far more gratifying.
Lastly, I never mention it's a great achievement to make the semis and anything beyond that is a bonus, all i feel is as long as they tried and go as far as they can, they have done enough. Remember what i have said, in sports you can never be first all your life... sometimes you just have to accept defeat graciously and look forward to another season... Even if the 0-0 isn't enough, it still doesn't change my support for the club or the team... My belief is Fergie has tried to balance the squad which has to play 3 very tough and important games in 6 days. Therefore certain players and style was adopted.
Originally posted by zocoss:
Yup, going by my analogy, the last time i checked, football is still football... Its played by 11 men for over 90 mins... Its definitely not a restaurant serving beef or chicken between pieces of bread... These are real human beings... each individual has different level of skill... different level of fitness and they are also prone to everything like injuries and of course weariness just like you and me... We are comparing football squad of men and certainly not between 2 systematic matter.
Since you used a restaurant as your subject, I shall try to make my point from it... You take Mc donalds and compare it to a French restaurant... If someone falls sick or to weariness, its easy to replace him... Any 16 years old can come in, train for a few hours and he is ready to go and grill some meat... But in a French restaurant, if a top chief falls ill or for some reason he cannot whip up a cuisine (due to overworked), you cannot just pick up any dick, tom or harry to replace him can you... They must be specially trained and even then it may still not get you the same result as the original right...
What i am saying is players are humans, not machines... They need sufficient rest in order to perform at their highest level... Footballers are like skilled workers, each individual brings something different to the table or in this case, field... Its up to the boss or manager to balance the "workers" workload and try to make sure they can give their best when called upon again very soon.
On the lesser clubs, what I am suggesting is teams like Lyon, Celtic, Rangers, Stuttgart and Schalke are not easy opponents... I have already mentioned that some of them can and has beaten clubs that by your own words have, sky-high standards or big clubs... Its not an impossible thing you know... I have pointed out to you about Monaco and Porto... They have shown that it can be done...
Now i just have to ask you this... I belief it can help clear up a lot of our difference in opinion... Is Barcelona a small club to you firstly? If it is then that could explain your frustration in United failing to win or score or your disappointment with a 0-0 scoreline... But if you think they are a big club with sky-high standards, then wouldn't a 0-0 scoreline be consider good? Let me just say this again, Barcelona players as well as president is disappointed that they didn't get anything out of the match despite having about 70% of possession... So if the home side is disappointed and the visitors are not happy, then who should be the happier of them ?
Is it a fact Keano never let his guard down? I am not too sure about this... he is also human you know... You want to know what i think of his behaviour... he was a great player for united no doubt but going on a rant like that at that point wasn't helping anyone especially the squad... Coincidentally after Fergie made a brave decision to relief him of the captaincy and "released" him from the squad altogether did they started to play better again... and not because of his rants...
I feel you seem to contradict yourself in some ways... First you say this, "For the record, at no stage did I suggest going to the Nou Camp and win was a divine right (where you get this idea is beyond me)."
Then... "but how is that coming any closer to justifying what is still a poor result for a team that aspires to win the Champions League" - "That said, you must be living in your own world to think getting a 0-0 draw away from home at one of the top sides in Europe is a good result" - "you've just come to accept the notion it's "alright" to settle for second "
Let me tell you, in sports you can never be first all your life... Sometimes you win and sometimes you don't. Simple as that... Demanding that they win at all cost is simply an impossible thing...
On the last point, yeah... let's set the record straight - I don't think the Premiership is the most important prize in terms of the revenue it generates... I belief the CL rewards is more in terms of prize money and the Premiership a little lesser... But like i have said, if in any other European league, the CL is more important but in England its still the Premiership that matters... Cos beating the likes of Chelsea, Arsenal and Pool to the title is far more gratifying.
Lastly, I never mention it's a great achievement to make the semis and anything beyond that is a bonus, all i feel is as long as they tried and go as far as they can, they have done enough. Remember what i have said, in sports you can never be first all your life... sometimes you just have to accept defeat graciously and look forward to another season... Even if the 0-0 isn't enough, it still doesn't change my support for the club or the team... My belief is Fergie has tried to balance the squad which has to play 3 very tough and important games in 6 days. Therefore certain players and style was adopted.
Football is football. Chelsea comprises of 11 men, so too do Barnsley. Maybe you would like to explain why Barnsley weren't touted as the even-money joint-favourites in the FA Cup clash earlier in the season? Were the sportsbooks out of their mind to rate Barnsley as 10/1 outsiders for the tie?
I haven't got a clue if you have some serious issues with basic comprehension - either that, or you must be reading into things invisible to anyone else. What has fatigue or fitness got to do with the disdainfully defensive display on show at the Nou Camp? Mind, most of the top players actually featured. So are you chastising Ferguson for picking tired players, and therefore accounting for the 0-0 draw? Or was the 0-0 more a consequence of what was effectively a staged and planned display where defence was of paramount importance (a point which Ferguson has since alluded to post-match)?
Back to the point. Granted, those "lesser" teams you mentioned stand a chance. What does that show, really? They can win, but would, in all probability, do so less often than the big guns. Is that not a simple matter of probability? After all, would you not like to explain why the G14 clubs - combined - have amassed a Champions League (I include the record in the old European Cup in that assessment) trophy haul that amounts to more than half the number of Champions League campaigns since the tournament first started in the mid-50s? And since when do such clubs pride themselves on just claiming a "lesser" side for a scalp?
Seriously, what's the geist of all this "small club can win" talk all about? I never once said small clubs can't upset the odds, did I? Fact of the matter is, like it or not (and dispute it whatever way you want, but the facts obviously won't back you up) suggest "small clubs" succeed at a frequency far lower than their bigger counterparts. Hence, why should the biggest clubs out there settle for claiming the scalp of the small fries?
Now, back to your point about Barcelona being a big club - a big club sure they are. I'm not sure if my point is still lost on you. Obviously, in any game of football, someone's going to win at the expense of their opponents (well, in this context, someone has to qualify at the expense of the other) - big or small club, you don't expect any rational fan to be happy with elimination! That said and done, are you seriously suggesting going to the Nou Camp with a defensive-approach, not trying to get the away goal is what you'd come to expect of a side that aims to win the Champions League (or are you suggesting United are actually happy to just make the semis?) ?
The fact of the matter here is not about whether you simply get the result in the end - if you're into sports with the results being your solitary concern, you're better off following the financial markets. The geist of the point here is, United simply didn't play with the intent (playing on the counter-attack is hardly playing to win, is it?) to win and they deservedly didn't.
You could go on about being pleased they have given their all (what that "all" means is anyone's guess) and pat yourself on the back for backing a side that you reckon has done well. All said and done, and taking your words at face value, I'd rather be supporting a team that plays to win - and loses - than one that chooses to bore the hell out of (that's what the performance on Wednesday was) football purists on the back of a silly strategy that looks set to backfire.
If you're even old enough to remember Monaco back in '98, you may better appreciate the point I'm going on about. If you aren't, that just about sums up our differences - obviously, your memory of Keane will be very different from mine if all you remember about him was his post-Boro tirade.