Gang-raped, yet woman gets 6 months' jail, 200 lashes
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you still don't get it do you .... we're not talking about cultural superiority here ...Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Lazerlordz: I am not concuring with the 200 lashes and what that entails. Btw, have you seen a woman hanged for drug offences? Now that's a death penalty mind you. I see no cultural superiority, in this case. I do not agree on taking point samples and imposing claims of cultural superiority.
we are talking about absolute, universal values and ethics ! ....
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Woman gets ganged raped... judge punish all parties... prostitution in Saudi Arabia.... are all because of American culture???!!!! You have very good imagination... I can't keep up....Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:American culture is global. Come up, wake up yourself. Everybody got TV and in fact you can satellite TV in Saudi Arabia.
The woman was a prostitute la. Don't you get it? The judge punished all parties. Take your blinkers off man. -
To place my views in context, I am no keen supporter of the death penalty as well.Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Lazerlordz: I am not concuring with the 200 lashes and what that entails. Btw, have you seen a woman hanged for drug offences? Now that's a death penalty mind you. I see no cultural superiority, in this case. I do not agree on taking point samples and imposing claims of cultural superiority. -
hmmm is there such a thing as "absolute, universal values and ethics"?Originally posted by Fatum:you still don't get it do you .... we're not talking about cultural superiority here ...
we are talking about absolute, universal values and ethics ! .... -
since when is rape not "wrong " .....Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:hmmm is there such a thing as "absolute, universal values and ethics"? -
You see, modernisation theory may not always work if there is little avenue for change internally should interested parties want to. It depends on the cost-benefit analysis here. The space for debate about such things in Saudi Arabia is not large enough for a gradual wriggling about with regards to these statutes.Originally posted by udontknowme:im not saying that it's right. but neither will i say it's wrong. who are we to say what is fair or what is right? what are we basing it all on? and why do we see it as unfair? what have we been learning/studying/etc in singapore? what have we been exposed to? what are our laws here? we have we seen?
why do we consider it wrong that women in certain places have absolutely no right at all? why do we interfere? why do we impose what we think is right onto other people? why must we change another country's culture just because it is 'wrong' according to 'us'.
trust me, i hate it that things like this are going on. but if anything's going to change, i'm gonig to leave it to the people in that country to make the change. not let other people from other countries come in and 'mess things up' in order to try and 'fix' it.
Some things are inevitably universal, and a stand has to be made eventually.
Brings to mind "Responsibility to Protect" too. Though I would agree that while the world should lobby against such practices, their role should be limited to creating that lil space for domestic activists to work in, and not attempt to replace them. -
it's something many people believe in/are trying to achieve...but really, for now, nope.....Originally posted by AndrewPKYap:hmmm is there such a thing as "absolute, universal values and ethics"? -
If you're from the Janjaweed and you're doing it to the Fur and Massalit people in Darfur apparently.Originally posted by Fatum:since when is rape not "wrong " ..... -
in certain parts of the northern part of canada...Originally posted by Fatum:since when is rape not "wrong " .....
i remember studying for a test last week and i was like...
when i saw that some inuit men can just grab any woman they 'like' and erm...fark them...
and im sure in other parts of the world there are people like that too. in fact im quite sure there is at least one group where they women can choose which men they wanna have sex with....(but maybe this one is not 'rape') -
an orgy is not a rape my dear ....Originally posted by udontknowme:in certain parts of the northern part of canada...
i remember studying for a test last week and i was like... when i saw that some inuit men can just grab any woman they 'like' and erm...fark them... -
for someone who's a vocal activist about certain issues such as the death penalty and section 377A ... I think you're contradicting yourself bro ...Originally posted by LazerLordz:It depends on the cost-benefit analysis here. The space for debate about such things in Saudi Arabia is not large enough for a gradual wriggling about with regards to these statutes.
Some things are inevitably universal, and a stand has to be made eventually.
Brings to mind "Responsibility to Protect" too. Though I would agree that while the world should lobby against such practices, their role should be limited to creating that lil space for domestic activists to work in, and not attempt to replace them.
especially that last bit about domestic activists and not attempting to replace them, and " modernisation theory may not always work if there is little avenue for change internally should interested parties want to."
I do remember you saying something about the community of nations and responsibilities and all that ... so what gives ? ... so it's alright to agitate to for democracy and to end the death penalty and decriminalize gay sex via international pressure but not ..... this ? ...
or is this "relative" also ? .. -
Fatum: This is called analysis. The judge concluded she was guilty, hence the punishment. I defer to his authority on this matter because he is an embedded scholar of law. On closer analysis, I concur that I was wrong in stating that he concluded she was a prostitute. That was how I read his verdict. It may likely be that his verdict was based on the crime of "close proximity with non-close male relations", which I did not consider a crime on first reading. I concur with this verdict because events upheld the premise the law.Originally posted by Fatum:where was it stated anywhere that the judge, or anyone else, other than yourself, that the woman was a prostitute ? ... was it your judgement or the judges ? ... -
Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Fatum: This is called analysis. The judge concluded she was guilty, hence the punishment. I defer to his authority on this matter because he is an embedded scholar of law. On closer analysis, I concur that I was wrong in stating that he concluded she was a prostitute. That was how I read his verdict. It may likely be that his verdict was based on the crime of "close proximity with non-close male relations", which I did not consider a crime on first reading. I concur with this verdict because events upheld the premise the law.
so now you're thinking eh ? ....Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:You dogs go think first before you growl.
let's put it this way, whether a woman flashes her boobs at you from her spaghetti top, or flash you some ankel beneath her burqa, it is still WRONG to force yourself upon her, period ! ...
for you to concur with this sort of verdict, I loathe to imagine how you'd treat your wifey/girlfriend .... -
Oh I see... you are referring to "rape" and not a general ""absolute, universal values and ethics"Originally posted by Fatum:since when is rape not "wrong " ..... -
what about rape, plunder and burn as a war "tactic"?
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Let me clarify. Rape is rape, there's no excuse for this heinous crimeOriginally posted by Fatum:for someone who's a vocal activist about certain issues such as the death penalty and section 377A ... I think you're contradicting yourself bro ...
especially that last bit about domestic activists and not attempting to replace them, and " modernisation theory may not always work if there is little avenue for change internally should interested parties want to."
I do remember you saying something about the community of nations and responsibilities and all that ... so what gives ? ... so it's alright to agitate to for democracy and to end the death penalty and decriminalize gay sex via international pressure but not ..... this ? ...
or is this "relative" also ? ..
What I'm saying is that any agitation from the international arena also needs the support of domestic activists, especially in more insular states (socio-culturally speaking).
Udon mentioned that it's best to leave it to the domestic fellas to solve their own problems, but I debated that point and wanted to say that domestic efforts won't work unless there is space for them to do so, and in nations like Saudi Arabia, international direct action in-country may not be as effective as a two-pronged approach that involves domestic lobbying and international pressure on the foreign policy and trade fronts. -
Lazerlordz and Fatum: "Universal" "values and ethics" are not monolithic concepts and implementation requires local adjustments. We have known this since the days of Suleyman the Lawgiver. Hence, what wrong is there to defer to the judgement of a local non-corrupt authority?
Fatum: Your indignations and attempts to emotionally monopoly the moral highground are tiresome. Your views are at the end of the day are based on emotions and not logic. Are you a woman? -
Ok... lets put it in a simpler view... I went and commit a house-breaking and theft at a hdb flat... I escaped and on my way home I was gang robbed...
Then the news headline says. "Gang-robbed, yet victim was jailed, 4 strokes of the cane"
if you look closely at the article, the woman, though was gang rapped, did commit an offence of being in the same car with an unrelated man, which is a little bit harsh if you ask me, (weather if she is a prostitute, doing a "favour", pushed in or god knows what) which is considered an offence there. (Though, I think she is somehow guilty since any sane judge would acquit the woman if she was forced in to the car).
in conclusion, SHE WAS NOT PUNISHED FOR BEING A VICTIM OF A GANG RAPE BUT HAD COMMITTED AN OFFENCE AND SUBSEQUENTLY BECAME A VICTIM OF A GANG RAPE
law works in mysterious ways... -
Our premise here is that the law in question violates the basic right of a woman to have protection from rape. Therefore, any judgement made through that law, is void.Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Fatum: This is called analysis. The judge concluded she was guilty, hence the punishment. I defer to his authority on this matter because he is an embedded scholar of law. On closer analysis, I concur that I was wrong in stating that he concluded she was a prostitute. That was how I read his verdict. It may likely be that his verdict was based on the crime of "close proximity with non-close male relations", which I did not consider a crime on first reading. I concur with this verdict because events upheld the premise the law. -
Well, did Suleiman talk of double jeopardy? How can you charge a woman for close-proximity with a man when she has been raped.Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Lazerlordz and Fatum: "Universal" "values and ethics" are not monolithic concepts and implementation requires local adjustments. We have known this since the days of Suleyman the Lawgiver. Hence, what wrong is there to defer to the judgement of a local non-corrupt authority?
Fatum: Your indignations and attempts to emotionally monopoly the moral highground are tiresome. Your views are at the end of the day are based on emotions and not logic. Are you a woman?
Rape is by definition a forced act of sexual intercourse against a person's will. Therefore her crime of close-proximity was forced against her will. I'll bet that even if she had fought them off, there would be a high chance she'd be slapped with some ordinance relating to assault.
I believe that judge ought to re-examine his own credentials. -
no no...it's not orgy. it is...rape leh...wait. i get my book....Originally posted by Fatum:an orgy is not a rape my dear ....
found it
"After puberty all Eskimo girls are fiar game for any interested male. A man shows his intentions by grabbing the belt of a woman, and if she protests, he cuts off her trousers and forces himself upon her." -
I can't put it any better .... what this judgement against her basically says is that she was asking for it .... get it ? ....Originally posted by MohamedF:Ok... lets put it in a simpler view... I went and commit a house-breaking and theft at a hdb flat... I escaped and on my way home I was gang robbed...
Then the news headline says. "Gang-robbed, yet victim was jailed, 4 strokes of the cane"
if you look closely at the article, the woman, though was gang rapped, did commit an offence of being in the same car with an unrelated man, which is a little bit harsh if you ask me, (weather if she is a prostitute, doing a "favour", pushed in or god knows what) which is considered an offence there. (Though, I think she is somehow guilty since any sane judge would acquit the woman if she was forced in to the car).
in conclusion, [b]SHE WAS NOT PUNISHED FOR BEING A VICTIM OF A GANG RAPE BUT HAD COMMITTED AN OFFENCE AND SUBSEQUENTLY BECAME A VICTIM OF A GANG RAPE
law works in mysterious ways...[/b][/quote]
[quote]Originally posted by LazerLordz:
Our premise here is that the law in question violates the basic right of a woman to have protection from rape. Therefore, any judgement made through that law, is void. -
aren't you glad you're not an eskimo girl udon ? ....Originally posted by udontknowme:no no...it's not orgy. it is...rape leh...wait. i get my book....
found it
"After puberty all Eskimo girls are fiar game for any interested male. A man shows his intentions by grabbing the belt of a woman, and if she protests, he cuts off her trousers and forces himself upon her."
btw, the eskimos hate the term "eskimos" ... they call themselves "inuits" ... only the plains and costal indians call them "eskimos" ... it's a derogatory term ... just something nice to know told to me by an "inuit" .... most textbooks should already make that distinction ... -
no ... I'm not a woman ... but I respect them ... I hold them as equal human beings, I hold their bodies as sacred, I don't see any sort of suggestions from them as an invitation to force myself upon them ...Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Lazerlordz and Fatum: "Universal" "values and ethics" are not monolithic concepts and implementation requires local adjustments. We have known this since the days of Suleyman the Lawgiver. Hence, what wrong is there to defer to the judgement of a local non-corrupt authority?
Fatum: Your indignations and attempts to emotionally monopoly the moral highground are tiresome. Your views are at the end of the day are based on emotions and not logic. Are you a woman?
do you ? ... -
Lazerlordz: She wasn't kidnapped mind you. Look Lazerlordz, I do not have much to go on here. You cannot force me to discredit the judge based on what you and I do not know. If we take liberties then we can say that what happened may be that she went along with him thinking he was a good boy and then she got date-raped. This happens even in the West. The difference in the law is that in the West they will say the woman was not at fault because she didn't know he had the intent. In Saudi Arabia they say all gender relations are subject to the sexual event, therefore the object of sexual desire must guard against the possibility of unwanted sexual contact. Do you want me to choose the former over the latter?