Gang-raped, yet woman gets 6 months' jail, 200 lashes
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Gang-raped, yet woman gets 6 months' jail, 200 lashes
what has the world become
Harsh sentence sparks debate over the treatment of women in Saudi Arabia
JEDDAH (SAUDI ARABIA) - A SAUDI court has sentenced a 19-year-old victim of gang rape to six months in jail and 200 lashes - more than double her initial sentence - for being in the car of a man who was not her relative, said a local newspaper.
The decision, which many lawyers found shocking even by Saudi standards of justice, has sparked a rare public debate about the treatment of women here.
According to the Arab News, the court told the victim that her sentence was made harsher because of 'her attempt to aggravate and influence the judiciary through the media'.
The victim's name has not been released. She was gang-raped 14 times about a year and a half ago in Qatif, a city in the eastern province.
Her case has been widely debated since the court sentenced her to 90 lashes a year ago for being in the same car as an unrelated man, even after it ruled that she had subsequently been raped.
Saudi Arabia enforces a strict Islamic doctrine known as Wahhabism, which forbids unrelated men and women from associating with each other, bans women from driving and forces them to cover themselves from head to toe in public.
Adding to the charged political nature of the case, the convicted men are Sunni Muslims, the dominant community in the oil-rich Gulf state. The victim, however, is a member of the kingdom's Shi'ite Muslim minority, and the case has angered members of this community.
The young woman's offence was in meeting a former boyfriend, whom she had asked to return pictures he had of her because she was about to marry another man.
The couple were sitting in a car when a group of seven men kidnapped them and raped them both, lawyers told the Arab News.
The woman and the former boyfriend were originally sentenced to 90 lashes each for being together in private, while the attackers received sentences ranging from 10 months to five years in prison, and 80 to 1,000 lashes each.
The victim's lawyer, Mr Abdulrahman al-Lahem, a well-known human rights activist, drew the court's ire due to his strong public criticism of the handling of the case.
He appealed against the attackers' sentences, saying they were too lenient and his client's conviction was unjust.
In its new decision issued on Tuesday, the court increased the victim's sentence to 200 lashes and six months in jail. It also increased the sentences of her attackers to prison terms of two to nine years.
The woman remains free for the time being and has not yet been lashed. She is now married, and her husband told local reporters that he planned to appeal against the verdict.
Lashing is a common sentence under the Saudi penal code, with the punishment meted out in increments as offenders cannot survive hundreds of lashes at once.
'I don't agree with this judgment,' Mr Bassem Alim, a lawyer in Jeddah, said of the woman's sentence. 'I think it's overly severe. She should not be punished for going to the media and explaining her case.'
Mr Alim, a friend of the victim's lawyer, said the standard punishment for adultery was 60 to 80 lashes, so the sentence was unusually harsh, even for Saudi Arabia.
'I don't think she was committing adultery in that car,' Mr Alim added.
Some liberal commentators said the girl's sentence highlighted the justice system's failure to treat women fairly.
Mr Abeer Mishkhas, a columnist who writes frequently about women's rights, noted in the Arab News that a Riyadh court sentenced a Nigerian man to six years in prison and 600 lashes for rape.
His accomplice, who filmed the offence, was sentenced to 12 years in prison and 1,200 lashes.
'The girl in the Riyadh case was not punished though she had been involved earlier with one of the men. The Qatif girl was sentenced to 90 lashes because the court suspected the 'intention of doing something bad',' Mr Mishkas wrote.
Meanwhile, Mr Al-Lahem's licence to practise law has been suspended and he is to face a disciplinary hearing for appearing regularly on television and talking about the case.
NEW YORK TIMES, AGENCE FRANCE-PRESSE, ASSOCIATED PRESS
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You ask what the world has become? The answer is that it people have become more self confident in their ignorance. This is a sad side effect of the proliferation of American consumer culture.
Non-Eastern cultures differ from Singapore where ladies can walk about half naked and no one except for the Bangladeshis bats an eyelid. It is a well known fact that north asian men are somewhat more sexually repressed in their mindset wrt sexual relations with their female counterparts. In fact, one can say that in some Asian cultures, men and women are treated almost equally and shown the same amount of interest. This of course cuts both ways. Why this is so, whether its due to some kind of culturally derived sexual repression or its genetics (or its maybe the diet?) I cannot comment but suffice to say that it is a fact that Asian males generally have lesser tendency to impose themselves sexually on the female. That's why probably its so hard for Asian men to get blowjobs..haha.
This fact can of course lead to problems. North European/American societies and Middle-Eastern societies address this issue differently and of course one can debate the various social costs and benefits of either cultural attitudes towards the issue of gender and sex. IN SAUDI SOCIETY, the CULTURAL NORM is for there to be strict gender segregation among non-married couples. Maybe the Saudi elites really don't like Western sexploitation culture, or maybe they're afraid they'll lose one of their 4 wives. I dunno. Anyway, in SUCH A SOCIETY, for a woman to be in the situation of the victim, shows that the woman had put considerable effort to bypass many of the barriers put in place to segregate the sexes. Hence, the real story that we can see from the verdict was that the woman was a prostitute who got raped.
Now such a verdict may not be suitable here of course, where prostitution is seen as a social service and the vices are treated with economic pragmatism. The thing to remember of course is that when you want to understand what happens somewhere else, you need to see the context in which that event occured. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS PEOPLE? Reading shallowly into what happens in Saudi Arabia and trying to impose some kind of spin on cultural superiority is well, quite Americanish, and I'm sure our gentle readers (readers get it?) do not want to be that. -
so you're basically saying that it's the woman's fault ? ...Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:You ask what the world has become? The answer is that it people have become more self confident in their ignorance. This is a sad side effect of the proliferation of American consumer culture.
Non-Eastern cultures differ from Singapore where ladies can walk about half naked and no one except for the Bangladeshis bats an eyelid. It is a well known fact that north asian men are somewhat more sexually repressed in their mindset wrt sexual relations with their female counterparts. In fact, one can say that in some Asian cultures, men and women are treated almost equally and shown the same amount of interest. This of course cuts both ways. Why this is so, whether its due to some kind of culturally derived sexual repression or its genetics (or its maybe the diet?) I cannot comment but suffice to say that it is a fact that Asian males generally have lesser tendency to impose themselves sexually on the female. That's why probably its so hard for Asian men to get blowjobs..haha.
This fact can of course lead to problems. North European/American societies and Middle-Eastern societies address this issue differently and of course one can debate the various social costs and benefits of either cultural attitudes towards the issue of gender and sex. IN SAUDI SOCIETY, the CULTURAL NORM is for there to be strict gender segregation among non-married couples. Maybe the Saudi elites really don't like Western sexploitation culture, or maybe they're afraid they'll lose one of their 4 wives. I dunno. Anyway, in SUCH A SOCIETY, for a woman to be in the situation of the victim, shows that the woman had put considerable effort to bypass many of the barriers put in place to segregate the sexes. Hence, the real story that we can see from the verdict was that the woman was a prostitute who got raped.
Now such a verdict may not be suitable here of course, where prostitution is seen as a social service and the vices are treated with economic pragmatism. The thing to remember of course is that when you want to understand what happens somewhere else, you need to see the context in which that event occured. CAN YOU UNDERSTAND THIS PEOPLE? Reading shallowly into what happens in Saudi Arabia and trying to impose some kind of spin on cultural superiority is well, quite Americanish, and I'm sure our gentle readers (readers get it?) do not want to be that.
grow up kiddo ... and stay away from whatever you're high on ... you make me sick ... -
another thing... this happened in the middle east and he blame it on "a sad side effect of the proliferation of American consumer culture. "
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American culture is global. Come up, wake up yourself. Everybody got TV and in fact you can satellite TV in Saudi Arabia.
The woman was a prostitute la. Don't you get it? The judge punished all parties. Take your blinkers off man. -
good GOD!
we have some really seriously deranged people on sgforums!
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you take cultural relativity too far kid ... I hope you never have a daughter also, for your own good ...Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:American culture is global. Come up, wake up yourself. Everybody got TV and in fact you can satellite TV in Saudi Arabia.
The woman was a prostitute la. Don't you get it? The judge punished all parties. Take your blinkers off man. -
There is no excuse.
Somethings are universal, and these Saudis should get their act together. -
Oh the PC police is on the prowl. Ooo.. these crazy muuzlems, they're so deranged...Inferior culture and all.. booh hoo hoo.
Objective analysis based on context? Nope didn't have that module back at uni so it must not have been important. -
we're talking about you as the deranged one
prostitute or not, no one deserves to get raped...
and if you didn't read properly, the man was also raped...Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Oh the PC police is on the prowl. Ooo.. these crazy muuzlems, they're so deranged...Inferior culture and all.. booh hoo hoo.
Objective analysis based on context? Nope didn't have that module back at uni so it must not have been important. -
Hey Fatum, I hope you daughter doesn't ever become a prostitute.
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mannnn.....nuts. she is NOT a prostitute!!!
but regarding america, human rights, women's rights etc. yes i feel that the 'westernized' countries should stop forcing these policies on other '3rd world' countries. am i nuts to say this??? cos if i am, the whole of my soci&anthro class is nuts too??????
but i dunno the law in saudi arabia...sooooo.......... -
so everything must be taken into context ? ...Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Oh the PC police is on the prowl. Ooo.. these crazy muuzlems, they're so deranged...Inferior culture and all.. booh hoo hoo.
Objective analysis based on context? Nope didn't have that module back at uni so it must not have been important.
let's see ... cannibalism ? ... widow burning ? ... female circumcision ? ...
grow up kiddo ... some things are relative, some things are absolutes ... and your post absolutely makes me sick ... where did you get the idea that the victim was a prostitute anyways ? ...
from your "objective analysis" ? ...
run along now ... -
In case you guys get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with the severity of the judgement. I'm just saying the fact the woman was also punished in this context may not be wrong.
Hey, we punish women here too you know. Changi prison got a women's wing. -
the flaming is starting..
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my posts hurts right ? ...Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:Hey Fatum, I hope you daughter doesn't ever become a prostitute.
grow up kid, for a big boy, you are certainly juvenile in your thoughts ... I don't suppose you have a girlfriend yet ? ... cos judging by the kind of drivel you posted, it's quite impossible for you ...
now don't go around raping people yah ... even pros .... stick to your hand ... -
Well, it's one thing to discuss things in seminar rooms and one thing to see a woman lashed 200 times for being raped.Originally posted by udontknowme:mannnn.....nuts. she is NOT a prostitute!!!
but regarding america, human rights, women's rights etc. yes i feel that the 'westernized' countries should stop forcing these policies on other '3rd world' countries. am i nuts to say this??? cos if i am, the whole of my soci&anthro class is nuts too??????
but i dunno the law in saudi arabia...sooooo..........
It's plain wrong, despite what academic theory exhorts one to respect other cultures. Respect only goes as far as fair and equitable treatment ends.
Lastly, this is not about Islam, it is about Saudi culture and how a patriarchal society has suppressed basic common sense and decent treatment for their women. -
no, we didn't get you wrong ... you call the woman a prostitute ... you are basically implying that she asked for it ...Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:In case you guys get me wrong, I'm not agreeing with the severity of the judgement. I'm just saying the fact the woman was also punished in this context may not be wrong.
Hey, we punish women here too you know. Changi prison got a women's wing.
what have you got to say ? .. -
an earlier thread ...
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=221811
let's see how you spin "cultural relativity" into this too .... -
oh well. what's this world becoming into man...
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udontknowme: America now is a 3rd world country with nuclear bombs so its calling itself first world. I don't see how American style liberal democracy somehow upholds absolute universal values. If the Democratic party is supposed to be a guardian of liberal democratic values well hey, there goes the baby.
Fatum: Ok, not everything is relative. As I said before the severity of the judgement is an issue no doubt about that. But I think the article and its subsequent commentary were very shallow. The judge's decision must be premised on the fact that the woman was a prostitute because he decided to punish her as well. Also he is the most fit to make that reading because he is the most able imbedded authority and so we commentators should respect that characteristic of his person. I am not making a judgement, I am merely concuring with the judge's verdict. I am not concuring with his punishment. -
You dogs go think first before you growl.
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im not saying that it's right. but neither will i say it's wrong. who are we to say what is fair or what is right? what are we basing it all on? and why do we see it as unfair? what have we been learning/studying/etc in singapore? what have we been exposed to? what are our laws here? we have we seen?Originally posted by LazerLordz:Well, it's one thing to discuss things in seminar rooms and one thing to see a woman lashed 200 times for being raped.
It's plain wrong, despite what academic theory exhorts one to respect other cultures. Respect only goes as far as fair and equitable treatment ends.
Lastly, this is not about Islam, it is about Saudi culture and how a patriarchal society has suppressed basic common sense and decent treatment for their women.
why do we consider it wrong that women in certain places have absolutely no right at all? why do we interfere? why do we impose what we think is right onto other people? why must we change another country's culture just because it is 'wrong' according to 'us'.
trust me, i hate it that things like this are going on. but if anything's going to change, i'm gonig to leave it to the people in that country to make the change. not let other people from other countries come in and 'mess things up' in order to try and 'fix' it. -
Lazerlordz: I am not concuring with the 200 lashes and what that entails. Btw, have you seen a woman hanged for drug offences? Now that's a death penalty mind you. I see no cultural superiority, in this case. I do not agree on taking point samples and imposing claims of cultural superiority.
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where was it stated anywhere that the judge, or anyone else, other than yourself, that the woman was a prostitute ? ... was it your judgement or the judges ? ...Originally posted by frakfrakfrak:udontknowme: America now is a 3rd world country with nuclear bombs so its calling itself first world. I don't see how American style liberal democracy somehow upholds absolute universal values. If the Democratic party is supposed to be a guardian of liberal democratic values well hey, there goes the baby.
Fatum: Ok, not everything is relative. As I said before the severity of the judgement is an issue no doubt about that. But I think the article and its subsequent commentary were very shallow. The judge's decision must be premised on the fact that the woman was a prostitute because he decided to punish her as well. Also he is the most fit to make that reading because he is the most able imbedded authority and so we commentators should respect that characteristic of his person. I am not making a judgement, I am merely concuring with the judge's verdict. I am not concuring with his punishment.
go read about the earlier thread i dug up ...
whether a woman flashes her boobs at you, or shows some ankle beneath her burqa, it's still not an invitation for you to force sex upon the woman, period ! ...
I don't know what your "concurring with the judge's verdict" means for you, if you're not making a judgement by saying that the judge was correct ...
run along and think now ...