Out of curiosity
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Legal sense, it is not clear.Originally posted by shade343:I think in the legal sense, its not clear leh.
Common sense, it is clear. At least to me. I don't know about you guys.
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Safest way to play it ....why get in between the doctor and the patient. Nurses give advice - some people don't want it - they want a doctor's opinion -so why even bother.Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:LOL, I assumed that you was. Your replies are just as standard as doctors. It just give me the impression that you are one. I have seen nurses who will tell you they don't know anything other than doctors' orders.
In Australia , we must be able to explain what the doctors are doing and why the doctors are doing it and why we must perform procedures on them etc - that is why we are paid more - it is for the responsibility . The ICU nurses here are actually the ones who direct the inexperienced interns in what they do because most of the time without experience it is hard for them ( same for us nurses when we start out) especially when their registrar is in a code blue situation and cannot be free to deal with the problems in ICU when it pops up ( always the life and death situation do come up first ) , same as the CCU and neuro high dependency units. Some CCU and ICU nurses have authority to even defib and administer resus drugs here. -
Legal - anything with medical side of things even advice must be followed through with legalities .Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:Legal sense, it is not clear.
Common sense, it is clear. At least to me. I don't know about you guys.
Common sense to you but not all people have the same degree of common sense. -
Alamak, medical lingo, no understand.Originally posted by fymk:Safest way to play it ....why get in between the doctor and the patient. Nurses give advice - some people don't want it - they want a doctor's opinion -so why even bother.
In Australia , we must be able to explain what the doctors are doing and why the doctors are doing it and why we must perform procedures on them etc - that is why we are paid more - it is for the responsibility . The ICU nurses here are actually the ones who direct the inexperienced interns in what they do because most of the time without experience it is hard for them ( same for us nurses) especially when their registrar is in a code blue situation and cannot be free to deal with the problems in ICU when it pops up ( always the life and death situation do come up first ) , same as the CCU and neuro high dependency units. Some CCU and ICU nurses have authority to even defib and administer resus drugs here.
Never mind about that. I thought that is bad service if they can't be bothered to explain. Thanks for clearing up.
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Defib or defibrillator : you know those nice electrical things doctors in Singapore use on patients when they are in between life and death to zap their heart into workingOriginally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:Alamak, medical lingo, no understand.
Never mind about that. I thought that is bad service if they can't be bothered to explain. Thanks for clearing up.
Resuscitation : CPR ( you should know that one) plus life saving drugs ranging from adrenaline , atrophine etc ....
In a situation of resuscitating a patient - a doctor must be present and must not be an intern because they may need to perform advanced medical interventions such as inserting a tube straight from the mouth into the lungs ( known as the endotracheal tube or ETT ) or prescribe non standard life saving drugs .
ICU = intensive care unit
CCU = critical care unit - a level down from icu
High Dependency = a level down from ccu
( may not be the same as singapore tho)
Sometimes in Singapore - nurses have no time to talk to patients at all . As much as I may like explaining to patients when I was working in Singapore - I just don't have the time to do so . Other patients have needs too and they all need to be prioritised . Most of the time , paying patients want to hear from the doctors instead of the nurses so we just let the doctors talk to them . The ratio in Singapore is considered high and unsafe in australia . one registered nurse and one enrolled nurse ( who cannot do much at all) to 12 patients and even sometimes 18 and once 24 patients if the colleague calls in sick. I have taken 18 patients myself back then and the enrolled nurse could only help out as much but just not with dressings, medications , paperwork or even just cleaning an iv site which looks extremely bloody. Even had a patient who can walk around call the callbell for me to flush her toilet because she "paid for the service" in Singapore.
Yes there may be some who cannot be bothered to explain but most are really swamped over by work .
We have a lower ratio here so we can actually explain things. 6 patients at most to one registered nurse here . In victoria it is 4 patients to one registered nurse in the public system. We have some patients who still like to talk to doctors rather than nurses but in general nurses are respected more so than in SIngapore -
fymk
Tell you something. I am not a graduated doctor you aren't one too, but what do you know about my medical knowledge or education??? If I hadn't any, I wouldn't be a mod in this forum and wouldn't dare to deal with the questions of the forumers. I'm here just the assistant to the docs and when nobody from the other mods is here, then I have to answer the questions alone. What's wrong about consulting someone, who has been practising medicine for more then 25 years if I am not sure about something what someone says is not correct? You gave me the doubts and I checked the doubts with a specialist. Even experienced doctors consult each other. It would be from me irresponsible to give an adivce on something about what I am not sure without consulting someone who must be sure about it. I don't want to play the almighty doctor and I don't think it's a shame to consult someone who has an experience gained through many years. It's not about my ego and I admit I am not perfect so why not to consult a specialist? It would be irresponsible and dangerous if I would give answers also about the things about which I am not sure without consulting an experienced doctor. Safety is what about you are talking all the time, right?
I have my own busy life with duties and obligations outside the internet and right now I am very busy till about half of february so I can't give long and exhausting explanations to the medical questions. I hardly have time to log in the forums. The other mods are busy too and they have no time to log in. During I am typing this here, I am neglecting few of the things I have to do outside the internet and it can have a bad effect in the future. If you check my posts from the time when I was more free, you will see they don't sound like from someone who has no idea.
This forum isn't for cure nor do we tell the forumers to blindly follow what we say. It's mostly for explanation. You will see that we often advice them to see a GP or a specialist. We also don't prescribe drugs nor anything else what could harm anyone. I have adviced one person to try gingko - a natural vasodilatant to improve the blood circulation in his limbs but I have told him to check it with his doctor who knows his medical history for the case he has some condition for which a vasodilatant wouldn't be safe though gingko biloba is natural and you can get it everywhere or drink it as a tea.
Also you can see that I usually ask few questions before I make some conclusion. Overspeeded conclusion could be wrong that's why I try to get as much info about the person's problems as possible. That's what the other mods do here too.
I will tell the others mods to tell everyone to visit a doc anyway as you said that some of the patients don't go to a doc and rely on the internet and also tell them to think of some disclaimer. You would probably like one where they warn everyone against me. I think this can be arranged.
I understand your concern. But I find it a bit strange that you have appeared in this forum right after you joined your friend in attacking me in one other forum for some irrelevenat thread. It looks like you have checked on me and now want to see my head rolling.
Anyway, even before we had here someone who was criticizing one of the mods and I think you are not the last one.
When the other mods are free and can log in again, I tell them to read your posts and to think about your ideas and we all will try to handle them. -
True , I am not a doctor but I stated my qualifications quite clearly. I am a registered nurse in the state of VIC and NSW ,Australia - training done in Singapore and was originally registered in SIngapore but cannot be arsed to pay registration fees for a place I don't work in . Why do these countries even bother to register us nurses if any tom/dick/harry can do the job? So surely we must know something , right? So state your depth of medical knowledge and please don't tell me you took things word for word from Harrison's Book of Internal Medicine .Originally posted by thinkdifferent:fymk
Tell you something. I am not a graduated doctor you aren't one too, but what do you know about my medical knowledge or education??? If I hadn't any, I wouldn't be a mod in this forum and wouldn't dare to deal with the questions of the forumers. I'm here just the assistant to the docs and when nobody from the other mods is here, then I have to answer the questions alone. What's wrong about consulting someone, who has been practising medicine for more then 25 years if I am not sure about something what someone says is not correct? You gave me the doubts and I checked the doubts with a specialist. Even experienced doctors consult each other. It would be from me irresponsible to give an adivce on something about what I am not sure without consulting someone who must be sure about it. I don't want to play the almighty doctor and I don't think it's a shame to consult someone who has an experience gained through many years. It's not about my ego and I admit I am not perfect so why not to consult a specialist? It would be irresponsible and dangerous if I would give answers also about the things about which I am not sure without consulting an experienced doctor. Safety is what about you are talking all the time, right?
In the first place , asking mommy is not a good idea even if she is a doctor . Your mother is qualified so she can speak for herself and bear the responsibility on her own registration if something goes wrong. You can't .
If you are a medical student or even a nursing/allied health student , you should know that refereed MEDICAL articles are available on Medline database and OVID, Web of Knowledge ISI database . Those are researched publications and you must also know how to judge the data to deem it accurate. Those articles are sometimes used in the court of law too in medical negligence cases and most specialist witness would refer to them .
Fair enough . But General RULE when we all started off as students in medicine/nursing/allied health - if unsure, don't do it . If you are busy , don't answer then if you are going to make a big boohoo of an answer. No one is going to blame you if you don't say a thing. Right?
I have my own busy life with duties and obligations outside the internet and right now I am very busy till about half of february so I can't give long and exhausting explanations to the medical questions. I hardly have time to log in the forums. The other mods are busy too and they have no time to log in. During I am typing this here, I am neglecting few of the things I have to do outside the internet and it can have a bad effect in the future. If you check my posts from the time when I was more free, you will see they don't sound like from someone who has no idea.
This forum isn't for cure nor do we tell the forumers to blindly follow what we say. It's mostly for explanation. You will see that we often advice them to see a GP or a specialist. We also don't prescribe drugs nor anything else what could harm anyone. I have adviced one person to try gingko - a natural vasodilatant to improve the blood circulation in his limbs but I have told him to check it with his doctor who knows his medical history for the case he has some condition for which a vasodilatant wouldn't be safe though gingko biloba is natural and you can get it everywhere or drink it as a tea.
Also you can see that I usually ask few questions before I make some conclusion. Overspeeded conclusion could be wrong that's why I try to get as much info about the person's problems as possible. That's what the other mods do here too
There was an intern aka houseman who was so busy that he told my mom the wrong thing in a very rude way - of course I made a complaint because my mom was crying for the whole day thinking she has cancer when she has gastritis only .
I would not have complained if he actually told my mom that he was busy and would check when he is free . I could have made things worse for the intern since the hospital can actually be sued for misinformation ( learn vicarious liability) and make him get a mark on his employment but I didn't . I guessed he was busy when he made such a stupid comment . That was in Singapore when this happened. In Australia , the families actually sue hospitals plus the staff . Not as bad as USA but bad enough .
If you want to do things , do it right for the first time.
I would like to see you moderating - If you must answer - at least give someone a reputable website to go to like mayo clinic or maybe quote an article or two from some reputable journal like New England Journal of Medicine , JAMA , BMJ regarding things people are asking if you can comprehend medical lingo ( I am not sure about your depth of knowledge) . Not go ask mommy or mommy's friend . If you cannot answer - find a reputable website - mayo especially , who has some q and A on the topic before even trying to attempt blind
I will tell the others mods to tell everyone to visit a doc anyway as you said that some of the patients don't go to a doc and rely on the internet and also tell them to think of some disclaimer. You would probably like one where they warn everyone against me. I think this can be arranged.
I understand your concern. But I find it a bit strange that you have appeared in this forum right after you joined your friend in attacking me in one other forum for some irrelevenat thread. It looks like you have checked on me and now want to see my head rolling.
Anyway, even before we had here someone who was criticizing one of the mods and I think you are not the last one.
When the other mods are free and can log in again, I tell them to read your posts and to think about your ideas and we all will try to handle them.
Yes , Gedanken is my friend irl but he has nothing to do with this forum or the other , I stand on my own in this one and in the other . I answer on my own right and as a member of the public. Sometimes he can be blunt but I can accept it .
Maybe you should read what I said about how my patient told me about the internet - how he delayed treatment and how he died on us a few days later. This is kind of thing you don't forget . None of my colleagues ever forgot the look on his face and how he bled to death - via vomiting while we were trying to stop him from bleeding out by running Hartmann's and blood as fast as possible via 3 Intravenous lines plus NG tube him for decompression which inturn clotted up quickly and had to be pulled out . That was a man who thought he had gastritis only via researching some quack website and had instead a few perforated gastric ulcers which never gave him much of a sign except a gnawing pain ,except for the increasing burning pain when they preforated...he was in the hospital when he was admitted because the gastroenterologist got a strong suspicion about his gastric ulcers before the perforation started. One is bad enough but this guy had 4 of them inside . Small ones plus a big one at the body of the stomach.
Can you imagine how his family felt?
That is why I think for the sake of the moderators and others - to put up a clear disclaimer . -
You won't like what I say and you will probably have objections. Before I start, I have to tell you that I don't want to reveal too much and if you have some questions after, I probably reject to answer some of them (for example where I studied or still study) because I don't want to reveal my identity, nor anything hinting to it. I have my reasons. (no, it's not fear to bear my responsibility)
Here it goes. I could read long time before I started to attend the elementary. I had many interests since my early childhood, especially in the field of medicine, biology and physics. Since I was 8, I was reading mother's medical books instead of books for children, she took me every day after school to hospital where I loved to watch her working, asking questions and learn for about 7 years (Yes I was allowed to, though it may sound unbelievable. It's one of the things about which I don't want to reveal the details.) . This way I gained knowledge in pediatry, general practice, onkology and radiology, because my mother worked in these branches. From my own interest and because of my own diagnosis I learnt also neurology in which I am interested at most. When I was 16, I wrote a research work/thesis on hippotherapy for which I got some awards and many doctors, physio and hippo therapists asked me for permission to use it. Though I wasn't allowed to study medicine and was forced to study something else, I took some courses like anatomy or forensic medicine and finished them with exams. Due to my multiple interests I took courses also in some other fields beside my main major and had also exams (also in psychology, though your friend may laugh when you tell him). Currently still studying, being busy due to overload of study.
As I said, I am an assistant to the 2 docs here, they supervise what I post, but currently non of them is able to log in, I don't know for how long.
As for the legal point of view of what we are doing here - I am also in the legal field, I know what we can do and what we can't do.
I will tell the other mods about the disclaimer, but I have to wait till they are back. -
Don't give me the anything you do I can do better than you answer. It sounds rather defensive . Anyone in the legal or medical field would know oncology is not spelt as onkology. However if you want to put it out this way , I can do so tooOriginally posted by thinkdifferent:You won't like what I say and you will probably have objections. Before I start, I have to tell you that I don't want to reveal too much and if you have some questions after, I probably reject to answer some of them (for example where I studied or still study) because I don't want to reveal my identity, nor anything hinting to it. I have my reasons. (no, it's not fear to bear my responsibility)
Here it goes. I could read long time before I started to attend the elementary. I had many interests since my early childhood, especially in the field of medicine, biology and physics. Since I was 8, I was reading mother's medical books instead of books for children, she took me every day after school to hospital where I loved to watch her working, asking questions and learn for about 7 years (Yes I was allowed to, though it may sound unbelievable. It's one of the things about which I don't want to reveal the details.) . This way I gained knowledge in pediatry, general practice, onkology and radiology, because my mother worked in these branches. From my own interest and because of my own diagnosis I learnt also neurology in which I am interested at most. When I was 16, I wrote a research work/thesis on hippotherapy for which I got some awards and many doctors, physio and hippo therapists asked me for permission to use it. Though I wasn't allowed to study medicine and was forced to study something else, I took some courses like anatomy or forensic medicine and finished them with exams. Due to my multiple interests I took courses also in some other fields beside my main major and had also exams (also in psychology, though your friend may laugh when you tell him). Currently still studying, being busy due to overload of study.
As I said, I am an assistant to the 2 docs here, they supervise what I post, but currently non of them is able to log in, I don't know for how long.
As for the legal point of view of what we are doing here - I am also in the legal field, I know what we can do and what we can't do.
I will tell the other mods about the disclaimer, but I have to wait till they are back.
I dare to put out my background because I got the gumptions to do so . 7 years of the nursing profession my dear not including nursing training which makes it 10 . Neurosurgical HIGH DEPENDENCY ( ever called a neurosurgeon in the middle of the night before because the intern can't deal with his patient and the reg is busy in theatre ?) , general surgical , surgical scrub , medical nursing , gastroenterology , trauma . Rotated all around in my training years as well when I became a registered nurse. but then SO WHAT?
My father is a lawyer , his friends are lawyers and I also did some work for them . DOES THAT MAKE ME A LAWYER? Or qualified to be answering any legal questions?
His best friend is a doctor - his best friend's wife used to baby sit me and yes I also like you , read medical books when I was young. My mom wanted to be a nurse but got married so she has alot of medical books as well as nursing .
His old classmates from RI are still his friends and are consultants as well as HODs in various hospitals. BUT SO WHAT? Does that make me a doctor? Nope
My GAMSAT score was 72 raw - 86th percentile . I got into Graduate Medical School in Australia after finishing my nursing degree ( hey I was like you - couldn't get into Medicine in Singapore because I chose the polytechnic route) but dad said I have to choose between housing or medicine and I pay for my own accomodation etc because my mom was upset with me trying to leave nursing - I chose my apartment which he helped to pay half of - the other I am paying the banks "rent" . The only smartest financial decision I ever made. SO WHAT? Still doesn't make me a doctor.
Anna , my ex colleague in australia , was a third year medical student who decided to switch to nursing because she liked what nurses did . Even she won't talk like you do . None of the interns in hospital has the arrogance like you have and they have their registration. I have mine to boot .Even the registrars whom I knew when they were interns , don't even have YOUR DEMEANOR.
What you MEAN you didn't know? Nurses also study pharmacology , biochemistry , pathophysiology, anatomy ( we did have parts of cadavers to look at) , sociology , psychology , research methods , nursing skills. I just happen to do my postgrad in Master of Public Health - any of your friendly doctors will tell you what it entails because if they want to be registered in australia in the royal college of public health physicians , they need that . BUT that doesn't make me more a ""doctor" than you . I am a nurse. Yes I have written research protocols . Yes I was encouraged to publish .
Hippo what? Those ancient greek therapy things? That is alternative medicine . Writing about alternative medicine like homeopathy and hippo therapy - any person can fake it . You need clinical trials - RCTs ...go read up what it is since you are so great , to prove a treatment work and so far , not many RCTS are done in alternative medicine . Chinese medicine is a different story - it has been proven for centuries so they are doing research on the effectiveness of acupuncture. If I wasn't wrong - at one stage they were researching the effectiveness of acupuncture on bell palsy in SGH .
Moral of the story : you can talk how great you are about passing exams ( i can perfectly memorise the whole damn book of law and pass it and call myself a lawyer but that doesn't MAKE ME ONE) - That's theory but you have no practical and therefore you cannot say anything more than to direct people to websites where QUALIFIED PRACTITIONERS ARE. YOU ARE NOT REGISTERED TO PRACTICE IN ANY MEDICAL /HEALTHCARE FIELD. END OF STORY . -
Sorry for breaking the pattern. This will have no end if we continue arguing about it. I don't want to see history being repeated.
The Internet is supposed to be a place to let us make friends, not enemies. All of us have our right to view things in our own way. There's no right or wrong.
You guys know the story of Robin Hood. Some people say he's right, some say he's wrong. No point arguing about this. It's the way we are brought up and the moral values that are taught to us that makes us view certain things differently. -
Not the matter of argument . There are two issues : 1. no credentials 2. disclaimer .Originally posted by ndmmxiaomayi:Sorry for breaking the pattern. This will have no end if we continue arguing about it. I don't want to see history being repeated.
The Internet is supposed to be a place to let us make friends, not enemies. All of us have our right to view things in our own way. There's no right or wrong.
You guys know the story of Robin Hood. Some people say he's right, some say he's wrong. No point arguing about this. It's the way we are brought up and the moral values that are taught to us that makes us view certain things differently.
The principle of the thing is that I am saying that if thinkdifferent wants to help , refer to a website or a person qualified to do so . Thinkdifferent has admitted to being not qualified to do so but making her studies look like they are credentials gets on my nerve . A biologist is no medical doctor , neither is a biochemist, no matter what exams they have taken or not .
NO REGISTRATION ANYWHERE in the any healthcare profession but trying to show that they have the godgiven right to answer because mommy is a doctor , is akin to being a quack.
It is like an Ah Soh who works in a doctor's practice and claiming to be a nurse WITHOUT registration OR qualifications which are recognised by the practicising body - that irritates me. In Australia it is a punishable offence to impersonate even a nurse , let alone a doctor .
No. 2 now . Disclaimer ....I would think it is settled already . -
From the way I see it, yes, both of you are definitely arguing about something. Credentials or no credentials, I don't care. All I care is the sincerity in the replies, the sincerity that one wants to help.Originally posted by fymk:Not the matter of argument . There are two issues : 1. no credentials 2. disclaimer .
The principle of the thing is that I am saying that if thinkdifferent wants to help , refer to a website or a person qualified to do so . Thinkdifferent has admitted to being not qualified to do so but making her studies look like they are credentials gets on my nerve . A biologist is no medical doctor , neither is a biochemist, no matter what exams they have taken or not .
NO REGISTRATION ANYWHERE in the any healthcare profession but trying to show that they have the godgiven right to answer because mommy is a doctor , is akin to being a quack.
It is like an Ah Soh who works in a doctor's practice and claiming to be a nurse WITHOUT registration OR qualifications which are recognised by the practicising body - that irritates me. In Australia it is a punishable offence to impersonate even a nurse , let alone a doctor .
No. 2 now . Disclaimer ....I would think it is settled already .
It is just like repairing computers. Does one need credentials to do so? As long as you can do it, who cares? Probably you care. I don't. All I want is the symptoms to be lessened and hopefully cured.
I don't have any credentials of being an IT expert, and neither does any of the moderators over at the IT Helpdesk that we set up has one. If forumers don't trust us, would they come to us? Talking about qualifications, do we need to show one? I have transferred course, no longer doing a diploma in IT. Does that mean I can't repair computers because I don't have a diploma in IT? I've got experience in dealing with computers. Obviously not those high levels one like network problems. But simple ones like viruses, spyware, computer crashing, etc... if people can't solve them by the conventional methods, we can help. And no credentials needed and problem is solved. Computers may not be humans, but like diagnosing illnesses, we need the full description of problems before we can solve. And I admit that I can't solve everything.
The same goes for this medical forum. If I don't trust them, I wouldn't have come. Their medical knowledge, as far as I know, don't contradict with what I read and what doctors have been telling me. -
I was doing clinical trials for hippotherapy and other needed things which a research requires for 3 years before I wrote the research work.
Anyway, I don't want to argue anymore, I am really tired of it. ndmmxiaomayi is right. We will put some disclaimer when the other mods are back and I can discuss it with them and if it makes you feel happy and able to sleep peacefully again, I suggest the mods my resignation. As for the oncology - onkology - there is a simple explanation why I wrote k instead of c (one reason is me being exhausted and not concentrated) but that belongs to the things I don't want to reveal. I don't want to argue anymore therefore I lock this thread.
ndmmxiaomayi you seem to be the only reasonable person in this thread.