Why MRT cannot have 1 min interval like hong kong?
-
Originally posted by E5:
Here are some of the reasons why you won't get to see a consistent 2 mins per train frequency:
1. We are currently facing "train shortage".
2. SMRT & LTA prefers to have the system to perform at it's optimum (24tph), rather than at it's maximum (28~30tph).
3. Normal Mode and Fast Mode Exist in Auto Mode. A train coasting @ 40~60km/h is not utilizing every seconds. When accumulated enough over time, it will have sufficient headway to allows an extra train to be placed into the system for revenue service.
4. Inefficient schedule. Trains are given too much time to travel in between stations. (See point 4)
5. Schedule of train's frequencies are inconsistent.Train C <--5 mins frequency--> Train B <--2 mins frequency--> Train A
6. During CM, performance of system decrease as TO are not trained well enough to operate a train as well as a computer.
7. Automatic system has it's constraints and because of these constraints, multiple redundant failsafe mechanism are required to prevent an accident/incident from occuring. These failsafe mechanism decreases the maximum performance acheivable when compared to a system where trains are driven manually.Train congestion, is acceptable as long as there is no more than one train stopped completely waiting for the front train to clear. This problem can be minimized by enforcing effective & efficient scheduling of train as well as "dwell time abuse".
When the system are pushed to it's maximum:
North-South/East-West Line: 45~70 seconds (6-car formation) (ATC-4)
Keikyu: 0~30 seconds (4,6,8, 12-car formation) (C-ATS)
Keio: 15~24 seconds (10-car formation) (ATS-S)
Yamanote: 25~30 seconds (11-car formation) (D-ATC)Frequencies given above are obtained by having the timer:
- Start: The moment the train starts to move off
- Stop: Front-end of the train behind touches the back end of the platformAs different train system has different no.-of-car/train length, it's unfair to determine frequency by:
- Timer start when train totally cleared station, timer stop when train behind made a complete stop in station
- Timer start when the moment the train starts to moves off, timer stop when train behind made a complete stop in station
- Timer start when train has totally cleared the station, timer stop when front end of the train touches the back end of the platformIf train shortage, why still got train in depot?
I think is TO shortage since not many people want to be TO.
6. CM mode should be used only when necessary.
-
Originally posted by Rooney9:
why cant sg emulate hk signal system then, just like china learn from us.No idea, since they already learn (copy if you put it badly) alot from HK.
-
First of all, i think the statistics are unrelable. You really have to personally go hk maybe for a week or two week, everyday take train at peak hour, then u will see the difference.
When MRT have a 1 min interval, most probably u will encounter the train stopping somewhere in the track and the it will have a "track fault" annoucement because it is too close to the train in front.
In MTR, u seldom encounter that because i think MTR train never "park" at the terminus station like Joo koon. It will go one round back to the other plaform. U can take a look at hk tsuen wan terminus.
For the door closing, in my experience with HK MTR, i think it is about the same time as singapore. Plus the recent overcrowding case, MRT wont be any faster.
-
Originally posted by KakaSC:
First of all, i think the statistics are unrelable. You really have to personally go hk maybe for a week or two week, everyday take train at peak hour, then u will see the difference.
When MRT have a 1 min interval, most probably u will encounter the train stopping somewhere in the track and the it will have a "track fault" annoucement because it is too close to the train in front.
In MTR, u seldom encounter that because i think MTR train never "park" at the terminus station like Joo koon. It will go one round back to the other plaform. U can take a look at hk tsuen wan terminus.
For the door closing, in my experience with HK MTR, i think it is about the same time as singapore. Plus the recent overcrowding case, MRT wont be any faster.
not much diff as there's cross tracks on both sides of terminating stn.
as for dwell time, over here is computer controlled (in some sense), and CSO dun encourage ppl to move to less crowded area dun help.
-
Originally posted by SBS7322B:
HKMTR signal system is more efficient than Singapore's signal system. Please understand that.
it's a matter want to upgrade or not.In our MRT's case, is wait until overcapacity then upgrade....
-
Then how about the MTRC lei (former KCRC)... i dont think they have 1 min interval cause some express train to/back shengzhen & cargo trains for the East Rail line uses the same track sia...
-
Originally posted by bus555:
Then how about the MTRC lei (former KCRC)... i dont think they have 1 min interval cause some express train to/back shengzhen & cargo trains for the East Rail line uses the same track sia...
tat one is alternate trips debut i know now got another cross border, more complicated?
-
Originally posted by Just_do_it_lah:
I do agreed with u (in urban areas)... been to Tung Chung lately (end of the yellow line) .. waited for almost 5 mins...
for a return trip back to Kowloon...The most effective is the island line ... dun have to rush to catch a MTR...
That's because, compared to lines like the Island, Tsuen Wan, and Kwun Tong, the Tung Chung Line has lower ridership.
-
Originally posted by KakaSC:
First of all, i think the statistics are unrelable. You really have to personally go hk maybe for a week or two week, everyday take train at peak hour, then u will see the difference.
When MRT have a 1 min interval, most probably u will encounter the train stopping somewhere in the track and the it will have a "track fault" annoucement because it is too close to the train in front.
In MTR, u seldom encounter that because i think MTR train never "park" at the terminus station like Joo koon. It will go one round back to the other plaform. U can take a look at hk tsuen wan terminus.
For the door closing, in my experience with HK MTR, i think it is about the same time as singapore. Plus the recent overcrowding case, MRT wont be any faster.
Chai Wan? Yau Ma Tei? Central?
Harbourfront also has a similar system as going to TBS like the Tsuen Wan, Sheung Wan and Tiu Keng Leng stations anyway, for those who don't know.
-
Originally posted by SBS8214Z:
MTR got so many lines, so many trains, obviously they can rule out the one minute interval.Perhaps you haven't see the 1 minute interval for Singapore, the next train have to wait for the train at the station to leave then the waiting one can enter. You think it's so easy for SMRT to rule out one-minute intervals? Wait long long.
66 C151 - EWL/NSL
19 C651 - EWL/NSL
21 C751B - EWL/NSL
21 C151A - EWL/NSL
40-1 C830 - CCL
25 C751A - NEL
73 C951 - DTLTotal is 264 trains, and it is only with effect of year 2012.
And i think you have heard of what bunching means right. You will not expect one train come damn full next train about 30seconds behind empty empty.
Sorry, C151A has 22 trains, not 21.
-
HK have the 1min ride?
Just like our SOM-DBG, CNT-CKQ.
-
Originally posted by willis_chong:
Chai Wan? Yau Ma Tei? Central?
Harbourfront also has a similar system as going to TBS like the Tsuen Wan, Sheung Wan and Tiu Keng Leng stations anyway, for those who don't know.
But for Tsuen Wan or Chai Wan case it seemed to be MUST use the TBS because there is no crossover in the front, whereas Harbourfront case, is they can use the TBS as there is a crossover in front as well. Recently I did not see any NEL trains go TBS leh. (And the other platform is akin to dead.)
-
Originally posted by Samuel Lee:
But for Tsuen Wan or Chai Wan case it seemed to be MUST use the TBS because there is no crossover in the front, whereas Harbourfront case, is they can use the TBS as there is a crossover in front as well. Recently I did not see any NEL trains go TBS leh. (And the other platform is akin to dead.)
e other platform only used during AM peak -
Originally posted by Samuel Lee:
But for Tsuen Wan or Chai Wan case it seemed to be MUST use the TBS because there is no crossover in the front, whereas Harbourfront case, is they can use the TBS as there is a crossover in front as well. Recently I did not see any NEL trains go TBS leh. (And the other platform is akin to dead.)
Chai Wan is like DBG wad.
Harbourfront still use the TBS, but not as common as before.
-
Originally posted by willis_chong:
Chai Wan is like DBG wad.
Harbourfront still use the TBS, but not as common as before.
PS: Cant remember which one as I only know via BVE of HK routes.
-
Originally posted by Call4ljw:
If train shortage, why still got train in depot?
I think is TO shortage since not many people want to be TO.
6. CM mode should be used only when necessary.
1. Trains need to undergo regular inspection and maintenance. If a train which need to be inspected/maintained is on revenue service, how are the engineers going to inspect/maintain the train?
Cross-coupling itself can tell you how streched the maintenence are:
They need every train that are "healthy" to perform revenue service in order to meet the rush-hour demands. If half of two different trainsets with the same motor needs to be in depot for inspection/maintenance, the other two-half which are more "healthy" will be coupled together to perform revenue service.
2. Where is your source?
3. But when the need arise, does our TO operate the trains efficiently?
-
Originally posted by E5:
2. Where is your source?
1: It was mentioned earlier that TO's pay is no more than $1200 SGD (Initial pay), and that is SMRT ones, not Japan or London Tube. That was someone who asked in Bus forums to compare between Bus Captain / Service Leader and TO.
2: On 2010 September 19 12:45am (It was first day of JEMP as well), such midnight times, got another passenger on Khatib tracks and hit by train. IDK if he / she is alive, but sounded like another suicide case. Reported in CNA and only disrupted last 4 AMK bound trains. Well, if in average of every 3 months per suicide case, who want to be the next for hitting passenger. (Let me think, on top of BLE, it seemed that only Expo and Dover is clean, Simei, Yew Tee, Pasir Ris, Yio Chu Kang IDK)
-
You do not deploy all available trains into service. You will keep some as "backup", for modifications and such.
If you want to look at sucide cases take a look at London Underground. Statistics are that a driver on average encounters one in (I think) 3 years.
-
Originally posted by Samuel Lee:
1: It was mentioned earlier that TO's pay is no more than $1200 SGD (Initial pay), and that is SMRT ones, not Japan or London Tube. That was someone who asked in Bus forums to compare between Bus Captain / Service Leader and TO.
2: On 2010 September 19 12:45am (It was first day of JEMP as well), such midnight times, got another passenger on Khatib tracks and hit by train. IDK if he / she is alive, but sounded like another suicide case. Reported in CNA and only disrupted last 4 AMK bound trains. Well, if in average of every 3 months per suicide case, who want to be the next for hitting passenger. (Let me think, on top of BLE, it seemed that only Expo is clean, Simei IDK)
1. A bus captain must have at least have a Class 3 licence, which means the person already know how to operate a car beforehand. Almost all TO have no experience in driving a train beforehand, which means the company has to invest more money in training the TO to operate a train. To recoup some of these losses, the company can opt to have a contract with the TO OR to have him start with a lower basic pay.
2. To deal with suicide case, one of the many options available is to follow Japan's policy, that is to fine the family of those who suicide. Amount of fine imposed is dependant on how much delay it had caused and the number of people affected. This may not be applied to death which are not intentional and accidental.
The fine may be harsh to the family as not only they had just lost their kin, but also an increased in burden due to the fine they have to pay. This force the suiciders to spare a thought for the consequences if he/she decides to suicide.
Originally posted by joeyfjj:You do not deploy all available trains into service. You will keep some as "backup", for modifications and such.
If you want to look at sucide cases take a look at London Underground. Statistics are that a driver on average encounters one in (I think) 3 years.
I agree with this. To add, STARIS are not installed when the trains are on revenue service but when the trains are in the depot and not on revenue service.
-
Originally posted by joeyfjj:
You do not deploy all available trains into service. You will keep some as "backup", for modifications and such.
If you want to look at sucide cases take a look at London Underground. Statistics are that a driver on average encounters one in (I think) 3 years.
I know per driver basis, per train basis or even per station basis, it take years, but if in overall, it is like taking months, just recently in 2010 where there are a bunch of suicides in Tanah Merah, Sembawang, Redhill (Not sure if it is an accident) and Bedok within 2 ~ 3 months. So there is a chance.....
Yah, heavy fine sounds workable, but it took about like a million SGD or so as a compenstation? (AFAI heard of, Japanese train one suicide = 100 million yen, roughly translates to 1 million SGD. WTF, 1 million SGD? How to fine in the first place, if they dont pay up then how? Jail the whole family?)
-
Originally posted by Samuel Lee:
I know per driver basis, per train basis or even per station basis, it take years, but if in overall, it is like taking months, just recently in 2010 where there are a bunch of suicides in Tanah Merah, Sembawang, Redhill (Not sure if it is an accident) and Bedok within 2 ~ 3 months. So there is a chance.....
Yah, heavy fine sounds workable, but it took about like a million SGD or so as a compenstation? (AFAI heard of, Japanese train one suicide = 100 million yen, roughly translates to 1 million SGD. WTF, 1 million SGD? How to fine in the first place, if they dont pay up then how? Jail the whole family?)
In Singapore, a 7 hours and 17 minutes disruption affecting about 57,000 passengers cost S$387,176.
-
how to earn?
-
Originally posted by KakaSC:
I have been to Hong Kong recently and find that HK MTR interval for each train is < 1 min during peak hour. Although is very crowded, ppl will queue orderly for the next train because they know that after one min, the next train will arrive.
Simple...cause Singapore and Hong Kong isn't the same. Singapore is Singapore, Hong Kong is Hong Kong...
-
Originally posted by E5:
1. Trains need to undergo regular inspection and maintenance. If a train which need to be inspected/maintained is on revenue service, how are the engineers going to inspect/maintain the train?
Cross-coupling itself can tell you how streched the maintenence are:
They need every train that are "healthy" to perform revenue service in order to meet the rush-hour demands. If half of two different trainsets with the same motor needs to be in depot for inspection/maintenance, the other two-half which are more "healthy" will be coupled together to perform revenue service.
2. Where is your source?
3. But when the need arise, does our TO operate the trains efficiently?
When the need arises?
Most of the time not needed.
But i can say that the TO's are definitely improving.
-
Originally posted by SMB66X:
Simple...cause Singapore and Hong Kong isn't the same. Singapore is Singapore, Hong Kong is Hong Kong...
Hong Kong is bigger.
A country so many times bigger can do it, then why cant we?