How to film trains safely & reaction to unfriendly CSOs
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Originally posted by NickLim™:
Ok ok, there is no current law stating explicitly that photography is banned in RTS stations. The last ammendment of the Railway Act was in 1991, 1 year before I was born.
However, there seem to be a verbal consensus or an internal consensus within SMRT (I say this because I have had no problems with SBST lines so far, but actually neither with SMRT.) that photography should not be allowed. In the Singapore Law, a verbal agreement can also be considered a contract, should the case be taken to court. Just with albeit more lawyer fees and a longer trial I guess. So I would say, yes it is not allowed for SMRT stations.
To play safe, just ask. Would it kill to use 20 seconds of your time to say "Hello, is it possible for me to take pictures in the station?" If they ask why, just say that you like trains or something. Lies can only be supported with more lies and the whole thing collapses. If the guy/lady says no, then walk away. I'm sure if even you were really thirsty with only 1 drink stall in sight, and the uncle behaves like he is against the entire world holding a parang in his hand, you won't go by the mantra of "I came here for a drink, I leave here with a drink." right? Same thing applies here. Although it won;t get you into some serious penal offence, is that 1GB of pics worth your time and frustration?
As I say, this is definetely an abuse of authority by some station managers if there are no such law exist. But since you have mentioned about internal consensus within SMRT, so why dont put like trespass into tracks also no need to state is not allowed, or rather no food and drinks allowed also no need to state clearly one leh?
Sure, it does not kill by asking. But, have u thought of station to station video. How can one ask permission from both station first without actually overstay or asking in advance, where chances are, in the term of office politics (You know when you go to work), where the day or time in duty likes to give trouble leh.
Eg: You come 3 days ago in Station A and B and asked nicely say I 3 days later wana take videos for my train project as an train enthu identity. 3 days later, either or both of the station manager on off day (All staff got an off day per week or 8 days or sort of, unless the station manager is your friend or relative, how would you know?) and the other guy say HELL NO! WTH are you trying to do? You explain nicely, and he give a condemned looked. Now, tell me, who is contradicating? Or rather, both are station manager (Most likely) and why is that the now station manager / CSO got higher authority than the previous one despite being same position.
Even no need 3 days, you can change it to like morning tell them say afternoon or evening (Avoid public crowd please)/ night, also can.
Sometimes, while I wont say is worth the effort, and I avoid a flame war, but it is matter of rights because the fate lies on tricky lawyers' mouth.
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Originally posted by Samuel Lee:
This is not about hooliganism as no violence involved. Now the problem lies at you cannot even read simple English. Now, yes the staff like Station Manager has the authority in station business, BUT is there a law or a rule set by SMRT/LTA whatever above (Since you so go by authority) than these CSO / Station Manager that they have the right to issue such permission in the first place? If no, then they are ABUSING their authority. Just because policemen or CID (No uniform leh, how to know real or fake -- a bit OT here) tell you take out your IC then you take out? They should go certain standard procedure like showing their pass and citing their reasons for doing so, including suspecting one for hanging for long time / late night or finding suspects etc. Or rather, just because I am the leader of a country (IF), does that equates to I can corrupt whatever I like, or kill anybody I like just because I got the authority!
I didn't talk about hooliganism in the station (okay I did, but not in the violent sense). I'm talking about hooliganism in this thread. Please don't come and tell me that what you just said is gentlemanly.
You defy authority at a public transit station and write posts like this in cyberspace, and you still expect people to respect your pastime.
Sigh.....
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Originally posted by NickLim™:
Hey hey hey, what's with this company-ist replies? The way any company work will be very different from each other. He didn't even talk about KTM yet. Why did you have to do that? Even MTR in Hong Kong and MTR-operated Connex in Melbourne, Australia operate differently okay?
You think asking KTM staff always work? You have no idea how many times I have been rejected.
Fine, let me give you a damn fine example of Singapore Railways. I ask when I shoot at Punggol LRT station, permission granted. I ask if I can board the train on the Sengkang West Loop for some random HDB tour, granted. With a personal guide (staff) on board pointing out to me the depot systems and the future plans of Punggol LRT. I ask if I can film the Sentosa Monorail... Heck. Just check my gallery and YouTube okay? You'll notice that I shoot SMRT trains from the outside only.
Your argument on KTM was really out of point. Just like all your other arguments involving externalities. I sincerely hope you'll stop this. Let's get back to topic.
Ok, sorry, I apologize for that, as just now I was a bit heated up.
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Originally posted by fudgester:
I didn't talk about hooliganism in the station (okay I did, but not in the violent sense). I'm talking about hooliganism in this thread. Please don't come and tell me that what you just said is gentlemanly.
You defy authority at a public transit station and write posts like this in cyberspace, and you still expect people to respect your pastime.
Sigh.....
So in your definition, many lawyers' argument and fight for their client case is also hooliganism? Hello, I am ��力争, accroding to facts provided and prove to it, do you have evidence to say that these "Authorities" (Station Manager) are given the rights to do that as somebody else said that by right it is not allowed , except that it is not in the written sense yet?
This is not like some copyright ownership where one cannot derive works from another unless the author allows it through any communication method because, in this case, the station manager / CSO are in no position of the author in this case, which should be the directors of SMRT and / or LTA.
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I think you owe people apology. We are trying to keep it cool here.
I told ya I'll have a meeting with SMRT staffs, so just wait till I get their say.
Before that, I'd like to apologise if I have offended any train fans directly/indirectly and caused a small matter becoming big.
Till them, keep it cool.
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Originally posted by Samuel Lee:
So in your definition, many lawyers' argument and fight for their client case is also hooliganism? Hello, I am ��力争, accroding to facts provided and prove to it, do you have evidence to say that these "Authorities" (Station Manager) are given the rights to do that as somebody else said that by right it is not allowed , except that it is not in the written sense yet?
This is not like some copyright ownership where one cannot derive works from another unless the author allows it through any communication method because, in this case, the station manager / CSO are in no position of the author in this case, which should be the directors of SMRT and / or LTA.
Now you're still behaving like a hooligan.
As Nick has said, just go up to a staff member and ask for permission. If they give permission, good for you. If they don't, walk off. It's that simple.
All I'm saying is, by all means pursue your pastime, but within reasonable limits. You want to kick up a fuss with station masters over your hobby, then that's your choice. But are a few photographs and video clips seriously worth all the trouble of arguing with station staff and risking having them call the cops on you?
While you may not get charged with taking photographs, you may get charged with creating a public disturbance. At the very least, you waste a few hours of your time getting questioned by station staff and cops. Is it worth it?
But never mind, I'm exiting this thread. It is entirely your choice to take your photos without approval. If you want to create a fuss over it, then be prepared to accept whatever consequences that may come.
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Originally posted by fudgester:
Now you're still behaving like a hooligan.
As Nick has said, just go up to a staff member and ask for permission. If they give permission, good for you. If they don't, walk off. It's that simple.
All I'm saying is, by all means pursue your pastime, but within reasonable limits. You want to kick up a fuss with station masters over your hobby, then that's your choice. But are a few photographs and video clips seriously worth all the trouble of arguing with station staff and risking having them call the cops on you?
While you may not get charged with taking photographs, you may get charged with creating a public disturbance. At the very least, you waste a few hours of your time getting questioned by station staff and cops. Is it worth it?
But never mind, I'm exiting this thread. It is entirely your choice to take your photos without approval. If you want to create a fuss over it, then be prepared to accept whatever consequences that may come.
As I said, you still dont understand either, if these people have no authority to do that because it is not in the law, then neither can these staffs instruct can or cannot video taking. I will heed to Interception_7's advice to stop discussing until the final verdict is out because right now all can just based on what is there and argue for facts. This is definetely not hooliganism in the thread because it is stating facts, and I have apologized for the company-ist comment which had then censored somehow (Instead of totally removing).
And my main point is ask can ask, they elite uncaring is their business, but are they in position to say NO instead of what train fans think a YES? I doubt this point and you are the one more hooligan to twist what I said.......
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Originally posted by Interception_7:
I think you owe people apology. We are trying to keep it cool here.
I told ya I'll have a meeting with SMRT staffs, so just wait till I get their say.
Before that, I'd like to apologise if I have offended any train fans directly/indirectly and caused a small matter becoming big.
Till them, keep it cool.
I had apologized for earlier company-ist comment which had pointed out by NickLim and had since censored in changing the fonts into white instead. I will keep it cool and just want to know the facts. I also wonder when the train fans are in no authority to film, then who are these CSO / Station Manager in authority to give permission when they are not the ones who write the Rapid Transit Act or own the MRT company.
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And do note that I am not the one suggesting using lies ok!!!
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Chill guys.
Samuel, if you wanna discuss about this matter, I would suggest that you keep the "not-so-friendly" sentences and words out of this thread as it would tends to sway a person point of view regarding a certain matter.
From my point of view, what Samuel has said have made some points too. Is it stated inside the law that photography or videography is not allowed within train station? If someone managed to get an official black and white source stating it, it is only then we can conclude that it is illegal. But from the previous discussion, all you guys have are "verbal law". So before you guys condemn him, show some solid proof first.
Secondly, what is the difference between shooting a photo/video inside the station and outside the station? Do you know that the people involved in the Yishun incident shot the video from the roadside outside the station? If so, does it mean that as long as the camera is facing the station, it is illegal? Then what about the street view function in Google Earth? Is what NickLim™ and the rest doing even legal even if he and the rest only shot the video from outside of the station premise?
I am a person of logic. If you guys find any of my point invalid, feel free to let me know. =)
By the way Interception, since you're going to meet with SMRT, how about asking them the depot tour thing too? It has been quite awhile since you've sent out the request.
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Originally posted by E5:
Chill guys.
Samuel, if you wanna discuss about this matter, I would suggest that you keep the "not-so-friendly" sentences and words out of this thread as it would tends to sway a person point of view regarding a certain matter.
From my point of view, what Samuel has said have made some points too. Is it stated inside the law that photography or videography is not allowed within train station? If someone managed to get an official black and white source stating it, it is only then we can conclude that it is illegal. But from the previous discussion, all you guys have are "verbal law". So before you guys condemn him, show some solid proof first.
Secondly, what is the difference between shooting a photo/video inside the station and outside the station? Do you know that the people involved in the Yishun incident shot the video from the roadside outside the station? If so, does it mean that as long as the camera is facing the station, it is illegal? Then what about the street view function in Google Earth? Is what NickLim™ and the rest doing even legal even if he and the rest only shot the video from outside of the station premise?
I am a person of logic. If you guys find any of my point invalid, feel free to let me know. =)
By the way Interception, since you're going to meet with SMRT, how about asking them the depot tour thing too? It has been quite awhile since you've sent out the request.+1, but a bit too late, since fudgester the so called judge had exit the thread because he has "humiliated" by me due to his lack of trains knowledge either.
By the way, the reason why Interception's good intention of politely asking SMRT for depot tour had no updates from him, because as he had admitted, no response from SMRT either!
While it dont kill for such politely asking, but think again, why SMRT rejects? Because to them (Especially those who are not friendly ones which defintely not from some staffs that train fans have known of, or rather, having a nice chat etc before --- not always need to go in to TO cabin like some rare special experience by some fans.), we are just nothing or nuts.
And to everybody outta there, I am a one who always appeal this and that until I got it or it is really no abuse of authority and my view / request is illegal etc. Simple. So dont think that you are a judge by a nickname and can condemn me here there upside down, because.......
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Originally posted by E5:Is what NickLim™ and the rest doing even legal even if he and the rest only shot the video from outside of the station premise?
I am a person of logic. If you guys find any of my point invalid, feel free to let me know. =)
Oi walau. I alr said I have permission. Can you like read my post?
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Originally posted by E5:
By the way Interception, since you're going to meet with SMRT, how about asking them the depot tour thing too? It has been quite awhile since you've sent out the request.
They have agreed on the depot tour, BUT, I won't be releasing the details out. Discussions will still be on going. -
Originally posted by Samuel Lee:
1) +1, but a bit too late, since fudgester the so called judge had exit the thread because he has "humiliated" by me due to his lack of trains knowledge either.
2) By the way, the reason why Interception's good intention of politely asking SMRT for depot tour had no updates from him, because as he had admitted, no response from SMRT either!
1) Fudgester came in as a neutral person to give his opinion. This has nothing to do wih any knowledge about trains.2) I have personally contacted the Corporate Communications department about the depot tour, and they have agreed. So before you (Samuel Lee) give out any judgemental remarks about SMRT giving no updates, think again.
I am doing a favor for you guys, so please keep the discussion to a minimum. In other words, speak neutrally.
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cool...I've never been to a depot tour before...they rarely advertised or have it frequently as far as I remembered...
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I regreted my decision now. I hope you all can stop arguing over this. I dont want to see a fight on this sunday (though likely I can't go). We will look at this problem another time. For now, just do the maximum of what can be done, like if you are willing to ask them, then ask, if not then forget it. If personnel ask you about what you are doing, just tell them its your hobby. My suggestion is everyone to bring an article of the newspaper around :) hahas.
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Originally posted by NickLim™:
Oi walau. I alr said I have permission. Can you like read my post?
Would you also read my post that the question is do they as the station manager have the right to give permission as well? Maybe in KTM yes, the station manager have the rights to give or deny such permission but maybe no for SMRT, who knows, as you have pointed out earlier different companies work differently and moreover SMRT and SBST are under Railway Transit Act while other rail roads no.
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Originally posted by Interception_7:
1) Fudgester came in as a neutral person to give his opinion. This has nothing to do wih any knowledge about trains.2) I have personally contacted the Corporate Communications department about the depot tour, and they have agreed. So before you (Samuel Lee) give out any judgemental remarks about SMRT giving no updates, think again.
I am doing a favor for you guys, so please keep the discussion to a minimum. In other words, speak neutrally.
1: Fudgester is not coming in as neutral person, given that he clamining about hooliganism in the thread where what I am saying is based on facts, maybe it does not sound nice and given that he think he is a judge for no reason as well. Last but not least, he just left away because he had nothing to prove me wrong (Except the so called hooliganism, which is common by our leaders to fix the oppositions -- this is OT but real-life example)!
2: That is because today they have the response AFTER you have met them to clarify about this thread, so without this thread, you wont be getting any updates on it, please think again.
3: Although I looked and sounded very heated up, but think again, I am not in the list of Youtube filmmers since I dont make any train videos as of yet, what is the verdict is none of my business! Actually, I am trying to point out that either we CAN or CANNOT do these. We do not want to sabotage any staffs, just by asking them for permission when no such law exists or actually not allowed, and if they sympathy / or one who have more passion in trains rather than treating it as a 9 - 5 chore, maybe we are not doing his / her favour as well. Think again. If really cannot, I suggest we dont even ask them, just no videos can liao. (Although bit hard to do BVE, sadzzzz........) . Unless, someone can prove to me actually it is neither and like school like that, need ask permission to go toilets from teachers during lesson time, fine, you win.
And last but not least, it is because of you saying this thread to be pure bull****, dont u dare to deny that makes me boiled!
Originally posted by Interception_7:This is just pure bull****.
You want film, go get written permission.
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Originally posted by LTnF1fan:
I regreted my decision now. I hope you all can stop arguing over this. I dont want to see a fight on this sunday (though likely I can't go). We will look at this problem another time. For now, just do the maximum of what can be done, like if you are willing to ask them, then ask, if not then forget it. If personnel ask you about what you are doing, just tell them its your hobby. My suggestion is everyone to bring an article of the newspaper around :) hahas.
Unfortunately, if people still think it is bull**** or whatever, I dont really think there can be peace. Like some fellow forumers stated, why go through the trouble for arguing and wasting effort and / or time? Now I tell you, people fight for real reasons and truth, so why dont tell those political criminals (Like Aung San Suu Kyi etc) stop fighting for democracy and freedom, and listen to authorities! (OT, but what I am saying Fudgester is nothing but nonsense, this , I still wont take it as Hooliganism, despite being more personal attacks against him than previous ones).
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Last but not least, it is wiser to think again who I am, and check my profile first. If you "block my route without a real reason", you are as good as "using a human body to block a Kawasaki C151", dont say I did not warn anybody before hand.
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Originally posted by Samuel Lee:
Would you also read my post that the question is do they as the station manager have the right to give permission as well? Maybe in KTM yes, the station manager have the rights to give or deny such permission but maybe no for SMRT, who knows, as you have pointed out earlier different companies work differently and moreover SMRT and SBST are under Railway Transit Act while other rail roads no.
I said it once and I'll say it again. Wny the hell are you comparing SMRT with KTM?
When I take pics, I'll just ask the first person I'll see. If they say yes, why would I want to ask them a second question of "Are you authorised to give me permission?" That would be suicide.
I'm inquisitive now. After all these talk about companies, are you a railway fan or just simply an SMRT fan?
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Originally posted by NickLim™:
I said it once and I'll say it again. Wny the hell are you comparing SMRT with KTM?
When I take pics, I'll just ask the first person I'll see. If they say yes, why would I want to ask them a second question of "Are you authorised to give me permission?" That would be suicide.
I'm inquisitive now. After all these talk about companies, are you a railway fan or just simply an SMRT fan?
Not really, I am no fan of a company (Based on my text, do I even look like SMRT fan and no -- I seemed more like condemn them, so put facts right first) and I am not comparing and I apologize if you cant read the difference because I do apperciate the facts of difference between each companies' policies, regardless of which rail road, the main thing is are they in permission to give rights. So based on your theory does that mean that if you see a station janitor in any rail road in the world and ask for permission then can lor? Why dont ask the nearby Ticketing counter as well or even better, ask permission from other passengers or nearby shop owners if applicable since they are also could be the first one you see?
Furthermore, history have shown once and again that sometimes who you have asked simply in no rights to give such permission, so they deny and reasonable. I wont ask anybody to go against it unless you managed to saw someone else and ask and luckily he/she got the real authority to allow or deny any request of yours. (Which will change your fate, dude!)
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Originally posted by Samuel Lee:
Not really, and I am not comparing and I apologize if you cant read the difference because I do apperciate the facts of difference, regardless of which rail road, the main thing is are they in permission to give rights. So based on your theory does that mean that if you see a station janitor and ask then can?
Comparing companies in this situation is like comparing an apple and a durian. Both are fruits but what they contain, how they look and how they are formed are totally different.
Obviously when asking someone for anything, you need common sense. Do I need to be so accurate as to tell you to look for a tanned guy wearing a red shirt and blackpants working in an office at co-ordinates N whatever and E whatever, to ask him with the phrasing pertaining to, but not necessarily worded to, "Is it possible for me to take pictures here?" with instructions with carrying out the plan if the results come out positive or otherwise? Come on dude. You're 1 year my senior but I'm not sure about your maturity.
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Originally posted by Samuel Lee:Originally posted by Interception_7:
1) Fudgester came in as a neutral person to give his opinion. This has nothing to do wih any knowledge about trains.2) I have personally contacted the Corporate Communications department about the depot tour, and they have agreed. So before you (Samuel Lee) give out any judgemental remarks about SMRT giving no updates, think again.
I am doing a favor for you guys, so please keep the discussion to a minimum. In other words, speak neutrally.
1: Fudgester is not coming in as neutral person, given that he clamining about hooliganism in the thread where what I am saying is based on facts, maybe it does not sound nice and given that he think he is a judge for no reason as well. Last but not least, he just left away because he had nothing to prove me wrong (Except the so called hooliganism, which is common by our leaders to fix the oppositions -- this is OT but real-life example)!
2: That is because today they have the response AFTER you have met them to clarify about this thread, so without this thread, you wont be getting any updates on it, please think again.
3: Although I looked and sounded very heated up, but think again, I am not in the list of Youtube filmmers since I dont make any train videos as of yet, what is the verdict is none of my business! Actually, I am trying to point out that either we CAN or CANNOT do these. We do not want to sabotage any staffs, just by asking them for permission when no such law exists or actually not allowed, and if they sympathy / or one who have more passion in trains rather than treating it as a 9 - 5 chore, maybe we are not doing his / her favour as well. Think again. If really cannot, I suggest we dont even ask them, just no videos can liao. (Although bit hard to do BVE, sadzzzz........) . Unless, someone can prove to me actually it is neither and like school like that, need ask permission to go toilets from teachers during lesson time, fine, you win.
And last but not least, it is because of you saying this thread to be pure bull****, dont u dare to deny that makes me boiled!
That a neutral person like fudge came up with "hooligan" tells a lot about your attitude.
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Originally posted by NickLim™:
Comparing companies in this situation is like comparing an apple and a durian. Both are fruits but what they contain, how they look and how they are formed are totally different.
Obviously when asking someone for anything, you need common sense. Do I need to be so accurate as to tell you to look for a tanned guy wearing a red shirt and blackpants working in an office at co-ordinates N whatever and E whatever, to ask him with the phrasing pertaining to, but not necessarily worded to, "Is it possible for me to take pictures here?" with instructions with carrying out the plan if the results come out positive or otherwise? Come on dude. You're 1 year my senior but I'm not sure about your maturity.
Ok, sorry, back to topic, this is simply saying asking the first PSO as accurate answer, fair enough, credits goes to you, but, even if you think by knowing whether are they in authority to give such permission is a suicide, why? You know your teacher got the authority to give permission to leave the classroom during lesson time, so if they deny it is reasonable and understandable, regardless how one may dislike it. But in this case, if station manager in no position to give authority, then tell that they dont and we just walk off with no videos. I dont wish to see any station manager from any rail road in the world pretending to have the authority to yaya papaya first when they are not either. If they dun know if allowed or not, and pity / sympathy with the train fans, they should not permit us to film either, at most he / she should say personally, i will allow but, it is not stated clearly and please do it short and quick if possible to avoid potential troubles. Now the main topic is about unfriendly CSO / PSO abusing power (When they do not have the right stated black and white in transit acts or company policy, and they permit videoing without any fore-warned warning also included in abusing of power, get this straight first). I am sure even if mine maturity is not as high as your proclamied standards, but I am sure I know how to read posts carefully, though I admit that the previous post is a bit too hard and harsh.