Problems for not running 24-hour MRT
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I read with interest your page on getting MRT to run through the night. While this might at first seem like a good idea, I fell compelled to point out some problems, and tell you why I will oppose any such move.
- Engineering work takes place after most people think that the network has shut down. In fact, the network never shuts down, even at weekends. The MRT's 24 hours are divided into two areas: 20 "traffic hours" (when passenger trains run) and 4 "engineering hours" (when maintenance is performed).
- Track and signals maintenance must be carried out when trains are not running, otherwise it is not safe for the workers. It is not possible for a worker to step out of the path of a train while he or she is working in a tunnel.
- Keeping the system in passenger service through the night would encourage drinkers to stay in the pubs for longer and consume more alcohol. When they then enter a station, they will pose a greater danger to themselves and others. For example, drunks often drop items onto the track, then go down to retrieve it. When you hear announcements like, "Attention please, train services are suspended because of a person under a train" it is just as likely to be this situation as, say, a suicide attempt. Sometimes they just fall over edge of the platform.
- Station staff are not paid to be security guards, but often have to prevent drinkers from travelling for reasons of their own safety. Even when the member of staff is being as diplomatic as possible, the passengers often become aggressive. All night opening would only make such situations worse.
- Each journey will become more expensive because more staff will have to be employed to cover the shifts. Remember also that nightshift workers will demand higher rates of pay than those working more sociable hours. The most significant improvement is having more people to do duties.
- MRT employees have families too. Shift work is hard enough without night work.
- If the MRT does begin running passenger services 24 hours per day, I shall demand that all schools can open 24-hour, or regardless that is nightlife. Morning peak and evening peak may be less crowded, because it will transition to day and night shift work.
- MRT employees pay taxes and GST. MRT employees pay for other companies services. MRT employees pay other people's wages when they use their services. MRT employees have equal rights and their opinions matter as much as anyone else's.
I read with interest your page on getting MRT to run through the night. While this might at first seem like a good idea, I fell compelled to point out some problems, and tell you why I will oppose any such move.
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Sometimes MRT will be very noisy when people sleeps at night (from 11pm to 7am), especially aircraft limitations to QC/4, and QC/4 is the maximum levels in immigration checkpoints.
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Originally posted by TPS Timothy Mok:
I read with interest your page on getting MRT to run through the night. While this might at first seem like a good idea, I fell compelled to point out some problems, and tell you why I will oppose any such move.
- Engineering work takes place after most people think that the network has shut down. In fact, the network never shuts down, even at weekends. The MRT's 24 hours are divided into two areas: 20 "traffic hours" (when passenger trains run) and 4 "engineering hours" (when maintenance is performed).
- Track and signals maintenance must be carried out when trains are not running, otherwise it is not safe for the workers. It is not possible for a worker to step out of the path of a train while he or she is working in a tunnel.
- Keeping the system in passenger service through the night would encourage drinkers to stay in the pubs for longer and consume more alcohol. When they then enter a station, they will pose a greater danger to themselves and others. For example, drunks often drop items onto the track, then go down to retrieve it. When you hear announcements like, "Attention please, train services are suspended because of a person under a train" it is just as likely to be this situation as, say, a suicide attempt. Sometimes they just fall over edge of the platform.
- Station staff are not paid to be security guards, but often have to prevent drinkers from travelling for reasons of their own safety. Even when the member of staff is being as diplomatic as possible, the passengers often become aggressive. All night opening would only make such situations worse.
- Each journey will become more expensive because more staff will have to be employed to cover the shifts. Remember also that nightshift workers will demand higher rates of pay than those working more sociable hours. The most significant improvement is having more people to do duties.
- MRT employees have families too. Shift work is hard enough without night work.
- If the MRT does begin running passenger services 24 hours per day, I shall demand that all schools can open 24-hour, or regardless that is nightlife. Morning peak and evening peak may be less crowded, because it will transition to day and night shift work.
- MRT employees pay taxes and GST. MRT employees pay for other companies services. MRT employees pay other people's wages when they use their services. MRT employees have equal rights and their opinions matter as much as anyone else's.
I read with interest your page on getting MRT to run through the night. While this might at first seem like a good idea, I fell compelled to point out some problems, and tell you why I will oppose any such move.
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Sometimes MRT will be very noisy when people sleeps at night (from 11pm to 7am), especially aircraft limitations to QC/4, and QC/4 is the maximum levels in immigration checkpoints.
1. Yeah. They do maintenance work on selected stretches, from 1am to 5am.
2. Events are also guarded by policeman, not SMRT staff.
3. They may put up roadblocks (sobriety checkpoints).
4. Man the guard whole day long.
5. Travel fares (EZ-Link) may increase, even if charge $0.69, it may be $1.50 for 24-hours MRT !
6. MRT officers have families too. 12-hour shift is considered, for public holidays and if not, 6-hour shifts.
7. Yeah. Offices, schools will be classified as 'day' and 'night'.
8. Staff have GST.
9. Yeah. 9th point not possible to operate 24-hours. Those people living near tracks need to sleep.
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the metro in queens, new york runs from 12 midnight to 4 am but closes during the day. If on the 1st of jan 2000 can run 24 hours, why not run 24 hours on saturdays, sundays and public holidays? 1 day means from 1am, say jan1, to 12 midnight. Run 24 hours and people can go out at 1am too. Besides, the night buses need to be complemented by the MRT.
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they do need maintenance what!!
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maintenance can be handled by redundancy or even shutting down for multiple 10 short periods in between the day. The possibilities are there.
All your difficulties on shift work also exist for manufacturing like semi-con industries. If they can manage, it's not really a big problem if it is judged that it is worth it. In other words, it is not a limitation.
What does MRT operation got to do with schools?
The main issue is still whether it is worth it to provide the service 24/7
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It is possible, but we have to sacrifice on the frequency. I believe it's possible to have half-hourly intervals for all the lines between 12 to 5am, with trains operating using a single track. Crossings can be done at:
- Between Boon Lay and Lakeside stations (main line), Outram Park TBS and Tanah Merah station for the East West Line
- Between Braddell and Bishan stations (long loop incl. 2 stations) or Ang Mo Kio station, Yishun station and Woodlands TBS for the North South Line
- TBS between Farrer Park and Little India for the North East LineThe tracks can be switched between the upline and the down line depending on the maintenance schedule. A premium will definitely be charged (maybe fares from $3 with ez-link card). If it still compromises with the maintenance schedule, this service can only operate on Fridays, Saturdays and eve of Public Holidays, 4 trains on EWL, 4 trains on NSL and 2 trains on NEL. If you guys are interested, I may come up with a suggested timetable to further explain this concept.
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Check out old SMRT articles.
There is one shift, particularly interests me. Passenger train operator. Start work 10 pm (read: 2200 hrs), drive last trains, keep at depot, overnight rest/play games/socialize, drive first train at 4 plus 5, off duty just before/during morning peak.
Now, no more such shift.
Circa 10 years ago.
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i think we can do it, but naturally it will cost more money
still if the idea goes ahead, my bet is on underground train stations to be the ones running 24/7
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I would say that... this idea might be feasible.. however we must not expect the train service to come like every 4-6 minutes but instead every 30 minutes from 0001-0300 and every 45 minutes from 0301-0545.
Naturally the price fees will increase if this idea is put into used. However, the price increment should only be subjected to the passengers using the midnight/night service, and not to the others that uses the train during the normal working hours.
Naturally, if more and more people stay out late at night, and more and more shops stay opens 24 hours, then we would probably give the government more ideas to exploit us like increasing this and that, ERP 24 hours etc.
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Originally posted by NickL_C151:
It is possible, but we have to sacrifice on the frequency. I believe it's possible to have half-hourly intervals for all the lines between 12 to 5am, with trains operating using a single track. Crossings can be done at:
- Between Boon Lay and Lakeside stations (main line), Outram Park TBS and Tanah Merah station for the East West Line
- Between Braddell and Bishan stations (long loop incl. 2 stations) or Ang Mo Kio station, Yishun station and Woodlands TBS for the North South Line
- TBS between Farrer Park and Little India for the North East LineThe tracks can be switched between the upline and the down line depending on the maintenance schedule. A premium will definitely be charged (maybe fares from $3 with ez-link card). If it still compromises with the maintenance schedule, this service can only operate on Fridays, Saturdays and eve of Public Holidays, 4 trains on EWL, 4 trains on NSL and 2 trains on NEL. If you guys are interested, I may come up with a suggested timetable to further explain this concept.
wad is TBS?
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Originally posted by TPS Timothy Mok:
wad is TBS?
Turnback Siding
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Originally posted by hisoka:
maintenance can be handled by redundancy or even shutting down for multiple 10 short periods in between the day. The possibilities are there.
All your difficulties on shift work also exist for manufacturing like semi-con industries. If they can manage, it's not really a big problem if it is judged that it is worth it. In other words, it is not a limitation.
What does MRT operation got to do with schools?
The main issue is still whether it is worth it to provide the service 24/7
Semi-con is quieter, and in the same location...
MRT movements can be rather noisy to people staying near them... Light sleepers wouldn't want an MRT to disturb them in their sleep every now and then.
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Price increase can starts at 0100 to 0500hr with interval at 30 min.
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It is not commercial viable to run the trains for 24 hr as the number of passengers decrease drastically after midnight. I would suggest SBS introduce bus services connecting to the various HDB estates at half an hour interval after midnight. The services should also cover areas to hospitals, airports,etc. Not everyone can afford taxi fares after midnight which has surchage of 50%.
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Originally posted by eagle:
Semi-con is quieter, and in the same location...
MRT movements can be rather noisy to people staying near them... Light sleepers wouldn't want an MRT to disturb them in their sleep every now and then.
and light sleepers don't want to stay near the highway or roads too. end of the day, people will either move away or bear with it. even now people will hesitate if their house is near the tracks or a highway as they will be disturbed.
It is a concern, but I seriously doubt if it is a big concern for the operators/regulators.
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Well, with the above statements, NEL seems like the only possible line to be profitable for the 24 hour service. Here's the timetable to simulate how the trains can operate using a single track at 45 min frequency.
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Originally posted by BJK:
It is not commercial viable to run the trains for 24 hr as the number of passengers decrease drastically after midnight. I would suggest SBS introduce bus services connecting to the various HDB estates at half an hour interval after midnight. The services should also cover areas to hospitals, airports,etc. Not everyone can afford taxi fares after midnight which has surchage of 50%.
Need more drivers to ply the road. -
i would agree with TPS tim mok here, since we must not forget, all this trains run on 1 thing in common, rail tracks, and different sections of the track are prone to wear and tear but will give problems at different times. assume when running 24hr are you're willing to wait for say maybe 20mins to 1 hr delay on a worn out part of track like say around 11am to 12pm or maybe 1pm to 2pm or even 7am to 8am??
if theres no downtime for some critical maintaince, then the only down time would result in a delay, which they have to be answereble to only only their top bosses, but to the public and maybe LTA too.
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Originally posted by hisoka:
maintenance can be handled by redundancy or even shutting down for multiple 10 short periods in between the day. The possibilities are there.
All your difficulties on shift work also exist for manufacturing like semi-con industries. If they can manage, it's not really a big problem if it is judged that it is worth it. In other words, it is not a limitation.
What does MRT operation got to do with schools?
The main issue is still whether it is worth it to provide the service 24/7
the special train checking for track faults does not move at the same speed as service trains. it is impossible to have repairs done even in-between non-peak train frequency of 6.5 minutes, not to mention the train slowdown and possibility of total disruption should a step that takes more than just a few minutes be required during track repairs.
and there is no way for track redundancy – there is only one permanent way in each direction.
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Originally posted by BJK:
It is not commercial viable to run the trains for 24 hr as the number of passengers decrease drastically after midnight. I would suggest SBS introduce bus services connecting to the various HDB estates at half an hour interval after midnight. The services should also cover areas to hospitals, airports,etc. Not everyone can afford taxi fares after midnight which has surchage of 50%.
look at the ridership of SMRT NightRider services when there were 22 of them running every weekend.
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Originally posted by hisoka:
and light sleepers don't want to stay near the highway or roads too. end of the day, people will either move away or bear with it. even now people will hesitate if their house is near the tracks or a highway as they will be disturbed.
It is a concern, but I seriously doubt if it is a big concern for the operators/regulators.
that's true too
but I wouldn't want to be the engineer needing to do the mainteance, and yet get interrupted every so often by a night train that needs to pass.
I would rather work the full 4 hours and ensure everything is sui sui before letting the first train in the morning run... Anything wrong with the track and the train goes haywire... sure kenna big time...
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PTOs are profit-driven. They have no intention of running a competition of their own night buses against their own train routes.
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Originally posted by ^tamago^:
the special train checking for track faults does not move at the same speed as service trains. it is impossible to have repairs done even in-between non-peak train frequency of 6.5 minutes, not to mention the train slowdown and possibility of total disruption should a step that takes more than just a few minutes be required during track repairs.
and there is no way for track redundancy – there is only one permanent way in each direction.
Thanks...I agreed. -
Maybe they can open different sections of the lines at diff timings...
at least that should solve the problem of time to maintain the tracks,but such services may not even be enough for passengers...
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People could always take late night taxis since they want to stay out late anyway.