The Backdoor Debate
-
Alright dota players.. we've all seen it happen.. what do you all think? Is backdooring a legitimate strategy (that means from the onstart, item and skill builds should be geared to prepare for backdooring late game) or should backdooring be illegal?
I've spent sometime reading the argument over at dota-allstars.com (from now on known as DAS). TDA defines backdooring as "teleporting into base and taking out buildings".. the grey area occurs when a pumped up sven or a manta-ed medusa or a windwalking clinkz WALKS (keyword: WALKS) into the base and SOLOs the base. Is that backdooring? -
Backdooring is illegitimate in TDA or WCG. Only u can get to their base provided your creeps are there. However in pubs who cares..lol
-
WCG
"Teleport Backdooring (Warning or Game Loss): Teleporting directly into back of opponents' base or into the forest/trees area of opponents' base through the use of the Teleport Skill (from Furion) or Boots of Travel is banned. However, teleporting just outside opponent's base and walking in (including windwalking or blinking) is not considered back dooring and is hence allowed. “Base” here is defined as the area bordered by edge structures inside the base at both the Sentinel and Scourge side. The outer most two towers in each lane are not considered as border of base. "
(http://sg.worldcybergames.com/ocg_010.html)
IGS Dota League
"#4 Backdooring. Heroes that can teleport (Furion) and backdoor will be banned for exploit. This includes teleporting onto the KOTL ultimate(not just furion, anyone with BOT). All other heroes may backdoor. To further clarify, you CAN backdoor with furion / KOTL... what you cannot do is use any type of teleportation such as teleporting onto KOTL ulti with BOT or using furion's teleport spell (even with morph) to TP inside the enemies base. You can teleport near it, like in the forest below it, and then walk in, that is ok. You simply can't TP directly inside their base, or right next to a tower in their base etc... This is not in black in white as to the radius of how far you need to be to not get banned for TPing into their base, as usual, mods will have full discretion when deciding, don't be stupid about it. "
(http://leagues.theigs.com/dota/Rules.asp)
So if we clearly define backdooring as teleporting into opponent's base it's not allowed. But what about windwalking to the person's base? What about an overpowered Sven who solo's towers and bases?What about furion running in raising treants and teleporting out of base? -
illegitemate means bastard...Originally posted by Boyish84:Backdooring is illegitimate in TDA or WCG. Only u can get to their base provided your creeps are there. However in pubs who cares..lol
Windwalking or blinking into a person's base should not be allowed. Thats Backdooring. I personally think that backdooring is ok as in walking into the base WITH NO BUFFS ON to whack towers. Manta Style should be a forbidden Item. -
i hate backdoorers..yea pubs are crap because they don't respect the rules..
-
whats wrong with windwalking into enemy base?
-
there is really nothing wrong with late game backdooring.. i used to be very against it as well but if you think about it.. if you allow the opponent's naix or sven or clinkz or bounty hunter to become so powerful that they can solo a tower then you deserve to be backdoored. After all there are plenty of ways to counter backdooring.. u just have to be smart about it and take your dota game to the next level..
But it is still infuriating when you're playing a 3 v 5 game after 2 of your teammates leave early (hence not much pumping of items) and you manage to hold your ground.. then when you start to push.. the enemy uses its numerical superiority to defend and send one hero to backdoor your base..
I think what we are addressing here is an issue with late games. When its a 5 v5 late game and all the heroes are equally matched at level 25.. even if one team of heroes reaches level 25 first and seem to be on the verge of winning, it's only a matter of time before the other team reaches lvl 25 and gets crazy items as well.. then what happens? i've been in games lasting over 2 hours 5 v 5 (pub games leh) and the end result is that both teams frantically farm and try pumping one hero with aegis and rapier, then sending them out to try soloing or doing something outrageous..
How can dota's game play be improved so that "late game-play" doesn't become so stereotyped and still manage to remain as dynamic as the game is in "early game"?? -
Its cheating.Originally posted by the.raven:whats wrong with windwalking into enemy base? -
Maybe what can be done is introduce a death penalty when all heroes reach lvl 25. When Death Penalty is activated, any hero who die will be out of the game.Originally posted by Farmer Brown:How can dota's gameplay be improved so that "late game-play" doesn't become so stereotyped and still manage to remain as dynamic as the game is in "early game"??
This will ensure that the game will not drag to a stage where people start doing outrageous things. A good Dota game should not last more than 1.4 hours.
Another alternative is to rely on the scoresheet to decide who is the winner.
This method can be used if there is no conclusive winner after 1.4 hours. -
IMO it should not drag longer than 80 minutes.
-
when you play inhouses when there are no leavers and everybody is of a certain standard den you will understand how long the game can drag..cuz one push could ultimately mean defeat or victory at the level we are playing at..
-
1 thing is for sure, when enemy backdoor u, backdoor em back
-
I've been thinking and reading the various tactics to counter backdoorers.. and i'll try out a couple of them when i get an opportunity once again.. but in case any of you want some ideas.. the key points of defending a backdoor are:
1) True Sight. (for obvious reasons)
2) Disabler. (to make sure the backdoorer pays dearly for his silly act)
3) Stealth (this is an optional skill which has plenty of advantages... allows you to backdoor enemy as well)
4) Teleportation ability (If your hero cannot naturally blink/tp.. BoT, Scroll of TP and even Dagger helps)
5) BKB (optional but somewhat essential especially since the backdoorer would have to be super pumped to have the confidence to backdoor)
6) Teamwork (the most important of all.. make sure someone's defending when the team attacks)
7) Radiance (if you can afford.. it helps to farm while defending as well)
I should think there's more to it but that's what i've come up so far.. For heroes that would make perfect anti-backdooring..
1) Furion (Sprout and Treants are pretty damn effective)
2) Crazy Nuker (Luna, Rylai, Lion, Lina etc. Lich would NOT be an effective choice since his Ult neeeds to bounce around)
I left techies out for a reason.. he's an excellent defender and farmer.. but at the late stage.. putting him in charge of defending the base isn't a very great idea.. I would rather use him to suicide push because it's extremely difficult for such a slow character with low damage to actually defend.. The best way he can do so.. is stun ward the entire base.. it's much more effective than mining the place especially if you're up against heroes with crazy regen rates.. -
true but u will not be able to defend against the backdoor-er if he really wans to backdoor, i tried b4, once u get in, u will surely do some significant damage, even if u defend, they will push other lanes, farm etc and u lose out.Originally posted by Farmer Brown:I've been thinking and reading the various tactics to counter backdoorers.. and i'll try out a couple of them when i get an opportunity once again.. but in case any of you want some ideas.. the key points of defending a backdoor are:
1) True Sight. (for obvious reasons)
2) Disabler. (to make sure the backdoorer pays dearly for his silly act)
3) Stealth (this is an optional skill which has plenty of advantages... allows you to backdoor enemy as well)
4) Teleportation ability (If your hero cannot naturally blink/tp.. BoT, Scroll of TP and even Dagger helps)
5) BKB (optional but somewhat essential especially since the backdoorer would have to be super pumped to have the confidence to backdoor)
6) Teamwork (the most important of all.. make sure someone's defending when the team attacks)
7) Radiance (if you can afford.. it helps to farm while defending as well)
I should think there's more to it but that's what i've come up so far.. For heroes that would make perfect anti-backdooring..
1) Furion (Sprout and Treants are pretty damn effective)
2) Crazy Nuker (Luna, Rylai, Lion, Lina etc. Lich would NOT be an effective choice since his Ult neeeds to bounce around)
I left techies out for a reason.. he's an excellent defender and farmer.. but at the late stage.. putting him in charge of defending the base isn't a very great idea.. I would rather use him to suicide push because it's extremely difficult for such a slow character with low damage to actually defend.. The best way he can do so.. is stun ward the entire base.. it's much more effective than mining the place especially if you're up against heroes with crazy regen rates..
Conclusion: defend against backdoor-out of the question
best thing to do- backdoor them back -
you pretty much won't be able to stop a clinz from backdooring you with high level items..he goes in,takes down a tower,goes out uses death pact come back in and kill u..
-
not if you don't let him leave the base.. i've played games with furion (i would consider my fave hero) where my furion has agnahim, dagon (at least level 3 [600 dmg]), skadi, bkb, threads and hyper... and i've no problems solo-ing clinkz.. but of course usually the clinkz doesn't have a burize butterfly and deso combo yet.. lol..Originally posted by stellazio:you pretty much won't be able to stop a clinz from backdooring you with high level items..he goes in,takes down a tower,goes out uses death pact come back in and kill u..
yah it would have been easier for me to tp into their base, raise treants.. whack their base until they chase me then tp out.. but i've succesfully defended most of the times even up to 2 heroes..
just plant more wards around and let him ww lor... all you have to do is tree him and he'll be already damn stunned..
but then it becomes a race of who gets rapier aegis first lor..
i'm not saying that you can DEFINITELY stop a clinkz backdoorer.. all i'm saying is that there are ways to stop backdoorers.. and personally i find that more challenging than developing ways to backdoor opponents -
Please don't forget clinz has deathpact,I have seen a clinz do deathpact in the middle of a battle and went on to kill much more..Originally posted by Farmer Brown:not if you don't let him leave the base.. i've played games with furion (i would consider my fave hero) where my furion has agnahim, dagon (at least level 3 [600 dmg]), skadi, bkb, threads and hyper... and i've no problems solo-ing clinkz.. but of course usually the clinkz doesn't have a burize butterfly and deso combo yet.. lol..
yah it would have been easier for me to tp into their base, raise treants.. whack their base until they chase me then tp out.. but i've succesfully defended most of the times even up to 2 heroes..
just plant more wards around and let him ww lor... all you have to do is tree him and he'll be already damn stunned..
but then it becomes a race of who gets rapier aegis first lor..
i'm not saying that you can DEFINITELY stop a clinkz backdoorer.. all i'm saying is that there are ways to stop backdoorers.. and personally i find that more challenging than developing ways to backdoor opponents -
er.. yes.. that's why it's an ulti. But the topic is what can be done about backdooring.. it doesn't specifically refer to just one hero.
-
Sheepstick and Silence him!Originally posted by stellazio:you pretty much won't be able to stop a clinz from backdooring you with high level items..he goes in,takes down a tower,goes out uses death pact come back in and kill u.. -
how about this.. when at night.. lycantrope with balanar they walk to the enemy's base. on their way they saw a double damage. balanar took tt and they went into the enemy base.lycan morph to the dog and he summon wolve. both of them on mask of madness and than thye used their manta's style.than lycan used tt dmg increasing spell. anyone can tell me how the f*ck do u defend against this?
haha was the lycan. juz ystr bloody shiok coz we losing only left one rax. we went on the sweep the raxes at the top and mid. it was 3v5. other teamate was techies=solid defending. other team was at our base they tot they could destroy the tree faster than we destroy their throne. well they were wrong..
but normally, ppl backdoor than for me, i'll get fucking dulan and juz quit. for this case, well they fucking msians and they kp the whole game
-
and which version is that?Originally posted by vsmama:how about this.. when at night.. lycantrope with balanar they walk to the enemy's base. on their way they saw a double damage. balanar took tt and they went into the enemy base.lycan morph to the dog and he summon wolve. both of them on mask of madness and than thye used their manta's style.than lycan used tt dmg increasing spell. anyone can tell me how the f*ck do u defend against this?
haha was the lycan. juz ystr bloody shiok coz we losing only left one rax. we went on the sweep the raxes at the top and mid. it was 3v5. other teamate was techies=solid defending. other team was at our base they tot they could destroy the tree faster than we destroy their throne. well they were wrong..
but normally, ppl backdoor than for me, i'll get fucking dulan and juz quit. for this case, well they fucking msians and they kp the whole game -
5.84c. but does it really matter?Originally posted by snk86:and which version is that? -
Play Version 6.19...no one can backdoor in that version....
-
huh? why cannot backdoor lehz?Originally posted by shade343:Play Version 6.19...no one can backdoor in that version.... -
actually i think it's okay to backdoor when ur team has leavers, and u find urself in a 4v5 game.
but i always find fuckers backdooring when they have 5 and we have 3 or 4 heroes.