Continuation of "Poetry - Proper writing styles"
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The previous topic was closed, but I'd already composed a reply to Expiring Poet so I thought I'll create a new topic to faciliate this.
Originally posted by expiringpoet:
Hmm how do I explain this?
peebrain - i understand what you're saying on the form and structure...am inspired by ur words about how the structure and form elavates the written word. I'm also trying to understand how one can detract from the standard form and still be said to be following the structure. Example i have is the haiku, which is supposed to be 17 syllables (?) and in stanzas of 5,7,5, if i remember correctly. But i also noticed that writers take liberties with the form, so is it still considered a haiku?
Again, when i think about the form, i get super stressed! Anyway, tks for yr advise.
Deviations to the form usually means [b]tweaking the standard requirements to enhance your message.
For instance, the sonnet. Typically, it has the most rigid structure -- abab, cdcd, efef, gg (that's Shakespearean, I think) in iambic meter -- and if you read Bacon and Shakespeare, the trend is to make each verse complete on its own.
Very seldom you see the use of enjambement (run-on lines) in sonnets. However, poets like Sophie Hannah use enjambement to great effect -- and still keeps very strictly to the rhyme scheme.
As for the haiku question -- are you sure the writers weren't writing senryu instead?
Because haiku is always 5,7,5 -- as it is a style originating from Japan, and the rhythm created from the 5,7,5 structure is the reason why haikus have a beautiful tone and cadence.
Unless of course, the extra syllable is meant to be omitted when read out aloud. Do you happen to have the example in question? -
No problem peebrain.Originally posted by peebrain:The previous topic was closed, but I'd already composed a reply to Expiring Poet so I thought I'll create a new topic to faciliate this.
Let's continue the discussion here.
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Please correct me if I am mistaken but I thought senryu is similar in form to the haiku?Originally posted by peebrain:As for the haiku question -- are you sure the writers weren't writing senryu instead?
From what I understand the main between haiku and senryu is that senryu is concern with human condition rather than nature and are often humorous or even erotic in nature.
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You're right -- the senryu is similar in construction, but I've found that writers of senyru are more flexible in terms of the number of syllables they use. There's also a difference in tone. Senryus typically stick to 17 syllables or less, whereas haiku seem to be more rigid.
There's also the tanka, i think, that has 31 syllables? hmm. -
One good example is John MiltonÂ’s When I consider how my light is spent and for contemporary poet read Tony HarrisonÂ’s Marked with D. He actually defiles convention by having sixteen rather than fourteen lines. Very interesting.Originally posted by peebrain:Very seldom you see the use of enjambement (run-on lines) in sonnets. However, poets like Sophie Hannah use enjambement to great effect -- and still keeps very strictly to the rhyme scheme.
By the way there is a local poet who is also very good in writing sonnet. You can find the link to his poetry blog in my blog. -
Yup. You are right a tanka has an additional of two more lines with 7 syllables each.Originally posted by peebrain:There's also the tanka, i think, that has 31 syllables? hmm. -
chu chi
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rats in dark tunnels
glares at metal locusts
in the warm blue sky
a swarm of bombers wing in
dropping napalm on ghosts.
how's my tanka?
ok, ok i know it's not supposed to rhyme. -
Originally posted by dsnake1:
Hmm. You'll have to explain to me the logic behind it, because the images don't seem to link.
[b]chu chi
=====
rats in dark tunnels
glares at metal locusts
in the warm blue sky
a swarm of bombers wing in
dropping napalm on ghosts.
how's my tanka?
ok, ok i know it's not supposed to rhyme.[/b]
(I have also the world's most logical mind, and poems, for me at least, no matter how rife with metaphors and allusions, must make sense somehow -- forgive me if I am harsh)
So my question is... if the rats are in dark tunnels, how do they see the "metal locusts"? (I like this image, btw). What roles do these rats play? If you're alluding to their possession of shelter as opposed to the people left defenceless against napalm, you'll probably have to be more precise. Not in terms of representation, but in terms of making the image work.
And I also feel that the noun "bombers" clash with the wonderfully imageric "metal locusts" and "napalm on ghosts" because... it's too literal.
(This is also the reason why I don't fancy haikus in general. oops) -
I like the poem. Perhaps i'm not as detailed as PB is when i read a poem, but i do like the mood and feel and vivid imagery of the whole thing.Originally posted by peebrain:So my question is... if the rats are in dark tunnels, how do they see the "metal locusts"? (I like this image, btw). What roles do these rats play?
(This is also the reason why I don't fancy haikus in general. oops)
PB, perhaps the rats are looking at the metal locusts thru some holes in the ground...
I also feel the mention of the rats are good in that it makes the reader immediately think of a scene which is dirty, desperate and dark.
I agree on the haiku thingy. Not enuf space to make the imagery very clear - again, a case of constraints of form over ideas!
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tks for the clarification...but i dont have an example at hand. Actually i've been reading haikus on and off while surfing and this is what i noticed re. the syllables not exactly conforming to the standard form of the 5,7,5.Originally posted by peebrain:Do you happen to have the example in question?
And, yes, i'm sure they were haikus cos the subject matters are mostly on nature, altho there are american haikus that deal with non-nature type of subjects. I'll look around again and see if i can come up with any to share here. -
I found this haiku site. It has some very interesting articles about Haiku and its related forms.
http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiku.htm -
Originally posted by peebrain:
Oops! so the tanka didn't work too well!
Hmm. You'll have to explain to me the logic behind it, because the images don't seem to link.
(I have also the world's most logical mind, and poems, for me at least, no matter how rife with metaphors and allusions, must make sense somehow -- forgive me if I am harsh)
So my question is... if the rats are in dark tunnels, how do they see the "metal locusts"? (I like this image, btw). What roles do these rats play? If you're alluding to their possession of shelter as opposed to the people left defenceless against napalm, you'll probably have to be more precise. Not in terms of representation, but in terms of making the image work.
And I also feel that the noun "bombers" clash with the wonderfully imageric "metal locusts" and "napalm on ghosts" because... it's too literal.
peebrain, it's all right, i welcome the feedback.
Maybe those who read on wars may see the allusions more clearly. Chu Chi is a place in the former South Vietnam famous for its tunnels dug by the guerrilla armies fighting against the Americans in the Vietnam War. The rats allude to the Vietcong hiding in those tunnel complexes. Metal locusts refer to american air power. The VC are like ghosts because they are very elusive. At one time Chu Chi was one of the most bombed areas on earth.
Hope this little history lesson helps in the imaging.
>>I have also the world's most logical mind. heheh, i like that. -
expiringpoet,
glad you like the tanka. only started writing this form recently.
because of its short length, i guess people have different interpretations of the images.
the form suits me fine, i am a lazy writer. -
I got one question. If I've written a few poems, does that make me a poet?
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Well... this question is in the same vein of "I've a camera, I've taken photograhs, so I'm a photographer" as well as "I've written stuff, so that makes me a writer".Originally posted by Hyperion13:I got one question. If I've written a few poems, does that make me a poet?
In my experience, writing poems does not a poet make. I've written essays and stories and articles for almost ten years, and it is only in recent years that I could honestly say I'm a writer, and I write for love and for survival.
When one claims to be a writer/photographer/poet, others will naturally assume that you have the necessary skill sets and toolkits to qualify as one. That includes a knowledge of forms, styles, print requirements, editing skills, critical review that is beyond pedestrian.
If you think you have the above, feel free to call yourself a poet. But before you do this, ask yourself the following:
1. Can my work withstand critical scrutiny? Is it worthy of analysis?
2. Have you made clear your emotions, your reactions in the piece? Is it clearly communicated to the target audience? A poet can be indifferent, but clarity of expression is key.
3. Why did I choose a particular word in the poem? Why have I chosen that voice? Where is its significance? Why are you moved to record to scene and structure the resulting work as such?
4. Does my work have depth? Does it offer room for interpretation, however vastly different from your own? Is there an exchange between the poet and reader?
5. Will I have the courage to revise, draft after draft, a written piece that doesn't work?
6. Most importantly -- do you love the sound of words tumbling from your tongue, the tinkling rhythms created as a result? Can you rip apart your feelings into base factors, reconstruct them into a unique reality that no other can emulate? Could you then use the sparest words to encapsulate the crux of your experience?
Wordsworth once said, "Poetry is the spontaneous overflow of powerful feelings: it takes its origin from emotion recollected in tranquility." I'll go on to say that a poet derives his inspiration from the anguish and exuberance of living, the examination of the human condition.
Writing is a skill driven by motivation, and refined by critical thought. A poet's job is more excruciating by far, because he distill thoughts and emotions into an eloquent frame supported only by words so precise in their arrangement, that any substitute will be for the poorer.
I guess, at the end of this tedious exposition, my point is -- so long as you can justify your position and stance upon your poem is written, so long as others can glean visceral value from your words, your clarity and ambuguity in tandem, feel free to call yourself a poet.
Wait, you wouldn't have to. Others will certainly refer to you as one. -
Hmm...
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Personally, being a poet is being in a certain state of mind. Sometimes you are, sometimes you are not.Originally posted by Hyperion13:I got one question. If I've written a few poems, does that make me a poet?
I use DP as my nick not because I see myself as a poet but because it reminds me of a very good friend whoÂ’ve passed away.
I will elaborate on your question later. I am still in the office.
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Thanks for the link Liz.Originally posted by Bluesky_Liz:I found this haiku site. It has some very interesting articles about Haiku and its related forms.
http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiku.htm -
This is from my blog. I hope it will answer your question.
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I have not really given it any serious thoughts until recently. But frankly, how do you distinguish between poetry and prose? Take the following piece for example,
When lives are at stake,
would you risk
not reporting it?
If you see anything
or anyone suspicious,
inform our staff
or call 999.
And donÂ’t leave
your belongings unattended.
We all have a part to play
in keeping Singapore
Safe.
Do you consider it a poem? It is actually a copy of the notice put up at various MRT stations to remind commuters to stay alert. I chopped it up and arranged it to look like a poem. Okay, okay, this is not really a good example.
But what about this?
And then comes Spring.
The sun is bright,
the water sparkles,
and the lobsters are active again,
swimming about, eating
like kings, and vying
for a place in your
Butter-browned top-sliced
frankfurter bun.
Would you categorize it as poetry? Better than the previous one right? In fact it is a passage taken from one of the articles in “It must’ve been something I ate” by Jeffrey Steingarten. Again, I’ve chopped it up and try to pass it off as a poem.
Basically, there are two things I look out for in a piece of writing before I decide whether it is a poetry or prose. Firstly is the existence of poetic devices such as meter, rhyme, imagery, metaphor, compression, etc. Secondly is its overall effect on me. I need to be delighted, to be surprised, and if you could stun me with it, the better; I will not hesitate to give you an A Plus.
To quote Emily Dicknson,
“If I read a book [and] it makes my whole body so cold no fire ever can warm me I know that is poetry. If I feel physically as if the top of my head were taken off, I know that is poetry. These are the only way[s] I know it. Is there any other way?”
To illustrate the second point, two poems immediately come into my mind. Coincidentally both are very short poems. One is a haiku by Taniguchi Buson -
The piercing chill I feel:
my dead wife's comb, in our bedroom,
under my heel . . .
And the other poem is Accident by Gilbert Koh, a local poet I greatly respect.
He once told me,
“A poem has to show me something that I wasn't aware of; or it has to show me something that I was aware of, but in a way I'd never thought of before. If I don't discover anything new in a poem, then it doesn't work for me. It's not a poem to me.”
I have no problem with that. But what if instead of a poem, it is a prose that “show me something that I wasn't aware of; or it has to show me something that I was aware of, but in a way I'd never thought of before. If I don't discover anything new …” can I still consider it a poem? In fact many articles written by Mr Wang in his blog "Did Mister Wang Say So?" meet the above requirements, but they are definitely not poetry.
Maybe as suggested by Gilbert,
“And if it is a good piece, does it really matter whether it is more correctly classified as prose or poetry?”
Well sorry Gilbert, but it does matters to me because I am the stubborn type.
Although the boundary between poetry and prose remind obscure but there is still hope; as Joan Houlihan in her reply to Fred Moramarco said
“While I agree that it is basically impossible to successfully and fully define a poem, I maintain that it is possible to define a non-poem – by its lack of poetic conventions.”
In my opinion, if you write a prose using poetic devices, if you insist, you can call it a prose poem. On the other hand, if you write a poem in the manners as if you are writing a prose, it will remain a prose, nothing but a prose. -
tks Liz, its very relevant to what i wanted to know, so now i know form is not everything for haiku to work.Originally posted by Bluesky_Liz:I found this haiku site. It has some very interesting articles about Haiku and its related forms.
http://www.ahapoetry.com/haiku.htm -
I guess for your case, it depends on how familiar the reader is with Vietnam war?? When I read it, I got the idea of Vietcong scurrying here and there through their massive network of underground tunnels... but i guess if a reader doesn't know you're referring to the Vietnam war, then it's kinda tough putting it in context?Originally posted by dsnake1:Oops! so the tanka didn't work too well!
peebrain, it's all right, i welcome the feedback.
Maybe those who read on wars may see the allusions more clearly. Chu Chi is a place in the former South Vietnam famous for its tunnels dug by the guerrilla armies fighting against the Americans in the Vietnam War. The rats allude to the Vietcong hiding in those tunnel complexes. Metal locusts refer to american air power. The VC are like ghosts because they are very elusive. At one time Chu Chi was one of the most bombed areas on earth.
Hope this little history lesson helps in the imaging.
>>I have also the world's most logical mind. heheh, i like that. -
But if the poem is interesting enough, readers will want to find out more.Originally posted by KittynMeow:I guess for your case, it depends on how familiar the reader is with Vietnam war?? When I read it, I got the idea of Vietcong scurrying here and there through their massive network of underground tunnels... but i guess if a reader doesn't know you're referring to the Vietnam war, then it's kinda tough putting it in context? -
When I read this I knew you were writing about Vietnam (thank god I passed history, and the napalm reference is telling), but I can't enage in the poem because something about the images, the placement of words didn't quite fit, which was why I left such a comment.Originally posted by dsnake1:Oops! so the tanka didn't work too well!
peebrain, it's all right, i welcome the feedback.
Maybe those who read on wars may see the allusions more clearly. Chu Chi is a place in the former South Vietnam famous for its tunnels dug by the guerrilla armies fighting against the Americans in the Vietnam War. The rats allude to the Vietcong hiding in those tunnel complexes. Metal locusts refer to american air power. The VC are like ghosts because they are very elusive. At one time Chu Chi was one of the most bombed areas on earth.
Hope this little history lesson helps in the imaging.
>>I have also the world's most logical mind. heheh, i like that.
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It is the sudden change in perceptions and images that I am uncomfortable with i.e. from rats to human and from metal locusts to bombers. The only line linking the two is “in the warm blue sky” which in my opinion failed to serve its purpose.
Just a thought. -
no problem, peebrain! this shows more practice is requiredOriginally posted by peebrain:When I read this I knew you were writing about Vietnam (thank god I passed history, and the napalm reference is telling), but I can't enage in the poem because something about the images, the placement of words didn't quite fit, which was why I left such a comment.