Poetry - Proper writing styles and formats...
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I've noticed that there're quite a few 'styles' / format(?) for writing a proper poem... Must we follow such styles to make our poems acceptable and meaningful..? Would we be like writing without even knowing what we're writing if we don't...?
I also remember DP telling me before that my poems are too abstract... I somehow agree with him on that, but I certainly like my poems to be more abstract than otherwise.. Is it a bad thing?
Because I'm actually kinda lazy if not at times stubborn.. But I do really wish to know if there're so much more to poetry-writing..? And if they're really necessary to make poems meaningful...?
Thanks in advance for any constructive comments... -
My dear friend,
I will try to post some articles regarding your questions if I can find the time. Actually I have already done that in the past but I have not kept them updated.
For a start I strongly recommend you to read the following three books, especially The PoetÂ’s Companion because it is really helpful for beginners like us. (DonÂ’t be lazy okay)
And if you are into serious reading Best Words, Best Order is a good buy. You can find the first edition in the library but you need to order the second edition from US.
1) Western Wind, An Introduction to Poetry, Fourth Edition, by John Frederick Nims & David Mason
2) The PoetÂ’s Companion, A Guide to the Pleasures of Writing Poetry by Kim Addonizio & Dorianne Laux
3) Best Words, Best Order, Essays on Poetry, Second Edition, by Stephen Dobyns
But first let me briefly answer your questions,
Must we follow such styles to make our poems acceptable and meaningful..?
No. But if you are writing a sonnet, then of course you have to follow the structure of a sonnet. (By the way there are few kind of sonnets) Occasionally established poets do experiment with writing sonnets in different styles and successfully pulled it off.
In my opinion, your poem needs to mean something to you. (If not, you shouldnÂ’t even write it in the first place) Then, your task, as a poet is to fine-tune it so that it will mean something to your readers. Ideally, both your readers and you should have the same interpretation, but again, that is not always true because we have to take your readersÂ’ background into consideration for example their personal experiences, cultures, educational level, etc.
That is also one of the reasons why some poets such as William Wordsworth, Sharon Olds, and Gilbert Koh prefer not to use words that are too difficult. (You don't need a degree to understand their poems) Instead, they focus on other poetry-writing tools such as image, sounds, tone, etc.
Would we be like writing without even knowing what we're writing if we don't...?
I am not sure what you meant by this question. Are you referring to flow-writing? Unless you are in a trance you should know what you are writing right? Having say that most poets started off with an image, a phrase, etc without knowing how the poem will end. That is the exciting part. Are you referring to that?
I also remember DP telling me before that my poems are too abstract... I somehow agree with him on that, but I certainly like my poems to be more abstract than otherwise.. Is it a bad thing?
No. It is not 100% a bad thing. The trick is to have a good balance between abstract terms and concrete images. The main problem with abstracts is they do not involve your senses. You canÂ’t touch, smell, hear, etc. them. Too many of them and youÂ’ll have a boring piece. Same with concrete images, too many of them in a poem (especially the long one) and your brain will be overload.
(And you are right, your poems are too abstract. But if you are happy with them who care what other think right? It is your poems.)
But I do really wish to know if there're so much more to poetry-writing..?
More than you can imagine my friend. Check out those books.
And if they're really necessary to make poems meaningful...?
Refer to my earlier answer.
LetÂ’s put it this way. Before you start writing, you need to ask yourself these two questions
1) What do you want to achieve with your poems?
2) Who are your readers?
With them in mind, you decide your path.
Thanks in advance for any constructive comments...
You are most welcome.
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Any comments from other poets? LetÂ’s have a sharing session.
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Well... I've been known to write a couple of sonnets and villanelles when I want to give my poems a little structure or discipline.
Think of forms as a base to set the tone of the poem. For instance, sonnets tend to lend an old fogey sheen to the piece, and hence gives the poem more weight. And if you write in strict iambic pentameter and rhyme schemes, you'll realize that although it's much harder to write, the payoff is infinitely more rewarding.
I like free verse -- but I think it's very prone to abuse. And because there's no rules to it, people tend to forget to apply common literary techniques in their writing -- simple things like repetition, alliteration, allusion and metaphor are poetic tools that should be used in any form of poetry.
Personally, for anyone to call themselves a poet, they must have a working knowledge of the most common forms -- Sonnet, tercets, haiku, villanelle -- even though they do not have to specialize in any.
This is what differentiates a poet from someone who throws words around.
I don't prescribe reading "how-to" books, really. Instead, just read more poetry from the various ages.
For older poems, read Donne, Shakespeare, Bacon, Byron and Dickinson for a feel of what sonnets and tercets are like.
For more contemporary poems, Yeats, Hughes, Sexton, Plath, cummings, Riche, Dylan are pretty good.
Carol Joyce Oats, Sophie Hannah, Ted Kooser, Sharon Olds are poets that gives traditional forms the modern treatment.l -
Originally posted by DeadPoet:
Hi DP,
I am not sure what you meant by this question. Are you referring to free flow writing? Unless you are in a trance you should know what you are writing right? Having say that most poets started off with an image, a phrase, etc without knowing how the poem will end. That is the exciting part. Are you referring to that?
[/b]
very insightful advise...but i'm having a problem with the situation you're describing above i.e. how poems starts off with an image and the poet not knowing how it'll end. This is basically how i write too..and while its true that its exciting, i find it to be a double edged sword as well becos the message behind the poem may run off course - becos there is no "set" structure for how the message should run. I'm not sure now if its good practise to write down what i want to say in the 1st stanza, 2nd ..and so forth - to ensure that the message will be tighter. Again, i wonder if by doing this, the creative process will become stilted and constrained by the form. Well, this is typical me - conflicted as usual.
would like to hear yr
or anyone else's advise on this...tks.. -
i'm having a problem with the situation you're describing above i.e. how poems starts off with an image and the poet not knowing how it'll end. This is basically how i write too..and while its true that its exciting, i find it to be a double edged sword as well becos the message behind the poem may run off course - becos there is no "set" structure for how the message should run.
I know this may sound silly but if it runs off course, let it runs, let it lead the way. You can always come back to it later. Do not force the message into your poem. Let the poem decides your message. In my opinion, if the end product is not your original message, you are not ready to tackle it yet.
I'm not sure now if its good practise to write down what i want to say in the 1st stanza, 2nd ..and so forth - to ensure that the message will be tighter.
ThatÂ’s entirely up to you my friend. If you are comfortable with writing down what you want to say and allocate them according to different stanzas, so be it. But it doesnÂ’t work for me, most of the time I donÂ’t even know how many stanzas my poem will have.
I am not too sure what you meant by “to ensure that the message will be tighter.” Do you mean the poem will be tighter?
Again, i wonder if by doing this, the creative process will become stilted and constrained by the form.
I think peebrain has answered your question regarding this. -
To write poetry, i think one must not forget the roots.
By this i am refering to the traditional forms of poetry : the sonnet, ballad, haiku etc. These forms are structured, they have a certain number of lines and rhyme schemes.
Why write traditional poetry? Because it is still relevant today, it builds discipline into your writing, it will improve your craft.
Contemporary poetry is often associated with free verse. People believe you can do anything with free verse. Which is true to an extent because it allows you to do nearly anything with the language. But there are still rules in free verse ( i like to call it open form poetry). You don't restrict the lines, or shape . You may not notice it, but if you write in free verse, you start to impose rules on your poem and yourself.
The trick to writing good poetry is to read good poetry. Read the traditional poets and the comtemporary ones. The selection by peebrain is very good.
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Originally posted by expiringpoet:
Expiringpoet,
becos there is no "set" structure for how the message should run. I'm not sure now if its good practise to write down what i want to say in the 1st stanza, 2nd ..and so forth - to ensure that the message will be tighter. Again, i wonder if by doing this, the creative process will become stilted and constrained by the form. Well, this is typical me - conflicted as usual.
would like to hear yr or anyone else's advise on this...tks.. [/b]
You have raised very pertinent questions that I must try to addresss to the best of my ability.
Creativity is not about letting loose the wild horses -- but how you rein them in to do your bidding.
Deadpoet and Dsnake mentioned how common it is for a poet to write about a specific image in mind, and not knowing how the rest of the poem will take shape.
I beg to differ.
It is true that a lot of my poems have their origins in a specific idea in mind -- say, writer's block or solitude or existential angst -- and it usually starts with one verse, for instance, "In dreaming I take my waking slow"
This verse is the start of the poet's examination of the human condition. From there, I think of how to link this insular line to a greater whole of sorts -- how to give the poem meaning using this verse as a trigger.
I could use the line, "In dreaming I take my waking slow" to illuminate the attractions of dreaming -- how the fantastical world could be more spiritually illuminating than our harsh reality.
As for traditional forms: they do not stifle creativity -- instead they force you to break your thoughts into coherent slices, to be assembled and appreciated by the reader.
And as a modern poet, part of the challenge is to use these traditional devices as creatively as you can, within the boundaries of structure and reason.
I've written a villanelle to explain what I mean.
When I wrote this poem, I had only one image -- of two opposing worlds, one in dreaming, and one in waking.
In Dreams We Break (A Villanelle)
In dreams we break, and are torn asunder,
shunned while velvet nights shudder and rage,
so we wake to escape, our spirits bolder.
Cahiers, written by a nameless author,
though modest, defile with each stained page,
in dreams we break, and are torn asunder.
Exuent a fear impossible to master,
a dark light prances and torments the stage,
while we wake to escape, our spirits older.
Cursed is this contract, to place an actor
confessing her lines, even moved to persuade
as we dream and break, and are torn asunder.
A minstrel sings of Tristan and Isolde,
lovers crossed and doomed by curious fate,
unlike them we wake and escape, our spirits lighter.
Jostled 'tween two worlds, yet courage is steered
by checks and balances, a bittersweet adage:
although in dreams we break, and are torn asunder,
we shall wake to escape, our spirits bolder.
That's how a villanelle is usually constructed -- you start with a couplet ("In dreams we break, and are torn asunder/ So we wake to escape, our spirits bolder") and then insert a tertiary line to form a tercet.
Each line of the couplet is repeated in an alternating fashion, and the challenge lies in the poet's ability to use fitting rhymes and images to SUPPORT the precis of the poem.
That's why I've stuck to imagery associated with Theater and history -- actors, Tristan and Isolde,... etc. In order to tie in with the beauty of fiction inherent in dreaming. It's tempting to cook up rubbish rhymes so as to get the stanza over and done with -- but that's hardly the point of writing poetry.
I've also deviated from the standard villanelle -- I didn't stick strictly to the repetition of couplet -- along the way, I made slight changes to the couplet to reinforce my message.
Which is why the poem begins with:In dreams we wake and are torn asunder,
and ends up like this:
So we wake to escape our spirits bolder,although in dreams we break, and are torn asunder,
You'll see that Sylvia Plath, Elizabeth Bishop, Dyland and Sophie Hannah make creative adjustments to traditional forms. Use them to your advantage -- they're your tools!
we shall wake to escape, our spirits bolder.
Also, bear in mind I had no idea how I was going to finish the poem, or even come up with three other stanzas. But this is where creativity will come to save you, and discipline will force you to reexamine your writing, and make every word count. -
Originally posted by DeadPoet:
My dear friend,
I will try to post some articles regarding your questions if I can find the time. Actually I have already done that in the past but I have not kept them updated.
For a start I strongly recommend you to read the following three books, especially The PoetÂ’s Companion because it is really helpful for beginners like us. (DonÂ’t be lazy okay)
How you know I'm the lazy type already...??
And if you are into serious reading Best Words, Best Order is a good buy. You can find the first edition in the library but you need to order the second edition from US.
1) Western Wind, An Introduction to Poetry, Fourth Edition, by John Frederick Nims & David Mason
2) The PoetÂ’s Companion, A Guide to the Pleasures of Writing Poetry by Kim Addonizio & Dorianne Laux
3) Best Words, Best Order, Essays on Poetry, Second Edition, by Stephen Dobyns
Wah... So many books... Sometimes it's not just that I'm lazy lah... I've really got too many 'commitments' strangling my poor life... "
But first let me briefly answer your questions,
Would we be like writing without even knowing what we're writing if we don't...?
I am not sure what you meant by this question. Are you referring to flow-writing? Unless you are in a trance you should know what you are writing right? Having say that most poets started off with an image, a phrase, etc without knowing how the poem will end. That is the exciting part. Are you referring to that?
What I meant was... Could we be just uttering some rubbish, thinking that it's a poem when it's actually not..
I also remember DP telling me before that my poems are too abstract... I somehow agree with him on that, but I certainly like my poems to be more abstract than otherwise.. Is it a bad thing?
No. It is not 100% a bad thing. The trick is to have a good balance between abstract terms and concrete images. The main problem with abstracts is they do not involve your senses. You canÂ’t touch, smell, hear, etc. them. Too many of them and youÂ’ll have a boring piece. Same with concrete images, too many of them in a poem (especially the long one) and your brain will be overload.
(And you are right, your poems are too abstract. But if you are happy with them who care what other think right? It is your poems.)
YEAH. WHAT CARES WHAT THEY THINK SO LONG AS I'M HAPPY??
But the deal really is that I do wish at least what I'm writing are poems...?
LetÂ’s put it this way. Before you start writing, you need to ask yourself these two questions
1) What do you want to achieve with your poems?
2) Who are your readers?
With them in mind, you decide your path.
1. I often wish to stimulate and provoke some thinkings in people who can understand what I'm writing about...
2. My readers are those who can understand what I'm saying. I often do not wish to clearly deliver and 'mouth-feed' the readers as typical of most poems... I like to provoke thoughts.. And make them think hard to look out for the understandings of hidden meanings... Sometimes when it's about just pure 'release' of my own feelings and burst of thoughts, I also try to make them masked... -
Sounds like me...??Originally posted by peebrain:This is what differentiates a poet from someone who throws words around. -
I'm one who is quite particular about the allowance of creative flow...Originally posted by expiringpoet:Hi DP,
very insightful advise...but i'm having a problem with the situation you're describing above i.e. how poems starts off with an image and the poet not knowing how it'll end. This is basically how i write too..and while its true that its exciting, i find it to be a double edged sword as well becos the message behind the poem may run off course - becos there is no "set" structure for how the message should run. I'm not sure now if its good practise to write down what i want to say in the 1st stanza, 2nd ..and so forth - to ensure that the message will be tighter. Again, i wonder if by doing this, the creative process will become stilted and constrained by the form. Well, this is typical me - conflicted as usual.
would like to hear yr or anyone else's advise on this...tks.. -
It was all quite INFORMATIVE!!! THANKS PEOPLE!!
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You are the one who told me what,Originally posted by Devil1976:How you know I'm the lazy type already...??
"Because I'm actually kinda lazy if not at times stubborn.. " -
You are must welcome!Originally posted by Devil1976:It was all quite INFORMATIVE!!! THANKS PEOPLE!!
Must give me a treat during our next kopi session okay? -
She is just making a general statement lah.Originally posted by Devil1976:Sounds like me...??
Are you trying to get her attention? -
Well you have to start somewhere.Originally posted by Devil1976:[Wah... So many books... Sometimes it's not just that I'm lazy lah... I've really got too many 'commitments' strangling my poor life... "
Admit it! You are lazy! -
Most of the time, including me.Originally posted by Devil1976:What I meant was... Could we be just uttering some rubbish, thinking that it's a poem when it's actually not..
Okay you need to ask yourself, in your opinion, what constitute a poem? -
Are you ready to commit yourself?Originally posted by Devil1976:But the deal really is that I do wish at least what I'm writing are poems...?
If you are, let me know and I will tell you what to do. -
1. That's good. But are you sure you've achieved it?Originally posted by Devil1976:1. I often wish to stimulate and provoke some thinkings in people who can understand what I'm writing about...
2. My readers are those who can understand what I'm saying. I often do not wish to clearly deliver and 'mouth-feed' the readers as typical of most poems... I like to provoke thoughts.. And make them think hard to look out for the understandings of hidden meanings... Sometimes when it's about just pure 'release' of my own feelings and burst of thoughts, I also try to make them masked...
2. That's good too. But ask youself what have you done to your poem in order to achieve that i.e. "provoke thoughts.. And make them think hard to look out for the understandings of hidden meanings"? -
In response to, "This is what differentiates a poet from someone who throws words around", you said:
I've always believed that if a general remark is personally felt, then it probably isn't too far from the truth.Originally posted by Devil1976:Sounds like me...??
Think about it.
And think about whether the things you write contain the various elements:
1. Structure
2. Semantics
3. Sound, meter and rhyme
4. Imagery
5. Literary allusions (metaphors, similes etc)
6. Comparisons
7. Rhetoric
8. And many more.
You don't have to purposely include these elements in your writing, but if you're an instinctive poet, these elements will be present in the poem in one form or the other.
And someone who's adept at scansion will pick them out -- this is what differentiates a poem from a bunch of words rudely cobbled together.
This is the reason why poetry is an art form, and not merely a pass-time.
And please, don't write off something as "cheem" simply because the writing is structured in a way different from your natural speech. It smacks of condescension, truth be said. -
To add on peebrainÂ’s comment,
I agree with her that for a poem to work or to be called a poem at all you need to include in your writing some of the elements mentioned above. However for beginners like me, for a start, you can choose to focus on a couple of them such as imagery and metaphors. As you progress, feel free to explore the other areas.
Regarding scansion, it is not an easy technique to master and IMO the toughest of all. Again my suggestion is go ahead and read about scansion but for the time being put it aside first. Start with the basic stuff like line breaks, imagery, etc. Get used to them; keep practicing till theyÂ’ve became part of your writing style. And when you think you are ready, proceed to the next level.
And slightly different view from peebrain, I think poetry is both an art form and a pass-time, they co-exist. -
waaah, sound so serious...like marriage proposal! kekeke!!!Originally posted by DeadPoet:Are you ready to commit yourself?
If you are, let me know and I will tell you what to do. -
I guess sometimes when singaporeans say this, it means that we dont understand the meaning behind the words, esp if the words are not in our standard lexicon. Must admit, i'm sometimes guilty of this tooOriginally posted by peebrain:And please, don't write off something as "cheem" simply because the writing is structured in a way different from your natural speech. It smacks of condescension, truth be said.
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DP, dsnake, PB- you guys are a source of enlightenment lah. thank u...
peebrain - i understand what you're saying on the form and structure...am inspired by ur words about how the structure and form elavates the written word. I'm also trying to understand how one can detract from the standard form and still be said to be following the structure. Example i have is the haiku, which is supposed to be 17 syllables (?) and in stanzas of 5,7,5, if i remember correctly. But i also noticed that writers take liberties with the form, so is it still considered a haiku?
Again, when i think about the form, i get super stressed! Anyway, tks for yr advise.
DP - tks for yr encouragement dude. I always assured after i read yr comments. And i think its true that it should be a gradual thing, mastery of poetry. Sometimes i have the same concern as devil even when i'm writing free verse - that is, would people think what i'm writing is poetry or is it pure rubbish? i guess writing free verse always seems to be the easy way out for me. But on a deeper level, i tend to think also that as long as the words are heart-felt and beatiful, no matter the structure - that's poetry in its simplest form. -
What an insightful discussion! Sorry I've been just lurking.
In any art form, if you want to improve and perfect your craft, it certainly takes work. Just like anyone can dance or sing for fun or only among friends, but if you really want to go out there and put it in front of people, then you have to practice and improve, and try new things to see what works. IMHO.
I haven't been able to write anything in form, I'm just starting to learn how to scan. But I'm just terribly slow. Then, someday I'm gonna try writing in form. I think poetry in form is incredibly elegant and beautiful, if done well.
I'll just add my 2c's with regards to poetry instruction books -- they might not teach you all there is about writing poetry; they are certainly not school english text books, but they will give you some things to think about and suggest ways to improve, and help you to learn how to appreciate poetry of all flavors and the tools used in writing one.
Thanks for sharing your thoughts, everyone. 