Appealing against warning letter
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Originally posted by IxusNeedHelp:The story is like this,I know this girl for 6 months, we enter a quarrel and there was once i send her an SMS, whether she is interested in going to the hotel to have sex with me just to irritate her. as she previously insulted me.She filed a police report, the Investigating officer ask if I have sms her and I admitted but i explain to him I have no intention to insult her and just want to irritate her because of our quarrel.There after i apologies to her and she agree to put this behind us. I have also inform the Investigating officer subsequently.The investigating officer inform me that the AGC decides to give me a letter of warning.I am hoping to appeal for the following reasons:1) She and me are just quarreling .2) It was a one time SMS and I have not cause her any distress or alarm.3) I have never been to her place to cause her harm or any distress, ever since our quarrel we never meet(Previously we have gone out a lot of time for movie, coffee and etc)4) according to the statue, it seems that both the party has to be physically at the locationReference: http://statutes.agc.gov.sg/Line:13B. —(1) Any person who in a public place or in a private plac(b) that he was inside a dwelling-house and had no reason to believe that the words or behaviour used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation displayed, would be heard or seen by a person outside that dwelling-house or any other dwelling-house;I can prove at the point of sending that sms, I was never with her physically nor have I went up to her place to harass her before. It was an one time SMS.
5) I also believe that my conduct was reasonable as she has said some nasty thing to me too.6) I have no previous record and I feel remorse.Could someone provide me some advise in drafting this appeal, this is my first time involve in a police case. I am not familiar with the police procedure.My previous unofficial appeal via E-mail was rejected by the AGC and they have not provided me reason.Can someone here please kindly give me professional advise on how to draft this appeal letter?
Thank You.
my stand is to leave it.
It is just a warning letter, as part of the administration process. Leave it and leave the girl alone.
The fact is that it is reflect on the her handphone that you have sexually harassed her. It does not matter whether it is a joke or not. The evidence is there, written in Black and White on the hp. And there is no evidence on your side to prove that it is for fun or joke.
Whatever you say, whatever you do, it is just to make things worse so LEAVE IT.
I think you have crossed the line and you should send her an official letter of apology.
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look the law discriminates against males in this respect.Nothing much you can do about it.
you're getting off with almost nothing. The warning is really nothing. Just check with the police officer to find out more about what the warning means and the consequences
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As far as I know, a letter of warning is just that - a warning. It is by no means a conviction in a court of law, and as such it should not bear any consequence for future employment.
However, it may be taken into account should you commit a similar action in the future either against that woman, or any other woman for that matter, and get charged in the process.
All I have to say is to just shut up and lay low and to be grateful that you were not dragged to court. If you draft an appeal letter, for all you know the Attorney-General's Chambers may just change its mind and file charges against you.
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Originally posted by IxusNeedHelp:
Can someone here please kindly give me professional advise on how to draft this appeal letter?
Thank You.
Why dont you just pay some extra money which you say you have, and consult a nice lawyer to draft you whatever letter?I believe, a retainer of $2k should garantee you the time of such so called lawyer to draft you such a letter, to the lady that you offended, and to the police officers and to the AGC in this matter.
Otherwise.....you are just going to make a further laughing joke of yourself.
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Maybe TS will go approach his MP. lol
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1) Claims by accused
I know this girl for 6 months, we enter a quarrel and there was once i send her an SMS, whether she is interested in going to the hotel to have sex with me just to irritate her. as she previously insulted me.
at the point of sending that sms, I was never with her physically nor have I went up to her place to harass her before. It was an one time SMS.
I have no previous record and I feel remorse.
2) Classification
13A. —(1) Any person who in a public place or in a private place, with intent to cause harassment, alarm or distress to another person —
(a) uses threatening, abusive or insulting words or behaviour; or
(b) displays any writing, sign or other visible representation which is threatening, abusive or insulting,
thereby causing that person or any other person harassment, alarm or distress, shall be guilty of an offence and shall be liable on conviction to a fine not exceeding $5,000.(2) It is a defence for the accused to prove —
(a) that he was inside a dwelling-house and had no reason to believe that the words or behaviour used, or the writing, sign or other visible representation displayed, by him would be heard or seen by a person outside that dwelling-house or any other dwelling-house; or
(b) that his conduct was reasonable.3) My interpretation
The claims that both parties were in a quarrel (appeal 1) and the victim previously insulted you (appeal 5) do not come under any of the general exceptions for Penal Code, nor exists any special exceptions for section 13A of the Misc Offences Act. Hence, they only serves as a mitigating factor (together with appeal 6) and not complete defence.
(i) Mens Rea: intent to cause harrassment (threaten/disturb/annoy), alarm or distress (suffer)
Even if the victim did not take your SMS seriously nor felt threatened/disturbed/alarmed/suffered, the act still falls under the purview of this section if she was annoyed by the message. You surely knew that such lewd message can cause annoyance to a reasonable person, and intention can be infered if there was knowledge that an act will likely result in a particular effect.
(ii) Actus Rea: displays any writing which is abusive or insulting, thereby causing that person harassment
The word “writing” includes any mode of representing or reproducing words, figures, drawings or symbols in a visible form.
The act still falls under the "harrassment" keyword (appeal 2, 3). Whether your SMS amounts to "abusive or insulting words" is a question of facts, which the judge will provide interpretation based on the facts and evidence presented.
(iii) Defence: inside a dwelling-house and had no reason to believe that the writing displayed by him would be seen by a person outside that dwelling-house
It is obvious that you believed that the SMS would be seen by the victim outside the place of commission. Based on your reasoning (appeal 4), it appears that you misinterpreted this provision.
(iv) Defence: that his conduct was reasonable
This provision is a question of facts. It is the onus of the accused to present evidence to proof reasonability, which is rather difficult even to attain a required balance of probability.
4) My advice
This offence is non-seizable. Hence, the victim had lodged a magistrate report to seek proceedings. If the victim took all the troubles of this lengthy process, she was obviously substantially annoyed with your act.
The AG gave you a warning instead of proceeding with a charge, and there is no appeal procedure nor conviction records for this. You may refuse to accept the warning in writing to the AGC, and the AG may respond by pressing charge or simply file for reference.
In summary, you may have committed an offence due to presence of both mens rea and actus rea, subjected to the question of facts. It is up to you to weigh your possible courses of actions with this information.
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Originally posted by keeptouch:
Maybe TS will go approach his MP. lol
I will consider that.
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Originally posted by IxusNeedHelp:
I will consider that.
Like others have said..... just shut up, lay low and be thankful that no charges have been filed against you.
This is not a case of you being innocent and unjustly accused of a crime. Like it or not, what you did was wrong, period. You are an insult to us men for sending that SMS.
Actually, I kinda hope that you will blow this matter up. Then the Attorney-General's Chambers might just change its mind and charge you and make you regret your current actions.
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Just what did she say that made you respond with that sms?
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Originally posted by fudgester:
Like others have said..... just shut up, lay low and be thankful that no charges have been filed against you.
This is not a case of you being innocent and unjustly accused of a crime. Like it or not, what you did was wrong, period. You are an insult to us men for sending that SMS.
Actually, I kinda hope that you will blow this matter up. Then the Attorney-General's Chambers might just change its mind and charge you and make you regret your current actions.
Well lets take this example, Could I file a complain against him for intentional harassment because he clearly annoyed me by hoping something negative will happen to me. So now imagine this complain was successfully filed and you receive a warning for intentional harassment just because you directed a message at me on the public forum(worst than personal messages) How would you feel? Doesn't feel good right and don't you feel is too much but the law is the law? I hope that would give you an idea of how i felt.There are also some others that say nasty thing to me here, but do I go file complain against all of them? I understand you guys are just giving your comments or whatsoever justification. Like I say both her and me is having an quarrel and in quarrels the kind of words being exchange are usually nasty.
About what she did... well All I can say is I spend a lot of time and effort and tolerating her nonsense while we are friends, that lead me to say such a thing. but that is the past and I have apologies to her for the SMS.
Back to the topic: Could someone here please teach me how to draft a successful appeal letter? Thank you, your help would be greatly appreciated.
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Originally posted by IxusNeedHelp:
Well lets take this example, Could I file a complain against him for intentional harassment because he clearly annoyed me by hoping something negative will happen to me. So now imagine this complain was successfully filed and you receive a warning for intentional harassment just because you directed a message at me on the public forum(worst than personal messages) How would you feel? Doesn't feel good right and don't you feel is too much but the law is the law? I hope that would give you an idea of how i felt.There are also some others that say nasty thing to me here, but do I go file complain against all of them? I understand you guys are just giving your comments or whatsoever justification. Like I say both her and me is having an quarrel and in quarrels the kind of words being exchange are usually nasty.
About what she did... well All I can say is I spend a lot of time and effort and tolerating her nonsense while we are friends, that lead me to say such a thing. but that is the past and I have apologies to her for the SMS.
And you think your nonsense with the have sex thing, is much more lighter in view of how she had commented that she wish you harm for what you deserved?Or she was just mean and wish you harm because you did not say anything or did anything stupid then before you send her that sms?
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Originally posted by IxusNeedHelp:
Back to the topic: Could someone here please teach me how to draft a successful appeal letter? Thank you, your help would be greatly appreciated.
Go pay your lawyer and stop being such a cheapskate here requesting for people to teach you to draft a successful appeal letter, which is seriously insulting to all those people here on the forum with a better sense then you do. -
Originally posted by viciouskitty74:
And you think your nonsense with the have sex thing, is much more lighter in view of how she had commented that she wish you harm for what you deserved?Or she was just mean and wish you harm because you did not say anything or did anything stupid then before you send her that sms?
Like I say a quarrel is a quarrel.. is very hard to justify who is right who is wrong and the same goes for human emotion, what I felt might not be what she felt... For example one day Brother A flare up at Brother B at the kitchen table because ate too loud, of course brother B feel unfair but there it could be because this morning Brother B was hugging on to the toilet too long and Brother A was late for an appointment. In scenario we can see that both party at fault and hard to justify who is right and wrong. -
Originally posted by IxusNeedHelp:
Like I say a quarrel is a quarrel.. is very hard to justify who is right who is wrong and the same goes for human emotion, what I felt might not be what she felt... For example one day Brother A flare up at Brother B at the kitchen table because ate too loud, of course brother B feel unfair but there it could be because this morning Brother B was hugging on to the toilet too long and Brother A was late for an appointment. In scenario we can see that both party at fault and hard to justify who is right and wrong.
Fine.Whatever you wish to suggest you do not have intention to do or already apologised for, but have no remorse for.
Fine.
Now will you put your whatever money that you have, which you claim you have. And go contact a lawyer to speak to you and you pay him for the consultation to speak to him about drafting your so called appeal letters and stop trying to suggest you were provoked into doing what you did, even though you apologised to her, when actual fact, your apology was made under duress because you feared legal trouble which you have not one bit of common sense to understand and deal with, and you actually felt that you were provoked into responding to her that way, even though you apologised but you do not mean it. And that you want to send a appeal letter to AGC to dispute the warning and its content which was 'incorrectly' describing your intent to her.
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Originally posted by viciouskitty74:
Fine.Whatever you wish to suggest you do not have intention to do or already apologised for, but have no remorse for.
Fine.
Now will you put your whatever money that you have, which you claim you have. And go contact a lawyer to speak to you and you pay him for the consultation to speak to him about drafting your so called appeal letters and stop trying to suggest you were provoked into doing what you did, even though you apologised to her, when actual fact, your apology was made under duress because you feared legal trouble which you have not one bit of common sense to understand and deal with, and you actually felt that you were provoked into responding to her that way, even though you apologised but you do not mean it. And that you want to send a appeal letter to AGC to dispute the warning and its content which was 'incorrectly' describing your intent to her.
Firstly I am not saying I am very rich, clearly in that particular message.
I clearly defending her that she is not a person that wants money out of this incident. If she ask for money, I would have gone to the police for threats.
But I refuse to say that out because I feel is revengeful, so I aid if she wants money I won't have a problem but it seems you have taken it another way. I apologies for that.
I am very sincere with my apology, at this moment I am trying to write a nice Christmas Greeting for her.
But I can't conceal my feeling that I am upset with the entire situation that I felt was slightly blown out of proportion. Would you guys say is alright to feel angry but at the end of the day we have to be reasonable and understand our actions and make the right decision and admit we are wrong.
I am merely trying to seek help for drafting this appeal letter, hoping to have my warning withdrawn not by discrediting her or saying I am right but with reasoning that maybe this issue could be made smaller and I have paid my price.
viciouskitty74: You have express your opinion a few times, I have hear you. thanks for your comments.
Sorry can't seems to use the multi quote properly.
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Originally posted by IxusNeedHelp:
If she ask for money, I don't have problem -.-
Since you assumed that you dont have problem giving her money.Its a problem for you to approach a lawyer and give him/her money to solve your current problem?
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Originally posted by IxusNeedHelp:
Firstly I am not saying I am very rich, clearly in that particular message.
I clearly defending her that she is not a person that wants money out of this incident. If she ask for money, I would have gone to the police for threats.
But I refuse to say that out because I feel is revengeful, so I aid if she wants money I won't have a problem but it seems you have taken it another way. I apologies for that.
I am very sincere with my apology, at this moment I am trying to write a nice Christmas Greeting for her.
But I can't conceal my feeling that I am upset with the entire situation that I felt was slightly blown out of proportion. Would you guys say is alright to feel angry but at the end of the day we have to be reasonable and understand our actions and make the right decision and admit we are wrong.
I am merely trying to seek help for drafting this appeal letter, hoping to have my warning withdrawn not by discrediting her or saying I am right but with reasoning that maybe this issue could be made smaller and I have paid my price.
viciouskitty74: You have express your opinion a few times, I have hear you. thanks for your comments.
And you have expressed a few times, that you were provoked into sending that sms to suggest that she should have sex with you.
I guess I should now point out. That if she or the court demanded that you give her money including a apology for what you sms-sed her for.
You have no grounds to accuse her of threats.
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Originally posted by viciouskitty74:
And you have expressed a few times, that you were provoked into sending that sms to suggest that she should have sex with you.
I guess I should now point out. That if she or the court demanded that you give her money including a apology for what you sms-sed her for.
You have no grounds to accuse her of threats.
If she actually does that and is successful, I would have no choice but to pay.
and I was replying to someone's message that all she want was money, that person didn't say it was via Civil means.
<blockquote> <div class="quote_from">Originally posted by MaNyZeR:</div> <div class="quote_body"> <p>2 mistakes u made here...</p> <p>first, guys are always at disadvantage as the law sides the ladies more...</p> <p>second, fancy getting involved with china women, you are simply courting death..</p> <p>All she wants is $$$, jus give her some...</p> </div> </blockquote> <p> </p>
This will be my last reply to you, because I feel like I am being drawn into a fight with you and your comments are noted. Thank you once again.
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Then I will repeat again.
Go find a lawyer. And all of us can be thankful.
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next time dont do such a foolish thing lor.
