Is possession of LOST item a crime?
-
Hi all,
Understand our SG law that it is a crime to be in possession of a stolen, theft or robbery items.
What about LOST items?
My friend lost a hp, then came to knew who (a stranger) found it.
The "finder" refused to return the hp as he stated since he found it, he is entitled to keep it because he did not possess the hp thru illegal or forceful means.
The "finder" further told my friend that even if he will to sell the hp away to a 2nd hand shop or trade in with Singtel for a new hp, he still have not committed any wrong doing, as far as the law goes.
Like to know whether the "finder" statement is true?
If it is true, another question came to my mind.
What if a person trade in or sell a STOLEN hp to legitimate company such as Singtel or a 2nd hand shop, when discovered by the police, could Singtel or the 2nd hand shop be held responsible for possession of a STOLEN item?
Or Singtel and the 2nd hand shop could easily use the same reasoning as above that they gain possession of the STOLEN hp thru proper and legal means by paying cash or trade in with another phone, thus they are not to be held responsible for any crime that might have committed, in this case "possession of a stolen item".
Would they (Singtel & the rest) got to keep the hp ultimately?
Thanks in advance for any reply to my questions.
YH -
if u guys must noe, local telcos dun take just e fones alone.
they need full set accessories meaning
-orig battery
-orig charger
-orig earpc if any
- no modifications done at all
e dealers nowadays also dun tk in the fones alone,
& they will ask u for ur ic before u sell to them.
wat i can suggest if u noe who's that guy go to e police.
chances r u wont get fone bek, but his name is
dwn in e records for gud. so congrats to tht stupid fool! -
yes.. possession of property believed to be stolen or fraudulent possesion of property are all crime...forgot which section...
-
the guy will be in deep shit.
-
Thank you all for your replies.
Unless my friend make a police report that his hp was STOLEN, ROB or CHEATED(which is not true in his case), I believe the police will not act on the "finder". Am I right with my assumption here? Since there was no actual crime being committed by the "finder" on my friend to gain the possession of his hp.
Worst case, my friend will kena charge by the police for making a WRONG INFORMATION REPORT when it was proven to be case of LOST hp instead of STOLEN.
Anyway, to cut the case short, my friend was given back his hp after he paid the "finder" $50. Once again, was wondering is there a wrong doing(legally) being committed here since money was used in the exchange.
Btw, read about this front page news on The Straits Times today. What are your views guys?
Database to fight rising cell phone thefts
Police exploring idea of phone identity cards, which could let networks block handsets.
Could the idea by the police works? Would the telcos Singtel, M1 & Starhub co-operate? Already Singtel sound hesistant in their reply to the idea.
YH -
Unlikely the telcos will cooperate, more people lost phones=better handphone sales for the telcos.
-
My sentiment exactly, so how?Originally posted by shade343:Unlikely the telcos will cooperate, more people lost phones=better handphone sales for the telcos.
Once again, we consumers become suckers.
Or could the police or our gahmen force the telcos to co-operate? -
Originally posted by Young@heart:
i tink they are hesitant to the idea becos blocking a phone from the network will slow the entire network down... so if u sway sway lost a phone--- too bad...get another one..
Thank you all for your replies.
Unless my friend make a police report that his hp was STOLEN, ROB or CHEATED(which is not true in his case), I believe the police will not act on the "finder". Am I right with my assumption here? Since there was no actual crime being committed by the "finder" on my friend to gain the possession of his hp.
Worst case, my friend will kena charge by the police for making a WRONG INFORMATION REPORT when it was proven to be case of LOST hp instead of STOLEN.
Anyway, to cut the case short, my friend was given back his hp after he paid the "finder" $50. Once again, was wondering is there a wrong doing(legally) being committed here since money was used in the exchange.
Btw, read about this front page news on The Straits Times today. What are your views guys?
[b]Database to fight rising cell phone thefts
Police exploring idea of phone identity cards, which could let networks block handsets.
Could the idea by the police works? Would the telcos Singtel, M1 & Starhub co-operate? Already Singtel sound hesistant in their reply to the idea.
YH
[/b]
-
Gahmen must introduce legislation!Originally posted by Young@heart:My sentiment exactly, so how?
Once again, we consumers become suckers.
Or could the police or our gahmen force the telcos to co-operate? -
OK! Your assumption accepted.... about telcos network operation might slow down.Originally posted by ctstalin:i tink they are hesitant to the idea becos blocking a phone from the network will slow the entire network down... so if u sway sway lost a phone--- too bad...get another one..
For discussion sake, what you think of the idea by the police, creating a imea database, assuming w/out telcos co-operation.
How would they go about gathering information and making people like us to participate in such program, for our own benefits?
Or to bring this discussion abit further, what if there is a cost to be charged for implementing this idea. Will you still participate?
Assuming there is a cost to be paid by us, what will be the reasonable amount one prepared to pay? -
hey all of u stop guessing lah, all wrong. to be very honest w u, im it's not that e telcos not willing, but do u guys noe who's ruling e 3 telcos? IDA - infocom development authority (singapore). if this big boss says no, wat can e 3 telcos do? we can't do anything unless gvn green light by the big boss. n no, police will nvr have such a thing called IMEI database. cos wen u lose phone, no need to mk police report, just call ur svc provider to temporarily disconnect ur line will do.
dun ask me how i noe or where i'm from.
just tk it as it's true cos im not lying.
if i dunno or not sure & not true will not put in black n white here. -
it is a crime to keep a lost item even a $1 note.
-
Thanks sk1417Originally posted by sk1417:hey all of u stop guessing lah, all wrong. to be very honest w u, im it's not that e telcos not willing, but do u guys noe who's ruling e 3 telcos? IDA - infocom development authority (singapore). if this big boss says no, wat can e 3 telcos do? we can't do anything unless gvn green light by the big boss. n no, police will nvr have such a thing called IMEI database. cos wen u lose phone, no need to mk police report, just call ur svc provider to temporarily disconnect ur line will do.
dun ask me how i noe or where i'm from.
just tk it as it's true cos im not lying.
if i dunno or not sure & not true will not put in black n white here.
OIC, so if this problem need to be tackle by the police, first they have to go after the "big boss" - IDA.
IDA or the telcos may not co-operate with the police to provide the IMEI, what if they get handphone owners to provide the IMEI themselves.
My question was how the police could go about it, meaning getting hp owners to provide the IMEI voluntarily or at least optionally?
YH -
In sg law, there is no such thing as finders' keeper. Advise your fren to lodge a police report.Originally posted by Young@heart:Hi all,
Understand our SG law that it is a crime to be in possession of a stolen, theft or robbery items.
What about LOST items?
My friend lost a hp, then came to knew who (a stranger) found it.
The "finder" refused to return the hp as he stated since he found it, he is entitled to keep it because he did not possess the hp thru illegal or forceful means.
The "finder" further told my friend that even if he will to sell the hp away to a 2nd hand shop or trade in with Singtel for a new hp, he still have not committed any wrong doing, as far as the law goes.
Like to know whether the "finder" statement is true?
If it is true, another question came to my mind.
What if a person trade in or sell a STOLEN hp to legitimate company such as Singtel or a 2nd hand shop, when discovered by the police, could Singtel or the 2nd hand shop be held responsible for possession of a STOLEN item?
Or Singtel and the 2nd hand shop could easily use the same reasoning as above that they gain possession of the STOLEN hp thru proper and legal means by paying cash or trade in with another phone, thus they are not to be held responsible for any crime that might have committed, in this case "possession of a stolen item".
Would they (Singtel & the rest) got to keep the hp ultimately?
Thanks in advance for any reply to my questions.
YH -
Young@heart, first & foremost u must noe wen it comes to fones police dun wanna handle anymore cos sporeans chngg foneslike nobody's biz.
so if in any case IDA e big boss approves (Which i doubt ever ever will cos been discussed several tyms), e telcos will bar e fones directly. but it doesn't mean owner will get fone bek. just lose fone but finder doesn't stand to gain.
Australia's practising that alr.
it's also troublesome for consumers. imagine u buy fones w/o contract, always calling ur svc provider to update ur new IMEI, irritating or not? u irritatin urself, irritate e customer svc officer.
consumers can find out IMEI thru ur box or if purchased thru e 3 telcos' shops w 2yr contract, will have form, should indicate IMEI on it.
just rmbr police will not meddle w telcos unless serious/life-threatening cases. small petty things like loss cases/stolen stuff, nope. imagine if police do tht der will nvr be peace in e NPCs!
just an advice cos i'll just say i'm a telco person but not saying which... -
if ur fren really can prove that the phone belongs to him/her..go ahead and make the report..
-
Wah, imagined a hp with a locked network. Sian, the hp ain't worth anything anymore.
-
Hardware ROM can be flashed.Originally posted by ditzy:Wah, imagined a hp with a locked network. Sian, the hp ain't worth anything anymore. -
So it is a crime to keep a LOST item. Thanks draggOriginally posted by dragg:it is a crime to keep a lost item even a $1 note.
Double confirmed by laoda99. "kum sia lu" laoda.Originally posted by laoda99:In sg law, there is no such thing as finders' keeper. Advise your fren to lodge a police report.
Thanks for the insight sk1417, from someone who is in the telco industry.Originally posted by sk1417:Young@heart, first & foremost u must noe wen it comes to fones police dun wanna handle anymore cos sporeans chngg foneslike nobody's biz.
so if in any case IDA e big boss approves (Which i doubt ever ever will cos been discussed several tyms), e telcos will bar e fones directly. but it doesn't mean owner will get fone bek. just lose fone but finder doesn't stand to gain.
Australia's practising that alr.
it's also troublesome for consumers. imagine u buy fones w/o contract, always calling ur svc provider to update ur new IMEI, irritating or not? u irritatin urself, irritate e customer svc officer.
consumers can find out IMEI thru ur box or if purchased thru e 3 telcos' shops w 2yr contract, will have form, should indicate IMEI on it.
just rmbr police will not meddle w telcos unless serious/life-threatening cases. small petty things like loss cases/stolen stuff, nope. imagine if police do tht der will nvr be peace in e NPCs!
just an advice cos i'll just say i'm a telco person but not saying which...
Could relate to your scenerio, about the irritation of keep updating a IMEI whenever changing to a new hp, have a fren keep changing to the latest model of hp every 2 - 3 months, just like changing underwears.
Thanks stellazio, but the "finder" was a stranger, have no name, so how to make a report.Originally posted by stellazio:if ur fren really can prove that the phone belongs to him/her..go ahead and make the report..
Whatever, the case is closed. My fren paid him $50 to get back his hp. 
Understand some advertised to buy locked hp, think there is a way for dishonest people to unlock it.Originally posted by ditzy:Wah, imagined a hp with a locked network. Sian, the hp ain't worth anything anymore. Thanks ditzy.
Am a technology idiot myself, care to elaborate more about what your statement mean? Thanks LazerLordzOriginally posted by LazerLordz:Hardware ROM can be flashed.
-
wtf. yr fren WILL NOT BE KANA CHARGED!!Originally posted by Young@heart:Thank you all for your replies.
Unless my friend make a police report that his hp was STOLEN, ROB or CHEATED(which is not true in his case), I believe the police will not act on the "finder". Am I right with my assumption here? Since there was no actual crime being committed by the "finder" on my friend to gain the possession of his hp.
Worst case, my friend will kena charge by the police for making a WRONG INFORMATION REPORT when it was proven to be case of LOST hp instead of STOLEN.
Anyway, to cut the case short, my friend was given back his hp after he paid the "finder" $50. Once again, was wondering is there a wrong doing(legally) being committed here since money was used in the exchange.
anyways, he have evidence that the person contacted him right? got sms? that means the bloody guy is threatening your friend to pay up for his own stuff.
but no... your friend scared, decided not to trust the law and decided to give in to those exhortions.
picking up and keeping things dat does not belong to u is a damm crime. even if its 10 cents. and the worst is, your friend knew the contacts of that bloody thief, talked to him and might even have sms to prove?
and he paid up. wtf. -
Paiseh lah Ito_^Originally posted by Ito_^:wtf. yr fren WILL NOT BE KANA CHARGED!!
anyways, he have evidence that the person contacted him right? got sms? that means the bloody guy is threatening your friend to pay up for his own stuff.
but no... your friend scared, decided not to trust the law and decided to give in to those exhortions.
picking up and keeping things dat does not belong to u is a damm crime. even if its 10 cents. and the worst is, your friend knew the contacts of that bloody thief, talked to him and might even have sms to prove?
and he paid up. wtf. me should have tell the whole story.
The "finder" did not called my fren and demand reward.
My fren turned back to the food court where he had left behind his hp on the table, can't find his hp.
Using another fren hp, called up his own hp numbers there and then.
Hp ringed from a few tables away, my fren saw a guy took up a hp and look at it and off it.
My fren approached him, asked whether the "finder" pick up his hp, the "finder" deny it.
My fren said he just called and saw him holding his hp and off it.
That was when the "finder" make the statement that he had not committed any wrong doing by keeping something that he had found, something which he said was not a crime in the first place, so not happy report police lor!
My fren not too sure about the law, lan lan bargain with him to take back his hp. So at the end, paid him $50 to solve the whole problem. -
I think your friend should make a police report all the same if he can recognise the guy or had some way to contact him.
Why should your friend pay 50 dollars for something that belongs to him?? Same thing happened to my relative once and my relative made a report.
Regarding the phone itself the closest offence would probably be:
Dishonest misappropriation of property [in the Penal Code].
403. Whoever dishonestly misappropriates or converts to his own use movable property, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both.
Explanation 2 [to the above section]
A person who finds property not in the possession of any other person, and takes such property for the purpose of protecting it for, or of restoring it to the owner, does not take or misappropriate it dishonestly, and is not guilty of an offence; but he is guilty of the offence above defined, if he appropriates it to his own use, when he knows or has the means of discovering the owner, or before he has used reasonable means to discover and give notice to the owner, and has kept the property a reasonable time to enable the owner to claim it.
I don't think the "use" part is necessary - as long as it is 'misappropriated'. And I think from what the guy said he quite obviously was not helping your friend protect the phone / had the intention of restoring it to him.
And anyway demanding money for the return of the phone would be:
Extortion.
383. Whoever intentionally puts any person in fear of any injury to that person or to any other, and thereby dishonestly induces the person so put in fear to deliver to any person any property or valuable security, or anything signed or sealed which may be converted into a valuable security, commits “extortion”.
Injury doesn't mean only things like bruise or cut etc ... things like harm - loss - caused to person in property terms also can.
Don't let this fellow get away with extorting 50 bucks - sekali he go and try the trick on other people. -
.. dats even worse.Originally posted by Young@heart:Paiseh lah Ito_^ me should have tell the whole story.
The "finder" did not called my fren and demand reward.
My fren turned back to the food court where he had left behind his hp on the table, can't find his hp.
Using another fren hp, called up his own hp numbers there and then.
Hp ringed from a few tables away, my fren saw a guy took up a hp and look at it and off it.
My fren approached him, asked whether the "finder" pick up his hp, the "finder" deny it.
My fren said he just called and saw him holding his hp and off it.
That was when the "finder" make the statement that he had not committed any wrong doing by keeping something that he had found, something which he said was not a crime in the first place, so not happy report police lor!
My fren not too sure about the law, lan lan bargain with him to take back his hp. So at the end, paid him $50 to solve the whole problem. right in his face leh.
really feel like puking blood. nothing to say. if im u're fren either i call the cops right there or i take something whack him straight. knn, not happy he go call police lor. -
Thanks alot, Eating Snake.Originally posted by Eating Snake:I think your friend should make a police report all the same if he can recognise the guy or had some way to contact him.
Why should your friend pay 50 dollars for something that belongs to him?? Same thing happened to my relative once and my relative made a report.
Regarding the phone itself the closest offence would probably be:
Dishonest misappropriation of property [in the Penal Code].
403. Whoever dishonestly misappropriates or converts to his own use movable property, shall be punished with imprisonment for a term which may extend to 2 years, or with fine, or with both.
Explanation 2 [to the above section]
A person who finds property not in the possession of any other person, and takes such property for the purpose of protecting it for, or of restoring it to the owner, does not take or misappropriate it dishonestly, and is not guilty of an offence; but he is guilty of the offence above defined, if he appropriates it to his own use, when he knows or has the means of discovering the owner, or before he has used reasonable means to discover and give notice to the owner, and has kept the property a reasonable time to enable the owner to claim it.
I don't think the "use" part is necessary - as long as it is 'misappropriated'. And I think from what the guy said he quite obviously was not helping your friend protect the phone / had the intention of restoring it to him.
And anyway demanding money for the return of the phone would be:
Extortion.
383. Whoever intentionally puts any person in fear of any injury to that person or to any other, and thereby dishonestly induces the person so put in fear to deliver to any person any property or valuable security, or anything signed or sealed which may be converted into a valuable security, commits “extortion”.
Injury doesn't mean only things like bruise or cut etc ... things like harm - loss - caused to person in property terms also can.
Don't let this fellow get away with extorting 50 bucks - sekali he go and try the trick on other people.
Like many others who had reply earlier to my query, you have been a great help....*applause...applause*
Today I got to learn something new from you about the penal code.
Thanks again, your reply shown that you are not as idle as your nick "Eating Snake" would imply, you really on the ball man!
I will be talking about another baffling case in my next reply, hope you could help to contribute to the reason why the police was acting in that manner.
YH -
Originally posted by Young@heart:
crazy... call the police den nap the guy when u meet him to conclude ur "deal". Possession of other ppl property = stealing.
Thank you all for your replies.
Unless my friend make a police report that his hp was STOLEN, ROB or CHEATED(which is not true in his case), I believe the police will not act on the "finder". Am I right with my assumption here? Since there was no actual crime being committed by the "finder" on my friend to gain the possession of his hp.
Worst case, my friend will kena charge by the police for making a WRONG INFORMATION REPORT when it was proven to be case of LOST hp instead of STOLEN.
Anyway, to cut the case short, my friend was given back his hp after he paid the "finder" $50. Once again, was wondering is there a wrong doing(legally) being committed here since money was used in the exchange.
Btw, read about this front page news on The Straits Times today. What are your views guys?
[b]Database to fight rising cell phone thefts
Police exploring idea of phone identity cards, which could let networks block handsets.
Could the idea by the police works? Would the telcos Singtel, M1 & Starhub co-operate? Already Singtel sound hesistant in their reply to the idea.
YH
[/b]