GE 2011: Gender Equality Balance: Draft Girls to NS? Be Fair
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Originally posted by sbst275:
then who is really going to defend the country at any time?We can get ppl to sign on, implications? You want MRT, you want to spend on this, now you also want to increase defence spending to keep a regular army.
Yet no one wants to pay more taxes
This is not e Republican US who goes around sprouting things tat's impossible to be done.
Certainly not me. After having been through NS and encountering so many idiots and complete ahole and sociopaths, I don't feel all that patriotic anymore; or that SG is worth defending? What is there to defend anyway? The only strategy is to destroy the enemy (or deal as much pain to them until they think its just not worth it) like a hornet's nest before they destroy us IMO. I doubt our rich ministers would have their family to stay behind to defend in times of total war anyway.
But anyway, my main beef is still the fact that only males have to serve some form of NS and for such an insanely long duration just because of the gender we are born as; and that we are treated so badly and not properly compensated (especially those who had served in the past) -- and as guys, we have to cut hair and dye it black every year when we go back for reservice. It wouldn't be such a big issue if females have to serve some kind of sai kang NS too -- perhaps TIB would suggest females go NS do "house chores" base on what s/he think's female's roles are (which I disagree).
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Originally posted by Phorum Noob:
Certainly not me. After having been through NS and encountering so many idiots and complete ahole and sociopaths, I don't feel all that patriotic anymore; or that SG is worth defending? What is there to defend anyway? The only strategy is to destroy the enemy (or deal as much pain to them until they think its just not worth it) like a hornet's nest before they destroy us IMO. I doubt our rich ministers would have their family to stay behind to defend in times of total war anyway.
But anyway, my main beef is still the fact that only males have to serve some form of NS and for such an insanely long duration just because of the gender we are born as; and that we are treated so badly and not properly compensated (especially those who had served in the past) -- and as guys, we have to cut hair and dye it black every year when we go back for reservice. It wouldn't be such a big issue if females have to serve some kind of sai kang NS too -- perhaps TIB would suggest females go NS do "house chores" base on what s/he think's female's roles are (which I disagree).
Then its too bad lor.
Too bad that you don't get to see stuff in your NS that would have made your balls shrink, if you have any to start with.
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i would rather they do something to balance up women charter with men's interests as well...
else, u will see more singles - for the simple reason that marriage and divorce becomes a shared liability of both gender than being lopsided or in favour of any one gender
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Phorum Noob u are making an arguement that do not take into consideration of the whole picture.. Sorry that u have an bad experience for your NSF time.. Your bad experience should not be use as your reason to abolish the 2 years ns cycle.. U sound like one of those politician that do not support ns at all.. or totally want to remove ns.i think 2 years is a good figure.. or the most will be 1 years 10mths.. nothing should be lower than that.. cause training and really applied what is learn takes time.first years for training.. officer, specialist, men also undergo training during that first year.second year is where the training are put into good use. It is important and no want want to be a half past six in everything.. Talk only and no action..accept the fact that male and female are different. no choice argue about it.. Nothing can be fair or have a balance..
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
Then its too bad lor.
Too bad that you don't get to see stuff in your NS that would have made your balls shrink, if you have any to start with.
Weak.
And why the talk about balls? You are proud to have massive hairy balls like a low-life smelly macho-beast? Supid hyper-machismo attitude.
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Originally posted by Berner ong:Phorum Noob u are making an arguement that do not take into consideration of the whole picture.. Sorry that u have an bad experience for your NSF time.. Your bad experience should not be use as your reason to abolish the 2 years ns cycle.. U sound like one of those politician that do not support ns at all.. or totally want to remove ns.i think 2 years is a good figure.. or the most will be 1 years 10mths.. nothing should be lower than that.. cause training and really applied what is learn takes time.first years for training.. officer, specialist, men also undergo training during that first year.second year is where the training are put into good use. It is important and no want want to be a half past six in everything.. Talk only and no action..accept the fact that male and female are different. no choice argue about it.. Nothing can be fair or have a balance..
Berner, I know in a way I'm venting and thus sound unreasonable.
However, 2 years is a really long time, especially as a part of our youth, and I definately don't feel that we are properly compensated or even appreciated (especially for those who had served 2.5 or even longer). Seeing the corruption of "white-horse" companies also made me kinda pissed.
Furthermore, the annoying fact that males still have to be forced to cut our hair short and dye it black whenever we return for reservice; and losing our commission-pay and sacrificing performance to compete with others who doesn't have to serve. Some of the nsmen who lost equipments, or something risk having to pay fines on top of that or worse, despite of the sacrifices they've already made.
But most importantly, and which is the focus of this thread:
Again, with the point of having females serving NS, it doesn't necessarily have to be hardcore military service. There are loads and loads of sai-kangs and guard-petro duties that most women can help out with, and waste their (now ONLY) 2 years with the people who are born as males. For the fitter and manly-looking females (I've seen plenty), they can go for training as men.
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Having female in NS is not a bad idea, but think that means our people will have lesser chance of fighting the career opportunity against the foreigners.
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Originally posted by Fcukpap:
i would rather they do something to balance up women charter with men's interests as well...
else, u will see more singles - for the simple reason that marriage and divorce becomes a shared liability of both gender than being lopsided or in favour of any one gender
I fully agree that this issue should be addressed too.
Also, I think society have too many stupid-machismo rules and pressure for men to adhere to in modern day, especially as influenced by the western media; while luckily, modernized eastern cultures (such as in Japan, S.Korea, Taiwan, etc) seems to be progressing the other way. But that's for another topic in a different forum.
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Originally posted by henshin:
Having female in NS is not a bad idea, but think that means our people will have lesser chance of fighting the career opportunity against the foreigners.
Foreigners and people (males or females) who have not served NS, should pay much higher tax (at the very least) to compensate us who have served.
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NS active service can be shortened to 1 year, but at what cost? BMT can finish in less than 2 months, very simple, no book out on weekends and a lot lesser sleep for the guys lor.
My time when I did two and the half years, just the first year alone was spent on course till I got my specialist badge, then managed to touch unit. People who keep saying NS should be shortened to 1 year or less obviously have no idea how an active unit operates and the kind of training they undergo to get them up and operational. I thought it was pretty fantastic they cut ICTs from 13 to 10 cycles already.
They can cut to 5 cycles if you want, just make sure each cycle is 1-2 months stretch lor.
As for income taxes, we pay one of the lowest in the world. Maybe you think I am bullshitting, but you gotta see what the others pay first. If you ask me, I just wished the govt raised the income tax rebate for active NSmen from $3000 to something alot higher, then it'll make a difference.
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Want to shorten NS ah? Can, very easy. Buy more sand and rocks from indonesia, build this great big range of mountains around us to shield us.
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Originally posted by the Bear:
a badly trained soldier is just cannon fodder..
and good training takes time..
the Lim Siah Suay bullshit about faster, better and cheaper results in the shit we see around now...
you want to be cannon fodder?
you want your sons to be cannon fodder?
your choice
I do agree with TS about 12 months duration. If you want to have motivational and enthusiastic people in the army, there has to be more welfare, financially as priority. Currently, what is the pay? $400+? Lol, how to be happy?
You pay peanuts, you get monkeys. Increase the overall salary for those who wish to stay on after 12 months.
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This thread isn't about shortening NS, but about the unfairness that people born as females do not have to serve some form of NS, while even PES Es have to serve (see points above, don't repeat refuted arguments against this).
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I dont see the need for female to serve the ns.
Maybe they can be drafted to work in admin or paper work for 1 yr?
And guys active ns for 1 yr?
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You know.
That we have people here who have the luxury to talk about NS being useless, and women needing to do NS is testimony to the sacrifice of others who allow this to happen.
As stated above, some clearly have little inkling of how vital NS is.
As for women doing NS, no. We don't need more waiting at rifle ranges. Males only, and you already have waiting to wait. What's the point of making females do NS? Are you forgetting that NS first and foremost is about defense and not about conscripting everyone? Even admin side, we have plenty of support from the guys already with some civilian clerks. And even with all of them, I had plenty of nonsense dealing with the admin, hence the famous "efficiency".
You did saikang. I'm sorry you were under some retards.
But that didn't mean the rest of us did the same thing.
How are you going to tell this to the parents of those who gave their lives in the course of duty?
How about the poor NSF who was only weeks short of ORD when he kena kiap by ship machinery out at sea when you people argue here?
Do you know what many of us NSFs do?
How can you just suka-suka call for 1 year when a lot of us took the same amount to receive only basic training? The real training begins with unit.
If you don't, then just do your saikang and stop questioning it.
I'm more than happy to serve and f*cuk off, but I don't want to f*ck off without doing anything, and just training.
Don't forget: Police and civil defence NSFs.
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Originally posted by likeyou:
I dont see the need for female to serve the ns.
Maybe they can be drafted to work in admin or paper work for 1 yr?
And guys active ns for 1 yr?
the SAF is alrdy inefficient enough w/ e current strength.. They have to lean down on tis part really
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Originally posted by sbst275:
the SAF is alrdy inefficient enough w/ e current strength.. They have to lean down on tis part reallyinefficient due to work processes. they have got enough people... just that people arent doing anything.... lengthy chains to get things done.... and all the arrowing here arrowing there... nothing gets done at the end of the day.... =X
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Originally posted by Phorum Noob:
Not every "ladies" are going to get married anyway, some might not even be able to get a boyfriend or get married (or want to), and not all females are gonna be housewifes anyway; and many of them want a career nowadays. Regardless of your gender, those gender-expectations of females are sexist too.
Other than those butches I think most of the ladies are going to get married anyway.
Some might not even get boyfriends? How sure are you? Have you been 'observing the streets' or are you being a hermit (crab)?
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Originally posted by TIB1167D:
Other than those butches I think most of the ladies are going to get married anyway.
Some might not even get boyfriends? How sure are you? Have you been 'observing the streets' or are you being a hermit (crab)?
Still, it is NOT a valid argument. This is the 21st century, where women are allowed to hold a career and wear something besides skirts and aren't expected stay in kitchen to make "their men" sandwitches.
Male freedom on the other hand is still stuck in the dark ages where we male-people are pressured to act macho and tough all the time for fear of being bullied by other aggressive-beasts. From young we aren't allowed to grow our hair long because that is against the artificial socially-imposed image of what is a male (and especially during NS and after, during reservices -- even though we are not sign-ons); and that rule is harshly imposed in schools. If you are too skinny, people will insult you to psychologically force you to go to a gym when you have no interest in bulking up, etc. If you are born looking too androgenyous, some thick-smelly-hairy-macho-beasts would call you gu-liang in an insulting manner, or even gay especially if you get one of those japanese style hair (then have to cut off during reservice). Guys aren't allowed by machismo society to freely express our emotions, and we are just expected to "toughen-up" w/o seeking support from others, and it goes on.
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The inefficiencies of the NS as it already is no valid reason to ignore gender-equality. I had to serve guard duties pretty much every weekends due to the 9/11, virtually lost 70% of bookouts consequetively all the way till I ORD. Then during busy times, I had to work w/o guard rest otherwise there is an unspoken risk of being "marked". It would help us a lot if women does the guard duties, etc, and take over the sai-kangs of PES-Es. Why should PES-Ds and Es even have to serve? NS isn't just abit being a zombie-soilder, there are loads of other positions to fill. I can go on, many of my arguments put forth earlier hasn't been properly addressed, and I'm not gonna repeat myself again.
If people seriously think that women are useless in NS (which I don't), I've already proposed an alternative; that people who have served to pay less taxes, covered by those who don't (i.e. women and foreigners).
If its for defence, why not we load ourselves up with scary missiles and invest in other technologies instead? As I've proposed earlier, if someone attack us, we'll just do an insane hornet's-nest style offensive, bomb the hell out of their cities and any expensive installations, and make their leader feel the pain. Announce this strategy as a psychological deterent perhaps. I don't see even with the current army how we are to "defend" SG on the homeground w/o seeing it reduced to rubble. But that's besides the point of this topic. Might as well just leave (as I suspect the ministers probably would) as it'll become pointless at the end of it.
Back to the point: Get rid of PES-Ds and Es and force PES-A and B women serve "some form" of NS.
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If you crave that perceived advantages women have, then why not
Voila! Problem solved.
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
If you crave that perceived advantages women have, then why not
Voila! Problem solved.
This is non sequitur and just plain retarded. Go back to sucking your own stinky hairy big beastly balls that you seem to love so much if you have nothing valuable to say.
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Originally posted by Phorum Noob:
The inefficiencies of the NS as it already is no valid reason to ignore gender-equality. I had to serve guard duties pretty much every weekends due to the 9/11, virtually lost 70% of bookouts consequetively all the way till I ORD. Then during busy times, I had to work w/o guard rest otherwise there is an unspoken risk of being "marked". It would help us a lot if women does the guard duties, etc, and take over the sai-kangs of PES-Es. Why should PES-Ds and Es even have to serve? NS isn't just abit being a zombie-soilder, there are loads of other positions to fill. I can go on, many of my arguments put forth earlier hasn't been properly addressed, and I'm not gonna repeat myself again.
If people seriously think that women are useless in NS (which I don't), I've already proposed an alternative; that people who have served to pay less taxes, covered by those who don't (i.e. women and foreigners).
If its for defence, why not we load ourselves up with scary missiles and invest in other technologies instead? As I've proposed earlier, if someone attack us, we'll just do an insane hornet's-nest style offensive, bomb the hell out of their cities and any expensive installations, and make their leader feel the pain. Announce this strategy as a psychological deterent perhaps. I don't see even with the current army how we are to "defend" SG on the homeground w/o seeing it reduced to rubble. But that's besides the point of this topic. Might as well just leave (as I suspect the ministers probably would) as it'll become pointless at the end of it.
Back to the point: Get rid of PES-Ds and Es and force PES-A and B women serve "some form" of NS.
Point in red:
You don't see.
That's good.
Because interestingly, we want the enemy to guess as well.
Anyway
What's the big deal about not being able to book out?
I was from a stay-out unit but my guard duty was at one point nearly 1 in 3-4 days. That's not inclusive of the frequent exercises which will see us stay-in...and my guard-duty is not your normal guard-duty. Its stressful and strenous and we really learn as we do the duties, hence my lack of support for 1 year NS. It took me 1.5 years to be confident enough to not need to ask around for help.
Its the norm to burn holidays, weekends, etc etc.
And the some of the down-PES folks, chao-keng or not aside, were slow in following through some of our requests.
That included my friggin pay-rise when I promoted. I lost 3 months of increment thanks to that. You think having women to help will solve this fundamental issue?
Its already ONLY 2 years. Just do it.
Because unlike you, majority of us still have to serve for another 20+ years.
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Gender Equality?
Nothing is fair in this world,there are some born in rich family while some being poor and there are both pros and cons being a male and being a female, i think everyone should know it and i will not listed these points
I understand how it feel to serve NS,i also completed 2.5 yrs and now still doing that stupid ICT even being a Pes E but nowadays kids just need to serve 2 yrs,this is also unfair to me but if i compare serving NS with my father and uncles,they will sure have tougher life than me.
Hence Comparing with others,it a never ending story
The best solutions at the end of the day is very simple.
Work overseas or better still leave Singapore but then when we go to another country , being a foreigner there we may also face the same situation as a foreigner here