Customer Service Standard of Pass Offices
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ya.. occurs outside, a complain would sure fire out
but in this incident, "she" is trying to enter a military base. It is a senitive location, a place where not any tom, dick or harry can enter.
if "she" try to enter ur house without a proper identification and valid reason. I beg you would have ask "her" the same qns too. -
Originally posted by Berner ong:
ya.. occurs outside, a complain would sure fire out
but in this incident, "she" is trying to enter a military base. It is a senitive location, a place where not any tom, dick or harry can enter.
if "she" try to enter ur house without a proper identification and valid reason. I beg you would have ask "her" the same qns too.
so wat if it's a military base? if tat being e case it also goes to places like Airport alsothe way of handling ppl is e same. dun go kpo and ask tat kind of questions, do you like it to hear such qns if it's you? sounds dumb and end up for no reason escalate threats
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Originally posted by sbst275:
so wat if it's a military base? if tat being e case it also goes to places like Airport alsothe way of handling ppl is e same. dun go kpo and ask tat kind of questions, do you like it to hear such qns if it's you? sounds dumb and end up for no reason escalate threats
Do note that an airport is a public place but a military base is a place of high security and no civilian is allowed to enter a military camp without proper identification or purpose.
A RP can challenge anyone who request to enter the camp and its the proper thing a RP should do and reject entry to anyone without proper forms of identification. Further questioning is up to the individual RP and he did not ask anything that is considered stupid in the eyes of security.
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Originally posted by dkcx:
U don't have to force your way in. As long as you request to enter the camp, ur intentions is more important and whether letting you in or not is a different matter.
Your example is one of trying to enter illegally. As such i highlighted that TS was trying to enter via legal means. And i believe it is consencus that the guard can refuse entry.
How would you know whether someone is just trying to come closer to the camp to spy on the camp etc?
Do not rely on wikipedia for anything important. Please go read the actual penal code if you want to be sure since you cannot go tell a police when they caught you for breaking a law that wikipedia says that its not against the law.
I believe i pointed out that within the National Registration Act, it does not say that it is a must to carry it. Anyway, even if a person who does not bring around her IC is punishable, the military also dont have authority over it. The guard can deny entry but nothing else.
Originally posted by Berner ong:sbst275 u keep mention about the guard attitude and ORD liao all going out to society to work, you can't run away from it.
For god sake.. he is doing his job.. I think the guard did his job well.
In the first place, the guard may have politely ask for "her" ic.
"she" can't produce it, the guard has the right to be on alert and ask what is the intention of coming here. Without being able to produce a proper identification.
"Why you didnt bring your IC".
"Why you put at home?"
"Why you forgot to bring?!"
Is the right qns to ask if the guard suspect that she might have bad intention.
Instead is the way that the so call civilian reply the qns has lousy attitude.
"Cos i left it at home?"
(FYI, im a civilian) I replied, " Cos I forgot to bring?"
I was so pissed that I said, "You mean i cant forget to bring?"
That is her reply what. Reply comes after the question. And i believe the guard asked some pretty silly questions. I mean, for the sake of sanity, what information is he trying to obtain by asking the following:
"Why you didnt bring your IC".
"Why you put at home?"
"Why you forgot to bring?!"
As a guard, you are representing the military. Do you think such demeanor will enhance the reputation of the military?
Originally posted by Berner ong:ya.. occurs outside, a complain would sure fire out
but in this incident, "she" is trying to enter a military base. It is a senitive location, a place where not any tom, dick or harry can enter.
if "she" try to enter ur house without a proper identification and valid reason. I beg you would have ask "her" the same qns too.Its a different place, the organisation you are representing is also different. And those questions does little to determine anything...
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Originally posted by dkcx:
Do note that an airport is a public place but a military base is a place of high security and no civilian is allowed to enter a military camp without proper identification or purpose.
A RP can challenge anyone who request to enter the camp and its the proper thing a RP should do and reject entry to anyone without proper forms of identification. Further questioning is up to the individual RP and he did not ask anything that is considered stupid in the eyes of security.
Entire airport except Departure/ Arrival halls & CPs are also considered under restricted place laws similiar to military base. Simply because like military base, you can't allow ppl to just go in and out w/o proper immigration records and so on.it's not stupid, but not tactful. There's no pt on e part of RP to go escalate e threat for no reason. simply say NO and tat's it and take note of after-action behaviour. dun go kpo ask these and tat. if not careful, it could also end up become harrassment
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Originally posted by ahbeo:
That is her reply what. Reply comes after the question. And i believe the guard asked some pretty silly questions. I mean, for the sake of sanity, what information is he trying to obtain by asking the following:
"Why you didnt bring your IC".
"Why you put at home?"
"Why you forgot to bring?!"
As a guard, you are representing the military. Do you think such demeanor will enhance the reputation of the military?
Its a different place, the organisation you are representing is also different. And those questions does little to determine anything...
You are in no position to question anything that is asked as long as what is asked is relevent in that case. Its up to the individual to determine whether the questions helps anything but a RP can question anyone trying to enter a camp that is suspicious.
The military is a place of security and does not need a good reputation of service since that is not the purpose of having a military for.
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Originally posted by sbst275:
Entire airport except Departure/ Arrival halls & CPs are also considered under restricted place laws similiar to military base. Simply because like military base, you can't allow ppl to just go in and out w/o proper immigration records and so on.it's not stupid, but not tactful. There's no pt on e part of RP to go escalate e threat for no reason. simply say NO and tat's it and take note of after-action behaviour. dun go kpo ask these and tat. if not careful, it could also end up become harrassment
Maybe i should be more specific then but the airport has areas which are open to public and areas which are restricted but a army camp is strictly not for entry to unauthorised personnel and passing something to a brother is something most camps should not even allow entry in the 1st place.
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I was gobbsmacked when I saw the title of this thread...
EXCUSE ME, the Army or the Military or whatever is NOT OBLIGED to give us citizens any "customer service"... We are not their customers, and we are not paying them to serve us.
What TS did was blatantly in the wrong, and though I admit the officer should have conducted himself in a more proper manner, IS THERE SUCH A DAMN NEED to act the way he/she did?
That process of asking the officer, by the way, was a privilege, not a right.
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Originally posted by dkcx:
Maybe i should be more specific then but the airport has areas which are open to public and areas which are restricted but a army camp is strictly not for entry to unauthorised personnel and passing something to a brother is something most camps should not even allow entry in the 1st place.
it's e same to airport transit and cargo centreEven passengers onboard SBS buses serving Airport Cargo Terminal cannot enter beyond e Pass Office w/o specific reasons.
There's nothing special bet SAF's restricted place against Airport restricted place laws, only differences of why it's restricted
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dun ever forget, SAF needs a decent image of its own
Dun ever forget peacetime, YOG and such events it's SAF tar
also as I've said in other threads, SAF's fund comes from e economy and taxpayers
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Originally posted by sbst275:
dun ever forget, SAF needs a decent image of its own
Dun ever forget peacetime, YOG and such events it's SAF tar
also as I've said in other threads, SAF's fund comes from e economy and taxpayers
Yes it needs a decent image of its own, but it doesn't need one that portrays the SAF as a "kind, gentle, courteous" protector of the nation.
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Originally posted by sbst275:
it's e same to airport transit and cargo centreEven passengers onboard SBS buses serving Airport Cargo Terminal cannot enter beyond e Pass Office w/o specific reasons.
There's nothing special bet SAF's restricted place against Airport restricted place laws, only differences of why it's restricted
Airport is not related to SAF so there is no need to discuss or talk so much about the airport here. The point is simply that you do not enter a security organsation without proper identification and purpose.
As long as you choose to enter any restricted place, you are subjected to the questioning of the guards but you are not forced to answer anything you do not want to since you are free to leave the way you came.
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Originally posted by Fryderyk HPH:
Yes it needs a decent image of its own, but it doesn't need one that portrays the SAF as a "kind, gentle, courteous" protector of the nation.
it's not easy to juggle deterrance and civilian r/s, I've to admit thisso simply to say, dun go do stupid things for both parties
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Originally posted by sbst275:
it's e same to airport transit and cargo centreEven passengers onboard SBS buses serving Airport Cargo Terminal cannot enter beyond e Pass Office w/o specific reasons.
There's nothing special bet SAF's restricted place against Airport restricted place laws, only differences of why it's restricted
I will clearly define for you which areas are restricted in Changi Airport. I know this, because I have dealings there.
Cargo Complex and that area along Airline House, Freight Ter and ATC tower is definitely restricted. So are the points at BT, T1, T2, and T3 AFTER you pass immigration.
All areas which the public can currently access is called securitised public domain, which means the public can move in and out, but there is a heightened sense of security(that is why there are guards patrolling there). But to clarify, that is NOT a restricted zone.
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Originally posted by sbst275:
dun ever forget, SAF needs a decent image of its own
Dun ever forget peacetime, YOG and such events it's SAF tar
also as I've said in other threads, SAF's fund comes from e economy and taxpayers
Theres always a difference between in camp and out of camp. The job of anyone in the guardroom does not require politeness and that is strictly on no part of the guardroom standing order that my guards must be polite to anyone who tries to enter the camp.
For external events however, behavior is something that has more importance and more focused on. Do not bother saying they need to always be polite etc so that they will be polite during such events since not everyone is polite all the time in the 1st place and only when its needed. Thats simply just human nature.
Even if you are a tax payer, that does not mean you deserve anything. Go to alot of shopping centers and even a paying customer does not ensure you surely get good service when service is their job and not that of the SAF.
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OT a bit sorry.
If the entire Changi Airport is a restricted zone, then Changi Airport's interest at promoting T3 as a shopping destination has failed miserably.
Then the supermarkets at T3 and T1 might as well close down.
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Originally posted by Fryderyk HPH:
OT a bit sorry.
If the entire Changi Airport is a restricted zone, then Changi Airport's interest at promoting T3 as a shopping destination has failed miserably.
Then the supermarkets at T3 and T1 might as well close down.
I've alrdy said entire airport except Departure/ Arrival Halls + Car Parks.A big chunk in reality is governed by restricted place law
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Originally posted by dkcx:
Theres always a difference between in camp and out of camp. The job of anyone in the guardroom does not require politeness and that is strictly on no part of the guardroom standing order that my guards must be polite to anyone who tries to enter the camp.
For external events however, behavior is something that has more importance and more focused on. Do not bother saying they need to always be polite etc so that they will be polite during such events since not everyone is polite all the time in the 1st place and only when its needed. Thats simply just human nature.
Even if you are a tax payer, that does not mean you deserve anything. Go to alot of shopping centers and even a paying customer does not ensure you surely get good service when service is their job and not that of the SAF.
yes there's no need for politeness, but need to be tactful.
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Originally posted by dkcx:
You are in no position to question anything that is asked as long as what is asked is relevent in that case. Its up to the individual to determine whether the questions helps anything but a RP can question anyone trying to enter a camp that is suspicious.
The military is a place of security and does not need a good reputation of service since that is not the purpose of having a military for.
Got the air of an officer sia. 1st thing 1st, would you kindly advise as to how questions posed by the guard in this case is relevant and is useful in determining if entry should be granted. Secondly, the person, as a civilian, at most would be denied entry, she would not be charged or wadsoever. As such she is in a position to question anything she is asked. And even choose to walk away without answering anything. Just as the guard can deny entry.
Originally posted by Fryderyk HPH:I was gobbsmacked when I saw the title of this thread...
EXCUSE ME, the Army or the Military or whatever is NOT OBLIGED to give us citizens any "customer service"... We are not their customers, and we are not paying them to serve us.
Though taxes, we are paying. And they are in the business of providing security.
What TS did was blatantly in the wrong, and though I admit the officer should have conducted himself in a more proper manner, IS THERE SUCH A DAMN NEED to act the way he/she did?
That process of asking the officer, by the way, was a privilege, not a right.
Asking is a right, to be granted entry is a priviledge.
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Originally posted by sbst275:
yes there's no need for politeness, but need to be tactful.
Personally, i give my guards the right to question anyone who wants to enter the camp since thats their job. TS or anyone else has no obligations to answer anything and is free to leave if he/she wants to.
Sometimes questioning can result in certain clues or slips in a person's motives into an army camp which might be questionable. There should be no reason to stop or disallow questioning even if most people are normal civilians since we cannot even afford any cases of security breaches. Its always better to be safe than sorry.
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ok simply
It's SAF's part of restricted place, so no need on human communication skills and everything is use of force even if it's onto asking kpo questions
fine it's ok to most ppl.
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Originally posted by ahbeo:
Then since to be granted entry is a privilege, why is the TS bitching everywhere?
And also, I have never heard the SAF being conducted as a business entity, being in the "business of providing security"...
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Originally posted by ahbeo:
Remember that TS was not held in the guardroom and forced to answer any questions. She was free to leave if she did not want to answer anything but she chose to answer. Since TS chose to answer, there is no reason for her to come complain here since in a way she asked for it
Anyway, sometimes its the indirect questions where people gives the slips and not direct questions which any terrorist etc would have prepared to answer.
Tax are paid to purchase equipment and support the army not paid for SAF to provide you any customer service when you visit an army camp uninvited. Your safety is the only service SAF has to and has given you.
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I don't see why this has to become a huge issue.
A simple polite but firm line of "Sorry, you need your NRIC/Driving Licence to sign in because it is the only official identification allowed" would have sufficed.
TS's brother should have gone out of camp to collect the item instead. With the security climate as it is today, it is understandable that guards are more vigilant and suspicious of non-regular visitors to their camps.