Originally posted by SpecOps87:Well,for all up there that say you will shoot people who desert blah blah...let me ask you this..what would you do, if you knew you didn't stand a chance cuz the equipment you're given is so cui tt u can't even ensure 100% servicability? If war happens, yes...I will report to my unit, draw my arms and other gear...and vanish in the confusion rather den deploy with the rest as I'll be more useful as a infantry rifleman den some goddamn cannon fodder at the airfields. You want me to fight?I'll fight. But you want me to be cannon fodder?I'm sorry...you've gotta do it yourself.
FDS?
Originally posted by snk86:FDS?
Nope...not FDS.Starts with A, dubbed "Air Force Infantry" as we don't fly or come near aircrafts at all, only time we see them is when they're in our sights and about to press the magical "FIRE" button
Well, I'm sure when war starts, we'll be fighting way before we even we have to fight on home soil.
And if you fire in anger, it's because you want to stay alive and for the people around you.
When you take all the SOPs and doctrines and boil them down, this is the basic tenet of why people fight and defend their homes and way of life. A natural instinct for self-preservation. If we ever have to fight in our streets, I'm sure that it will be a last-ditch effort to retain some form of self-respect.
But, that said, everyone's free to choose to survive as they please. Some will go down fighting, others will do otherwise. It's hard to say in peacetime what one will do in war.
In fact, I'll bet some peaceniks will fight to the death when the bullets start falling around them, and some "warriors" will try and avoid combat as much as possible. But it is only human to want to kill the mofos that tried to harm you and your way of life..
Personally, I have absolutely no interest in fighting a war.
However, i've given it enough thought to realise that should Singapore go to war, the option of 'running away', which most of us take for granted, barely exists.
let's hypothesize.
option 1: FLYING OUT
For the ignorant, airports are key strategic installations that are usually very very high up on the target list for obvious reasons (go figure). Should a war break out, its very likely that changi airport will be one of the first places to be obliterated by enemy airstrikes or shellfire. Even if the airport is miraculously spared complete destruction, foreign airlines would be the first to fly the hell away, evacuating their own citizens, NOT desperate Singaporeans. Local airlines would clearly be grounded because SIA = government, and the government is never going to let AWOL SAF personnel fly off on its krisflyer+inflight entertainment+singapore girl aircraft. Those planes which are not grounded will be flying politicians, diplomats and the ultra rich out of the area. So unless you're a cabinet minister, or you have $100million to throw at the pilot, you wont be going anywhere. Even if, by some amazing stroke of luck, you manage to build an airplane out of cardboard and take off from the top of your HDB block, I'm quite sure your plane will be shot down because there's no way out of Singapore without crossing Malaysian or Indonesian airspace. And everyone knows that should Singapore go to war, it would probably be with those two countries.
That said, , I dont think anyone will be flying out of the country except the occasional hero who plans on infiltrating paya lebar or tengah airbase, hijacking a fighter jet, and learning to fly it instantly.
option 2: SAILING OUT
In wartime, the seas will probably be blockaded by the navy to prevent any amphibious invasion of the island. Civillian vessels will probably be used by the navy for logistical purposes eg. transport or hospital ships. Ship owners and crews would be the first to sail away if they hear of a war. And I really doubt the ability of an average person to swim to australia, india or thailand. Perhaps some might be innovative, and decide to row a bathtub. But I dont think the bathtub will be getting very far in the indian ocean or south china sea.
option 3: DRIVING/WALKING OUT
Most feasible option. Just walk/drive straight into the heart of enemy territory. Self explanatory.
Originally posted by HyperionDCZ:Personally, I have absolutely no interest in fighting a war.
However, i've given it enough thought to realise that should Singapore go to war, the option of 'running away', which most of us take for granted, barely exists.
let's hypothesize.
option 1: FLYING OUT
For the ignorant, airports are key strategic installations that are usually very very high up on the target list for obvious reasons (go figure). Should a war break out, its very likely that changi airport will be one of the first places to be obliterated by enemy airstrikes or shellfire. Even if the airport is miraculously spared complete destruction, foreign airlines would be the first to fly the hell away, evacuating their own citizens, NOT desperate Singaporeans. Local airlines would clearly be grounded because SIA = government, and the government is never going to let AWOL SAF personnel fly off on its krisflyer+inflight entertainment+singapore girl aircraft. Those planes which are not grounded will be flying politicians, diplomats and the ultra rich out of the area. So unless you're a cabinet minister, or you have $100million to throw at the pilot, you wont be going anywhere. Even if, by some amazing stroke of luck, you manage to build an airplane out of cardboard and take off from the top of your HDB block, I'm quite sure your plane will be shot down because there's no way out of Singapore without crossing Malaysian or Indonesian airspace. And everyone knows that should Singapore go to war, it would probably be with those two countries.
That said, , I dont think anyone will be flying out of the country except the occasional hero who plans on infiltrating paya lebar or tengah airbase, hijacking a fighter jet, and learning to fly it instantly.
option 2: SAILING OUT
In wartime, the seas will probably be blockaded by the navy to prevent any amphibious invasion of the island. Civillian vessels will probably be used by the navy for logistical purposes eg. transport or hospital ships. Ship owners and crews would be the first to sail away if they hear of a war. And I really doubt the ability of an average person to swim to australia, india or thailand. Perhaps some might be innovative, and decide to row a bathtub. But I dont think the bathtub will be getting very far in the indian ocean or south china sea.
option 3: DRIVING/WALKING OUT
Most feasible option. Just walk/drive straight into the heart of enemy territory. Self explanatory.
He speaks true.
Why is everybody talking about fleeing, losing and dying?!?
If there's a WAR, we will sure WIN la.
Look at our HISTORY. After all, WAR is about MONEY (or the lackof). And MONEY, we have aplenty stored in SG and elsewhere.
Moreover, we have our superior firepower and technology.
Please la, any combat soldier worth his salt will know that the WAR will never be fought on our soil. We will move our toys and PLAY on somebody's else playground.
In any event, we are THINKING soldiers, not FIGHTING soldiers. And we will probably WIN the WAR even without fighting. JUST PAY AND PAY and we will WIN the WAR!!!
Originally posted by WHISKEYman:Why is everybody talking about fleeing, losing and dying?!?
If there's a WAR, we will sure WIN la.
Look at our HISTORY. After all, WAR is about MONEY (or the lackof). And MONEY, we have aplenty stored in SG and elsewhere.
Moreover, we have our superior firepower and technology.
Please la, any combat soldier worth his salt will know that the WAR will never be fought on our soil. We will move our toys and PLAY on somebody's else playground.
In any event, we are THINKING soldiers, not FIGHTING soldiers. And we will probably WIN the WAR even without fighting. JUST PAY AND PAY and we will WIN the WAR!!!
Will we even have the chance to move our troops to foreign soil in the 1st place? Don't be naive. Before a war is declared there are bounds to be signs leading up to them. During which enemies would already be on alert. So how to move to foreign soil?
And what history? Since when have we won a war?
Superior firepower and technology? Do we even know what technology our enemy are having? So we are thinking soldiers? And enemies are not? Are we arrogant enough to claim enemies are dumber and has inferior weapons than us?
If whiskeyman is just joking, which i believe he is judging by his last statement of "pay and pay", then im just here to remind ourselves that any threat is real. No amount of training or money or technology can make up the fact that we small thus vulnerable.
Originally posted by hamidisaidi:Will we even have the chance to move our troops to foreign soil in the 1st place? Don't be naive. Before a war is declared there are bounds to be signs leading up to them. During which enemies would already be on alert. So how to move to foreign soil?
And what history? Since when have we won a war?
Superior firepower and technology? Do we even know what technology our enemy are having? So we are thinking soldiers? And enemies are not? Are we arrogant enough to claim enemies are dumber and has inferior weapons than us?
I will disagree strongly with your assertion that we are ignorant of the threats that we face.
Let me just say, our doctrine is never about fighting a war in Singapore. You should read up on our strategic concerns and how we manage them. Search, and you can find them in the public domain.
;)
Originally posted by hamidisaidi:Will we even have the chance to move our troops to foreign soil in the 1st place? Don't be naive. Before a war is declared there are bounds to be signs leading up to them. During which enemies would already be on alert. So how to move to foreign soil?
And what history? Since when have we won a war?
Superior firepower and technology? Do we even know what technology our enemy are having? So we are thinking soldiers? And enemies are not? Are we arrogant enough to claim enemies are dumber and has inferior weapons than us?
i agree that if war is upon us, signs of movement by enemy troops would have been spotted
that is why N.S is still done in Tekong where trees and jungles are plenty; not like urban singapore.
frankly, to claim superiority in terms of military might may sound arrogant to you but in fact, we actually do "know" what our neighbouring countries' strength and weakness in their military. <In times of peace, prepare for war> Sun Zi's Art of War. we do know we are better cos' if Malaysia or Indonesia have a new toy, we will probably buy a dozen against it.
end of the day; summary if war breaks out in Singapore...
squat behind shelter, suck thumb and fire your M16/ SAR 21... after sucking thumb, reach out for grenade and throw after pulling out safety pin with tongue. you can also reach out for your comrades grenades and help him throw if he's busy... that's what friends are for.
Originally posted by novelltie:i agree that if war is upon us, signs of movement by enemy troops would have been spotted, that is why N.S is still done in Tekong where trees and jungles are plenty; not like urban singapore.
frankly, to claim superiority in terms of military might may sound arrogant to you but in fact, we actually do "know" what our neighbouring countries' strength and weakness in their military. <In times of peace, prepare for war> Sun Zi's Art of War. we do know we are better cos' if Malaysia or Indonesia have a new toy, we will probably buy a dozen against it.
Originally posted by Acidshuriken:
why the tension in 2003-2004?
Dr. M and the water issue...
To answer TS question.
I think every citizen soldier will have to made a personal justification to carry that SAR 21, and some will just simply follows.....but I believe most of us will put our family and friends first.
As much as for the last 40 years govt is trying to "Built Nationhood" but we have not seriously have to go all the way out to justify our "Nationhood". The threat of terrorist may have push our mind set and SAF further to a more aggressive mode.
i know the question of experience will eventually Pop up in this Thread.....as aways.....: ) But i think if an event similar to Northstar happen to SG, I think Singapore will growth up overnight. It will be a vertical experience.
Originally posted by Arapahoe:To answer TS question.
I think every citizen soldier will have to made a personal justification to carry that SAR 21, and some will just simply follows.....but I believe most of us will put our family and friends first.
As much as for the last 40 years govt is trying to "Built Nationhood" but we have not seriously have to go all the way out to justify our "Nationhood". The threat of terrorist may have push our mind set and SAF further to a more aggressive mode.
i know the question of experience will eventually Pop up in this Thread.....as aways.....: ) But i think if an event similar to Northstar happen to SG, I think Singapore will growth up overnight. It will be a vertical experience.
true, only in real adversities would we stand together to face the common enemy.
May I remind people that certain information is sensitive, please watch what you post. Thanks.
Originally posted by hamidisaidi:Will we even have the chance to move our troops to foreign soil in the 1st place? Don't be naive. Before a war is declared there are bounds to be signs leading up to them. During which enemies would already be on alert. So how to move to foreign soil?
And what history? Since when have we won a war?
Superior firepower and technology? Do we even know what technology our enemy are having? So we are thinking soldiers? And enemies are not? Are we arrogant enough to claim enemies are dumber and has inferior weapons than us?
dude, I'm not here to discuss the grand details on how to fight on foreign soil. I also did not say it would be an easy feat to do so. And certainly I wasn't talking about our foot soldiers setting up shops on foreign soil and having pinics.
It is true that no amount of money or modern technology will change the fact that we are a small island. However, all that I was alluding to was the possibility of enlarging our fightinig zone beyond the physical limitations of our tiny island. And superior technology, firepower, equipment and money will allow us to do so!
For the HISTORY bits, I was referring to our WORLD HISTORY. Dude, I know we have not fought a WAR....
I hope I am correct about the firepower and technology part. After all, we spent quite alot of our taxpayers' money on defence. The point is not about arrogance; it's about combat readiness and patroitism. No point having all the best toys but the heart is not there. This is just my personal view.
Singapore, I stand by you!
Originally posted by Suffocate:Read so many people writting that when Singapore is in a war they will not fight for Singapore but will buy a air ticket and quickly leave Singapore.
Hmm. When there is a war, you think the government will still let you buy air ticket to get out of Singapore meh? I think the government will ban all flights out of Singapore and will probably ban all ships and trains from leaving Singapore too.
that's expected lah, bro....which is why since we cannot escape when war comes, at least we can be traitors if really needed. although some may argue it's country before family and family before self, for me, it is family before self and self before country.
it's really not worth it to die for PAP or anything.
those who think it's heroic to die for country must have watched too much wartime hollywood shows liao, where those war guys get honored and treated like gods.
nowadays, who cares about Lim Bo Seng? in the minds of many singaporeans nowadays, the kind of guys in their mind are Michael Jackson, FireIce (for some SGF guys here), Jay Chou, Fei Lun Hai etc.
SAF doesn't know what it's doing.
according to it, it's purpose is to "deter threats from singapore".
but deter also got limit......if the invaders keep attacking non-stop, how we can still keep on deterring and guarding? somemore, because SG is so tiny, the invaders can just focus all their country's efforts into attacking a SINGLE key point and the country will collapse liao.
just think about the above paragraph in bold and tell me if it makes sense.
one thing Mr. Lee Kill You never understood, and will never ever understand, is that in life, people cannot be forced to do things against their will.
even if they physically appears willing, their soul is not willing and they are always finding chances not to do it.
Originally posted by novelltie:i agree that if war is upon us, signs of movement by enemy troops would have been spotted
that is why N.S is still done in Tekong where trees and jungles are plenty; not like urban singapore.
frankly, to claim superiority in terms of military might may sound arrogant to you but in fact, we actually do "know" what our neighbouring countries' strength and weakness in their military. <In times of peace, prepare for war> Sun Zi's Art of War. we do know we are better cos' if Malaysia or Indonesia have a new toy, we will probably buy a dozen against it.
Why are you so sure we know what they have? Is it because SAF says so or because we are richer than our neighbours?
Even if we have better technology or weapons, even with inferior weapons bombarding our small island, how do you think we will be able to cope?
PS to LaserLordz - when did i say we are ignorant to the threats we face?
I am working for the SAF (not a soldier) and although i cannot make a general statement, but i see in my daily encounters 80% of the officers are very disorganised in their planning and management. But that's besides the point....
All i am saying her is we can definitely fight a good battle but i doubt we will win the war.
Whatever it is, i am standing by my belief and you have the right to stand by yours. I am not saying we cannot win a war, but we will most probably lose.
Originally posted by hamidisaidi:Why are you so sure we know what they have? Is it because SAF says so or because we are richer than our neighbours?
Even if we have better technology or weapons, even with inferior weapons bombarding our small island, how do you think we will be able to cope?
PS to LaserLordz - when did i say we are ignorant to the threats we face?
I am working for the SAF (not a soldier) and although i cannot make a general statement, but i see in my daily encounters 80% of the officers are very disorganised in their planning and management. But that's besides the point....
All i am saying her is we can definitely fight a good battle but i doubt we will win the war.
Whatever it is, i am standing by my belief and you have the right to stand by yours. I am not saying we cannot win a war, but we will most probably lose.
yeah true... we might not win but we can die trying...
i think the philosophy behind our strategy would be;
"you want to conquer us, sure you can, you probably will but at what cost? is it worth killing 4 million of us at the expense of 8 million of your countrymen? if your equation is yes, then sure, bring it on..."
i've never said we will win any war, what i'm saying is, "is the idiot running the country stupid enough to raze us to the grounds at such a high cost? every soldier's death will cause a backlash from the public (maybe except North Korea). look at USA, people shouts, "bring our men home"... yes they are putting more men into Afganisten but people are not happy... China's people are very vocal too, the "Tian An Men" incident showed that if they are not happy, they will go to the streets... so with all these consideration, which idiot will risk hitting Singapore and accepting punches back? we'll see...
becareful of the OSA dude...
Talk about the enemy using 8 million people to kill our 4 million people. And our 4 million people probably one quarter of it are foreigners who will all run back to their country when there is a war. Minus the old and the majority of the spoilt women in singapore who do not know how to fight only know how to everyday in the office bitch and gossip and backstab others, you are probably left with only about 2 million people to defend singapore.
You overestimated the SAF and underestimated the enemy. The enemy probably need only 18 000 men to kill our 2 million people.
Talking about modern technology, I am sure other countries such as Malaysia and Indonesia also have it. They maybe poor but every country knows that no matter how poor they are they will still need to spend lots of money on defence. Even korea is also not a rich country but that did not stop them from building and firing missiles
Originally posted by snk86:FDS?
i for one believe that if singapore has to rely on its infantry to defend we're already doomed because that would mean that the enemies is already on our soil only applicable to defense.
is our ihawks that backdated especially comparing our saf equipments with our nearest threats? i dont think so. in any case, air artillery is a last resort, the first line of air defence is our fighter jets and second the navy destroyers.