marcteng:I didn't say that there was no reason that SAF pays its soldiers very well. I said that SAF pays its soldiers very well. Another thing: wear uniform is not something that is a 'minus' point for people who love the military. They love it. I personally hear at least 5 or 10 regular officers and specs say its one of the many things they enjoy about it and not having to think of what to wear.
A SAFOS I know who was to do a stint in the civil service ministry and do civil service courses for his AO secondment was heard lamenting how it's so irritating now he has to go buy work shirts now for the first time in his life. and how its great and fuss free to not have to fuss with what to wear everyday for work.
The regulars i spoke to in my NS days, specs and officers alike genuinely enjoy life in the army and they say they feel like fathers to the boys.The pay to compete with the pay the person can get outside of SAF with the same set of qualifications and competency is to make up for the long days away from home and the chiong-sua..its not fun to be away and having to be operationally on stand by for your country 24-7, working in the jungle for 9 days in a row..but there are men among them who genuinely love it, they love command, and they enjoy military leadership and commanding their men in the field.
This is a general statement, not directed to you. I read it before it a blog by mr miyagi. The army is the cup of tea of some people's. Don't be sour if it's not yours.
Originally posted by insidestory:They have no 'real' war experience, as long as they are good enough to fulfil what SAF is supposed to do- be too formidable for enemies to consider attacking us.
The one day Singapore is attacked and SAF is mobilised to fight off the attackers, is the day you will have this 'real' war experience of our generals you keep harping about.
Do you realise the irony of this? you're using the peace you enjoy because of them, against them to say they have hence, no 'real' war experience because SAF is doing what it's supposed to do. I'd love to see all of you except singmarine take up your SAR 21 and fight along for Singapore when the day comes, so that you can talk about the general's 'real' war experience, the one day if SAF fails to do its job.
Also, an ATEC mission is as good as it gets for most countries. And for the officers, it is war to them. It's their war against the other commanders.
Did you read my earlier post......
I have already mention that "If" there is a War in SG. There will be a vertical adjustment those who made it Stayed and those who don't will drop out.
I believe when the comparision was made about the Gulf war although most command came from the Pentagon and White house but they have ......experience General who have battlefield experience......to be advising the US President.
Like i said there is peace time vs war time.
erm singmarine..try to edit some posts u made...quite sensitive info
Originally posted by Master -_-:erm singmarine..try to edit some posts u made...quite sensitive info
No lah, most of it is now open source. ADF is also now so mainstream the whole world knows without us actually revealing our orbat.
Originally posted by Master -_-:erm singmarine..try to edit some posts u made...quite sensitive info
hey SingMarine, i noticed you just edit one of your posts about some 1997 - 1998 crisis and some Palembang thing.
anyone can roughly tell me what happened during that time? as far as i know, there was no crisis during 1997 - 1999 period and it was very peaceful (that time, i was still in sec school).
Originally posted by Man!x:No lah, most of it is now open source. ADF is also now so mainstream the whole world knows without us actually revealing our orbat. As long its not units with only digits as a name. then its alright
no la..if im an agressor, i can know how much firepower an ADF soldier would bring all by reading this thread..if u get wat i mean...
Originally posted by Nikar 3:hey SingMarine, i noticed you just edit one of your posts about some 1997 - 1998 crisis and some Palembang thing.
anyone can roughly tell me what happened during that time? as far as i know, there was no crisis during 1997 - 1999 period and it was very peaceful (that time, i was still in sec school).
Originally posted by Singmarine:
I think you are missing the point here.....i believe forumners brought up the topics on experience commanders prescisely what you mention. What happen after the bullet start flying. lives are involved.
How decision are made during stress time, it is not just about keeping cool but dealing with emotion. Field officers in iraq openly talks about how they have to disloged their own man because of the nature of the injuries. Deal with the emotion dead and lead..... And Win.
Nobody is saying that we are War Hawk....but past decade the frequent change of command seem more like a career path. Thats what prom the consistant response from readers time to time. And I think Readers will always bring this topics up again and again. This will not be the End. It is not attacking any individual here.
Palembang is the SIlkair MI185 crash. As for the other incident, you will have to surmise...
Originally posted by Man!x:
er.......the "other incident"......the more i see this, the more curious i am and now i keep thinking about it cannot sleep tonight......
can someone pls PM me and tell me about it? i just want to roughly know what event happen, that's all.
Singapore was kicked out of Malaysia on 9 August 1965 - and the first priority then was not the economy, social welfare, public housing, education, public health, trade unionism, or domestic politics.
It was all about Defense, Defense and Defense - the defense of the PAP leadership in Singapore.
By Christmas Eve of 1965, the intense "love affair" between Israel and Singapore began with the arrival of the first ‘Mexicans’ of SAF - the code name given to the first batch of Israelis arriving into Singapore to help with the creation of the SAF.
The basis of this frantic build-up was rumoured around the events that Tunku Abdul Rahman - the first PM of Malaysia, who worked with LKY to give birth to Malaysia - had resulted in failed in his efforts to send two batalions of the Royal Malay Regiment into Singapore to arrest the entire Singapore State Cabinet.
Somehow word got to the Singapore Cabinet that a night swoop would be conducted against the political leadership of Singapore, which led to the Singapore cabinet making an appeal to the British PM Harold Wilson then for help to block this unconstitutional arrest of a state government.
The Royal Commandos was then in Singapore and was said to have been rushed to the Causeway to prevent the crossing by any Malaysian Army into Singapore.
It was fortunate that the Royal Commandos was in Singapore as part of the Commonwealth Force opposing Indonesia's Konfrontasi under President Sukarno - (the father of Megawati).
Having failed to arrest the Singapore State Cabinet after more then two years of political acrimony since Malaysia was formed on 31 August 1963, and after serious racial riots that broke out between the Malays and Chinese population in Singapore and Kuala Lumpur - there was no othe alternative for the Tunku except to expel Singapore from Malaysia.
This little know event was finally confirmed when Harold Wilson was invited as a UK private citizen to attend Singapore's National Day celebration, and full state honors was accorded to him as if he was still a Head of State.
In a State Banquet given in honor of Harold Wilson, it was very unusual for LKY to speak of the huge debt owed to Harold Wilson that was attributed for his actions in phasing out the troop withdrawal and not leaving "Singapore's economy" in the lurch.
The failed military action by the Tunku was not mentioned.
This experience in 1965 probably provide us an insight to the thinking amongst the PAP Leadership in the Singapore Government towards the Singapore Malay community involvement in the SAF.
LKY had set the tone in the Ministry of Defense attitude towards the Singapore Malay community, in his infamous speech made in 1999:
Originally posted by Nikar 3:come on, what's the difference?! we all know long ago that all generals in SAF = PAPER GENERALS
MUTTON BERIYANI?
Originally posted by Arapahoe:I think you are missing the point here.....i believe forumners brought up the topics on experience commanders prescisely what you mention. What happen after the bullet start flying. lives are involved.
How decision are made during stress time, it is not just about keeping cool but dealing with emotion. Field officers in iraq openly talks about how they have to disloged their own man because of the nature of the injuries. Deal with the emotion dead and lead..... And Win.
Nobody is saying that we are War Hawk....but past decade the frequent change of command seem more like a career path. Thats what prom the consistant response from readers time to time. And I think Readers will always bring this topics up again and again. This will not be the End. It is not attacking any individual here.
The US army whose field officers dealt with what you said in Iraq, has a different cause of being from the SAF. Singapore never meant to send its boys to die for the causes of other countries. The SAF defends the island by ensuring its too formidable a consideration for the countries around her to consider attacking her, this SAF does by preparing itself for that eventuality, but as long as it does its job well, the enemies will be intimidated enough not to attack her. The SAF will NOT send its boys like you to die for other countries just to garner the 'real' war experience for its generals you talk about to do the job its supposed to do well. The US has also never been attacked on its soil save for 9-11 and Pearl Habour, in which no US military action has been deployed on US soil. They fought back on other people's soils.
One day, if Singapore was ever attacked the way US was attacked on its soil in 9-11, right in the heart of Raffles Place, she will indeed deploy the SAF to do what the SAF is meant to do as she has promised
If Singapore is attacked, she will fight back. Until she is, because the SAF is doing its job well, she will not sacrifice its boys for the causes of other countries.
SAF practises a quick renewal of leadership to keep the organisation nimble and dynamic. The leadership is what determines the outcome and output of the organisation. When you use someone's vision for too long, you are stuck in a rut with no exposure to other ideas. of cos the downside of this is the sometimes schizophrenic-like change in policies. This is something that all organisational set-ups have to deal with. Not only the SAF, the entire civil service believes in retiring its leaders early. The permanent secretaries have a mandatory retirement based on a charted career in which they retire in their mid 40s.
Originally posted by insidestory:The US army whose field officers dealt with what you said in Iraq, has a different cause of being from the SAF. Singapore never meant to send its boys to die for the causes of other countries. The SAF defends the island by ensuring its too formidable a consideration for the countries around her to consider attacking her, this SAF does by preparing itself for that eventuality, but as long as it does its job well, the enemies will be intimidated enough not to attack her. The SAF will NOT send its boys like you to die for other countries just to garner the 'real' war experience for its generals you talk about to do the job its supposed to do well. The US has also never been attacked on its soil save for 9-11 and Pearl Habour, in which no US military action has been deployed on US soil. They fought back on other people's soils.
One day, if Singapore was ever attacked the way US was attacked on its soil in 9-11, right in the heart of Raffles Place, she will indeed deploy the SAF to do what the SAF is meant to do as she has promised
If Singapore is attacked, she will fight back. Until she is, because the SAF is doing its job well, she will not sacrifice its boys for the causes of other countries.
SAF practises a quick renewal of leadership to keep the organisation nimble and dynamic. The leadership is what determines the outcome and output of the organisation. When you use someone's vision for too long, you are stuck in a rut with no exposure to other ideas. of cos the downside of this is the sometimes schizophrenic-like change in policies. This is something that all organisational set-ups have to deal with. Not only the SAF, the entire civil service believes in retiring its leaders early. The permanent secretaries have a mandatory retirement based on a charted career in which they retire in their mid 40s.
My former CO is the current 9th Division Commander. He was on SAF scholarship and on a fast tracked career path. Looks short & specky, very scholarly like. Look more like a white-collar manager than a soldier. He dun look garang at all.
But believe me, he was trained in the Indonesia army & fluent in Bahasa Indonesian. He is a very tough & fierce person who excel in the Staff Command course. He never show mercy in his plan execution. Very brilliant guy & he has served in several out of singapore mission before. He knows everyone in the battalion and you will fear when u speak to him.
He is a typical "Paper" general which forumers would associate with.
No wonder this farmer general is commander of 6th Div, the worst and least important division.
Originally posted by Singmarine:
My former CO is the current 9th Division Commander. He was on SAF scholarship and on a fast tracked career path. Looks short & specky, very scholarly like. Look more like a white-collar manager than a soldier. He dun look garang at all. But believe me, he was trained in the Indonesia army & fluent in Bahasa Indonesian. He is a very tough & fierce person who excel in the Staff Command course. He never show mercy in his plan execution. Very brilliant guy & he has served in several out of singapore mission before. He knows everyone in the battalion and you will fear when u speak to him. He is a typical "Paper" general which forumers would associate with.
You're talking about 9th Div commander BG Chan Chun Sing, a president's scholar.
He is brilliant like other scholar generals, but he is very much a man on the ground. Unlike other SAF commanders who don't want to hear you give negative feedback about the organisation, he doesn't mince his words, and makes no bones about what he feels SAF should improve on. I hear him speak once in a speech he gave out to select SAF commanders, he says out point blank what he feels SAF should improve on, warts and all, he'd spell it out. Unfortunately it will be SAF's loss soon to come, I heard rumours that he's being courted for political office by bigger guys up there, and may leave the force earlier.
Otherwise, he is the prime candidate for the next Chief of Army, contending with Tan Chuan Jin.
Originally posted by insidestory:No wonder this farmer general is commander of 6th Div, the worst and least important division.
ah ... okie .... I see ......
ermm .... so you are commander of which division ? .....ikea armchair division ? ....or is it courts ? ....
of course lar pay so much
can dun be brilliant?
then do wat,
go play golf during office hours?
Originally posted by Singmarine:
My former CO is the current 9th Division Commander. He was on SAF scholarship and on a fast tracked career path. Looks short & specky, very scholarly like. Look more like a white-collar manager than a soldier. He dun look garang at all. But believe me, he was trained in the Indonesia army & fluent in Bahasa Indonesian. He is a very tough & fierce person who excel in the Staff Command course. He never show mercy in his plan execution. Very brilliant guy & he has served in several out of singapore mission before. He knows everyone in the battalion and you will fear when u speak to him. He is a typical "Paper" general which forumers would associate with.
Another BG sour grape soldiers may like to call paper general is BG Wong Ann Chai, former CAO. Best armour unit, REDCON 1 in ATEC, he swept them all. He's also an SAFOS and presidents scholar. Was up for COA position against Neo Kian Hong and BG Bernard Tan.
It was no secret that he and BG Tan left the SAF when she gave the COA post to Neo Kian Hong. Same for BG Tan. These kind of people, the high flier, always no.1 type, cannot stomach it if they feel someone less deserving of something than them gets what they don't deserve.
REDCON 2A is actually quite common for these people. Its REDCON 1 that is exceptional. Which was what BG Wong achieved.
Originally posted by insidestory:You're talking about 9th Div commander BG Chan Chun Sing, a president's scholar.
He is brilliant like other scholar generals, but he is very much a man on the ground. Unlike other SAF commanders who don't want to hear you give negative feedback about the organisation, he doesn't mince his words, and makes no bones about what he feels SAF should improve on. I hear him speak once in a speech he gave out to select SAF commanders, he says out point blank what he feels SAF should improve on, warts and all, he'd spell it out. Unfortunately it will be SAF's loss soon to come, I heard rumours that he's being courted for political office by bigger guys up there, and may leave the force earlier.
Otherwise, he is the prime candidate for the next Chief of Army, contending with Tan Chuan Jin.