Some queries
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I told u my perspective changed when I read the NT. He is no longer a vengeful GOD.
U do not believe in the OT ? U can pick and choose the relevant chapters u like to believe, buffet style ? U tink god change itself for the better during the times ? Then how can god be perfect, omnipotent, all-knowing etc ? In case u do not know, u should be praying to god, not to jesus. If u do not believe in any part of all the 66 books, then u should consider whether u should continue to be in tis religion or not. Why ? It is because the scrioture r "god inspired" and written by a perfect all-knowing god. If it turn out u do not believe in a few of the practices, then it just means the whole scripture is just man made, and man made errors. If tat is the case then then is nothing holy or divine in the scripture anymore. Then why should u believe in writing written by people 2000 years ago ? -
I think u do have some bible knowledge, and in fact better than me who has just began to start reading the bible seriously. I believed if u read more closely, it is clear that Jesus came to establish a new convenant for man with his father so that all of us can be saved. If the Lord has not established the new convenant, none of us could get saved as it is impossible for us to keep all the commandments.
As I said before, do they need version 2 to replace version 1 ? I thought there should be unity for scriptures, not a totally different view on the same issue. If u find the teaching in version 2 different to version 1, then it just means u have spotted a biblical contradiction. And from your tone, u suggested tat the people from moses to jesus time deserves the treatment of being stoned to death and cutting off their hand.
Just a question. Since u find so many contadictions, why don't u find it more logical to reject everything than to force yourself to accept a few tat u feel seems to be more right ? In case u do not know, u have deviate from the true christian religion, but have started your own religion by choosing the part u feel like believing. U might as well choose part of scriptures from the buddhist or taoist to complement the ones from NT while u r at it. -
BTW maybe u can try to read the reply by fandango or the suppose inerrancy of the scriptures.
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Stupidissmart, as I have told u before, the OT is good as it tells you abt the laws. Nobody is rejecting the OT. But what Jesus came to establish was to do away with those laws as it was impossible to keep all of them due to our sinful nature. The old laws actually make me appreciate what I received in the new covenant.Originally posted by stupidissmart:U do not believe in the OT ? U can pick and choose the relevant chapters u like to believe, buffet style ? U tink god change itself for the better during the times ? Then how can god be perfect, omnipotent, all-knowing etc ? In case u do not know, u should be praying to god, not to jesus. If u do not believe in any part of all the 66 books, then u should consider whether u should continue to be in tis religion or not. Why ? It is because the scrioture r "god inspired" and written by a perfect all-knowing god. If it turn out u do not believe in a few of the practices, then it just means the whole scripture is just man made, and man made errors. If tat is the case then then is nothing holy or divine in the scripture anymore. Then why should u believe in writing written by people 2000 years ago ?
Christians believed in one Triune God (GOD/Jesus/Holy Ghost); Jesus is GOD, GOD is Jesus. Very hard to explain to u this concept. Mebbe u try looking up while u surf?
When I was in sec sch, I also found parts of the bible contraditary. However, when I read closely now, I found it actually complement each other. Like the old laws and the concept of grace, without the laws there would not be grace; the laws made u understand why grace was given to people so that u can be saved. -
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U are right to have doubts in the bible as I have last time. When u do not have doubts u will not want to read more and find out abt the truth. I once rejected HIM before as I feel everything is wrong, but somehow I was drawn back to him. Very hard to express in words, but GOD works his own mysterious ways. It may be cliche but I actually find more peace in my heart now that my doubts are settled.Originally posted by stupidissmart:As I said before, do they need version 2 to replace version 1 ? I thought there should be unity for scriptures, not a totally different view on the same issue. If u find the teaching in version 2 different to version 1, then it just means u have spotted a biblical contradiction. And from your tone, u suggested tat the people from moses to jesus time deserves the treatment of being stoned to death and cutting off their hand.
Just a question. Since u find so many contadictions, why don't u find it more logical to reject everything than to force yourself to accept a few tat u feel seems to be more right ? In case u do not know, u have deviate from the true christian religion, but have started your own religion by choosing the part u feel like believing. U might as well choose part of scriptures from the buddhist or taoist to complement the ones from NT while u r at it.
As I have said in my earlier post, nobody rejects the OT. We do not read parts of the bible selectively, but rather, find reasons and links between what was said in the books. What was mentioned in the NT actually complements and complete the OT. That's why I can tell u there is no contradiction in the bible (no erranency) Also, the bible was not completed in just one period but it's being done over a period of time. There is no version 1 or 2 as what u have said. We only believed in one completed bible which is the inspired word from GOD.
http://www.comereason.org/bibl_cntr/default.asp
is a good link to clear ur doubts. Another way is to attend a church which teaches the word closely from the bible.
Choosing buddhist or taoist scriptures to complement the bible? No...this would not be the right thing to do. -
dats own privacy, why should they let the church know, i got a personal view that every church is a different religion in itself although they all belong to the same one religion.Originally posted by FireIce:wah....tt day u mentioned "potential gf"......no no more liao eh?
(for this, u might wanna PM me so as not to spoil the discussion)
yah lah...depends on the church....
is there any satisfactory ans in the first place?
some churches dun allow but there are ppl who still do it, but does not admit.....and there are ppl who dun mind admitting cos they think it's a physical release, not a spiritual betrayal.....
on this topic, i jus recalled my fren telling me tt got this X-tian association tt requires members to report the lumber of times they had sex with their spouse.................... -
Stupidissmart, as I have told u before, the OT is good as it tells you abt the laws. Nobody is rejecting the OT. But what Jesus came to establish was to do away with those laws as it was impossible to keep all of them due to our sinful nature. The old laws actually make me appreciate what I received in the new covenant.
Now don't u think something is funny here... first they tell u they made these laws then they say to do away with it all. Doesn't wat he do later contradict his actions before ? Why doesn't he just tell us the new laws in the first place ? Why make so many people suffer for so much time before telling them it is futile to follow the laws he set himself ? Wat is the rationale for doing tat ?Christians believed in one Triune God (GOD/Jesus/Holy Ghost); Jesus is GOD, GOD is Jesus. Very hard to explain to u this concept. Mebbe u try looking up while u surf?
The trinity heh. Tat is something very contradictory among here too since they suggest god is one, then suggest it actually meant multiple objects (+holy spirits) then they say jesus is the son of god, which make it strange since no one can be a son of himself. Jesus is sacrfice because god want it to be so. So how can god sarifice god because god want it to be so ? When jesus is baptised , god is pleased of jesus actions. How can god be pleased of his own action to commemorate god himself ? Can't u see throughout NT they implied both god and jesus r different.When I was in sec sch, I also found parts of the bible contraditary. However, when I read closely now, I found it actually complement each other. Like the old laws and the concept of grace, without the laws there would not be grace; the laws made u understand why grace was given to people so that u can be saved.
Lets simplify the scenario. Someone name god throw u into a dungeon tat is not possible for men to live well. After many years, they set u into a slightly better dungeon. So when u see an upgrade u actually praise god for showing grace ? Instead of condemning his action for giving darkness to men for many centuries by irresponsible and strict laws, u actually priase him for correction ? From my viewpoint, it just means tat he realise he made a mistake and try to rectify it. Wat perfectness can tat be ? People living centuries ago r also human, so we left use them as examples or guinea pigs for the later people ?U are right to have doubts in the bible as I have last time. When u do not have doubts u will not want to read more and find out abt the truth. I once rejected HIM before as I feel everything is wrong, but somehow I was drawn back to him. Very hard to express in words, but GOD works his own mysterious ways. It may be cliche but I actually find more peace in my heart now that my doubts are settled.
Everything is still wrong. his mysterious way is probably by using a girl...
Wat doubt have been settledAs I have said in my earlier post, nobody rejects the OT. We do not read parts of the bible selectively, but rather, find reasons and links between what was said in the books. What was mentioned in the NT actually complements and complete the OT. That's why I can tell u there is no contradiction in the bible (no erranency) Also, the bible was not completed in just one period but it's being done over a period of time. There is no version 1 or 2 as what u have said. We only believed in one completed bible which is the inspired word from GOD.
Is it ? it complement ? How ? I thought u yourself give some example of conflict between the 2 ? OT says a woman who commit adultery has to be stoned while the NT says we do not have to. Isn't tat a conflict here ?
u yourself even write tisOld Covenant:
Isn't tat a difference of its own ?
Placed upon stone
Based on the law
Must be taught
Legal relationship with GOD
New Covenant:
Placed upon people's heart
Based on desire to love and serve God
known by all
Personal relationship with GOD“By calling this covenant `new,' he has made the first one obsolete.... He sets aside the first to establish the second” (Heb. 8:13; 10:9).
The second one just make OT "obsolete" isn't it ? I thought u already say they r obsolete thus irrelevant, and tat makes everythign under it not to be taken seriously. Does tis complement each other ? Nope ! From tat statement, it is meant to be a replacement ! OT tells u u must follow the rules seriously without question and without it possible of being changed. Now tis statement tell u to forget about everything written on it. How can tis ever be complementary ? -
I have posted many conflicts of bible before. If u feel tat it is completed, then read tis and explains to me
Shall we kill ?
Exodus 20:13 "Thou shalt not kill."
Leviticus 24:17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death."
vs.
Exodus 32:27 "Thus sayeth the Lord God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, . . . and slay every man his brother, . . . companion, . . . neighbor."
I Samuel 6:19 " . . . and the people lamented because the Lord had smitten many of the people with a great slaughter."
I Samuel 15:2,3,7,8 "Thus saith the Lord . . . Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass. . . . And Saul smote the Amalekites . . . and utterly destroyed all the people with the edge of the sword."
Numbers 15:36 "And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses."
Hosea 13:16 "they shall fall by the sword: their infants shall be dashed in pieces, and their women with children shall be ripped up."
Should we tell lies?
Exodus 20:16 "Thou shalt not bear false witness."
Proverbs 12:22 "Lying lips are an abomination to the Lord."
vs.
I Kings 22:23 "The Lord hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets, and the Lord hath spoken evil concerning thee."
II Thessalonians 2:11 "And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie."
Shall we make graven images?
Exodus 20:4 "Thou shalt not make unto thee any graven image, or any likeness of anything that is in heaven . . . earth . . . water."
Leviticus 26:1 "Ye shall make ye no idols nor graven image, neither rear you up a standing image, neither shall ye set up any image of stone."
Deuteronomy 27:15 "Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image."
vs.
Exodus 25:18 "And thou shalt make two cherubims of gold, of beaten work shalt thou make them."
I Kings 7:15,16,23,25 "For he [Solomon] cast two pillars of brass . . . and two chapiters of molten brass . . . And he made a molten sea . . . it stood upon twelve oxen . . . [and so on]"
Does God change his mind?
Malachi 3:6 "For I am the Lord; I change not."
Numbers 23:19 "God is not a man, that he should lie; neither the son of man, that he should repent."
Ezekiel 24:14 "I the Lord have spoken it: it shall come to pass, and I will do it; I will not go back, neither will I spare, neither will I repent."
James 1:17 " . . . the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning."
vs.
Exodus 32:14 "And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people."
Genesis 6:6,7 "And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth . . . And the Lord said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth . . . for it repenteth me that I have made him."
Jonah 3:10 ". . . and God repented of the evil, that he had said that he would do unto them; and he did it not."
See also II Kings 20:1-7, Numbers 16:20-35, Numbers 16:44-50.
See Genesis 18:23-33, where Abraham gets God to change his mind about the minimum number of righteous people in Sodom required to avoid destruction, bargaining down from fifty to ten. (An omniscient God must have known that he was playing with Abraham's hopes for mercy--he destroyed the city anyway.)
from
http://ffrf.org/lfif/?t=contra.txt -
When people study the Bible as if it is a Biology text and starts placing them in tables for comparison and not pondering over the whole picture, the main aim is to shoot the Bible of its credibility and perhaps give a hooray "They have got lopp holes..haha"
Well, the Bible is studied by several people and they call it the greatest Book with greatest degree of accuracy and by quoting some Verses vs. Verses thingy..one thinks God is jus being forgetful?
Everything revealed in Scriptures are infallible(not the Pope) and inerrant (not the Pope). The reason why it seems full of errors because the life of the one reading it contains error. The Bible talks about the Word of God being a mirror...when we see ourselves as being dirty in the mirror...some of us choose to have a bath..while some say ..no la...the mirror is unpolished and dirty in the first place.
"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does."
-James 1:22-25
The whole context of the Bible talks about a God, one who is the only true and living. The God here althoughs seemed full of wrath and demanding in the Old Testament do still have a caring and merciful heart. God spared the Egyptians' first born(those who obey His command to smear the lamb's blood on their doorposts during Passover) and He did not simply wipe out mankind like we wipe our dirty tables. In all of His doings, even when it comes to severe Judgments, God do remember mercy.
His primary job is not to exterminate mankind the moment they sin and turn from Him. His wraths and judgments are threats to make people repent. Before every time He sends His punishment....He will send a prophet to speak His words and plead with nthe people to repent. No fire come from heaven without prior warnings. Read for urself.
God will never change. yes...He is same yesterday, today and evermore. But that doesnt mean He is a piece of rock. His holiness, truth and righteous standards and love for justice NEVER change. But He changes His plans at times so that people will come to repentance...He wants as few people dead as much as possible.
So would we prefer Him to NOT CHANGE? even when we tidy up out messed up lives ....His wrath still comes anyway??? Sorry...God is not mad. -
When people study the Bible as if it is a Biology text and starts placing them in tables for comparison and not pondering over the whole picture, the main aim is to shoot the Bible of its credibility and perhaps give a hooray "They have got lopp holes..haha"
Actually I have a question to ask, do u have a problem of reading the bible logically ? I mean should we use reasoning and logics when reading the scriptures or should we just read it, believe everything is true, not challenging or ponder over it, just swallowing the whole content ? If they have loop holes tat cannot be covered, then it just means it really have loop holes and u should then ponder why.Well, the Bible is studied by several people and they call it the greatest Book with greatest degree of accuracy and by quoting some Verses vs. Verses thingy..one thinks God is jus being forgetful?
Sure... all religion says tat too. There r a lot of muslim scholars saying the same for their qurans and buddhist monks telling about their scripture too. But surely not more than one can be right isn't it ?Everything revealed in Scriptures are infallible(not the Pope) and inerrant (not the Pope). The reason why it seems full of errors because the life of the one reading it contains error. The Bible talks about the Word of God being a mirror...when we see ourselves as being dirty in the mirror...some of us choose to have a bath..while some say ..no la...the mirror is unpolished and dirty in the first place.
Yah right... I am sure some of the authors here do not just write rubbish base on their own "dirty inner self". They provide their reasoning for such a stand. If they provide their reasons to why they have doubts, I see no reason to throw it all off just because they r saying something tat is against the scripture. So all the people who says somethign is wrong with the scriptures must have dirty and unpolish side ? Aren't u acting like the emperor in the story of the emperor new clothes ? Claiming those people who says they can't see the clothes r deemed as stupid so no one dare to talk about it ?"Do not merely listen to the word, and so deceive yourselves. Do what it says. Anyone who listens to the word but does not do what it says is like a man who looks at his face in a mirror and, after looking at himself, goes away and immediately forgets what he looks like. But the man who looks intently into the perfect law that gives freedom, and continues to do this, not forgetting what he has heard, but doing it--he will be blessed in what he does."
Anyway this statement is tellign people to perform the deeds as expected of them as christians instead of just knowing they should do it. It does not mean the same way as u describe, those who comment about the scripture r actually a reflection of their self being.
-James 1:22-25The whole context of the Bible talks about a God, one who is the only true and living. The God here althoughs seemed full of wrath and demanding in the Old Testament do still have a caring and merciful heart. God spared the Egyptians' first born(those who obey His command to smear the lamb's blood on their doorposts during Passover) and He did not simply wipe out mankind like we wipe our dirty tables. In all of His doings, even when it comes to severe Judgments, God do remember mercy.
I don't know about your mercy... he kill people who do not obey him, isn't tat bad enough. He surely kill off the egyptians first born who do not smear the blood isn't it ? Do they deserve death in the first place ? Wat sin have they commit tat deserve death ? Let me ask another question. Smearing the blood of lamb for a whole civilisation surely have cost the lives of many sheeps as well. Do they deserve death too ? He did not wipe out mankind like we wipe table ? then how do u explain noah's ark ? He really wipe off civilisation isn't it ? He surely do tat to dinosaurs in the past too. He don't even bother to explain why he wipe them off too. Does he show mercy ? No.His primary job is not to exterminate mankind the moment they sin and turn from Him. His wraths and judgments are threats to make people repent. Before every time He sends His punishment....He will send a prophet to speak His words and plead with nthe people to repent. No fire come from heaven without prior warnings. Read for urself.
Did he give warning to Onan when he die ? Any prophet appear ? Does he warn the other people in Noah's ark ? When he kill Job family, does he give any warnings ? He keep it hush hush and tell noah only isn't it ? Does he warn the egytians when he close the read sea ? He just kill them when he feel like it too. There r many many example of god killing people without any warnings. read for yourself.God will never change. yes...He is same yesterday, today and evermore. But that doesnt mean He is a piece of rock. His holiness, truth and righteous standards and love for justice NEVER change. But He changes His plans at times so that people will come to repentance...He wants as few people dead as much as possible.
Why do u say tat ? If he want as few people dead, don't start death ! He is the one tat invent death ! I thought he is all knowing and omnipotent ? With these 2 powers surely he can do a brillant plan and stick with it throughout.So would we prefer Him to NOT CHANGE? even when we tidy up out messed up lives ....His wrath still comes anyway??? Sorry...God is not mad.
the thing I am saying is, if he is as powerful as the bible describe him, there shouldn't have a reason to change. If he had to change, it just means tat the bible claims of him being perfect, all-knowing and omnipotent is wrong and tat probably means everything u know about him is wrong. he is not human, he won't commit errors so he shouldn't have to do remedy actions or corrections like us tidying out our messed life. If he has to, as i said before, doesn't tat means he is limited like us.
god is not mad... but he is not one with love but one who is very egoistic, violent and love to be in control. -
Upon looking at what u have written, I am glad at least u understood some of the things which I have said (grace vs laws). I am not here to argue with u stupidssmart, but rather just to explain things that u have asked. Nonetheless, I have given my point and hope it can clear some of your doubts, even though there may be very little, at least it is a start.Originally posted by stupidissmart:The second one just make OT "obsolete" isn't it ? I thought u already say they r obsolete thus irrelevant, and tat makes everythign under it not to be taken seriously. Does tis complement each other ? Nope ! From tat statement, it is meant to be a replacement ! OT tells u u must follow the rules seriously without question and without it possible of being changed. Now tis statement tell u to forget about everything written on it. How can tis ever be complementary ?
Hope you find ur answers soon. -
Actually, this is becoming quite pointless again, a repeat of the "saga" of "Do Christians Mastubate" abet with a slight twist.Originally posted by worried99:Upon looking at what u have written, I am glad at least u understood some of the things which I have said (grace vs laws). I am not here to argue with u stupidssmart, but rather just to explain things that u have asked. Nonetheless, I have given my point and hope it can clear some of your doubts, even though there may be very little, at least it is a start.
Hope you find ur answers soon.
In relation to a now-locked topic "Is there a need...", there seem to be a continual beating of Christian doctrines especially by SIS....
I am still waiting anxiously for his not-happening foray into the discussion on other religions... Don't keep me waiting too long.... -
Chin Eng, I never said I am going to talk about other religion in the first place. Why do u keep insisting on me to do the things I do not want nor do I say I will. If u like to bash other religion, do it yourself.
This is an exchange isn't it ? If the things I have said is wrong or inaccurate, u could have easily point it out to me. Why want to lock it away ? To worried, I was hoping u should read with an open heart and see the truth in my messages. Obviously if u feel tat the god described in OT is cruel and unforgiving, u r right. And tat is probably wat god really is. -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Chin Eng, I never said I am going to talk about other religion in the first place. Why do u keep insisting on me to do the things I do not want nor do I say I will. If u like to bash other religion, do it yourself.
This is an exchange isn't it ? If the things I have said is wrong or inaccurate, u could have easily point it out to me. Why want to lock it away ? To worried, I was hoping u should read with an open heart and see the truth in my messages. Obviously if u feel tat the god described in OT is cruel and unforgiving, u r right. And tat is probably wat god really is.