Does God Exist?
-
When the debate motion is framed in a neutral manner as "Does God Exist?" both sides of the debate must present their arguments for or against. Atheists can no longer take the easy way out by alleging that the burden of proof rests upon the theist.
What do you think?
-
Okay. I will debate you on this topic. Anytime you're ready. (:
The burden of proof lies with the one making the affirmative claim. The bruden of proof will lie on the atheist if he asserts the proposition "God does not exist". That is however, not my position. My view is that the evidence in favor of God's existence is not convincing and that there is little reason to postulate the existence of a supernatural entity.
-
.
-
Originally posted by White Dust:
Okay. I will debate you on this topic. Anytime you're ready. (:
The burden of proof lies with the one making the affirmative claim. The bruden of proof will lie on the atheist if he asserts the proposition "God does not exist". That is however, not my position. My view is that the evidence in favor of God's existence is not convincing and that there is little reason to postulate the existence of a supernatural entity.
Thanks but you are sharing your personal conclusion of the matter and has sidestepped the whole debate itself. Why don't you share which of the arguments for God are not convincing and why? -
Originally posted by Miyuki miingguii:
I assume that u r talking about the Christian god?
Firstly, if u attend enough church, the "god's" words can easily be translated to "worship me or I'll torture u forever. Have a nice day."
Secondly, millions of innocent people have been killed and tortured ever since the introduction of Christianity.
Thirdly, if we ask all faithful believers to pray that there will b peace and harmony in the world, it will not happen.
Thumbs up for your interesting reply.
-
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Thanks but you are sharing your personal conclusion of the matter and has sidestepped the whole debate itself. Why don't you share which of the arguments for God are not convincing and why?Sure! Do I list them in this topic? Or would another topic be more appropriate/less cluttered? I will basically argue from the standpoint of Logical Absolutes, Objective Moral Intuitions and Problem of Evil. Also, assuming we are debating the existence of the Christian God, I will call into question the idea of Biblical inerrancy and how I think interpolations have corrupted the Gospels as well as list out certain ancient pagan parallels of suspicion.
Oh yes, which arguments do I find unconvincing? The standard apologetical material has been unconvincing to me thus far. Things like the cosmological argument, the fine tuning argument, argument from morality, personal revelation and etcetra. I'm sure you're familiar with the likes of William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga and Richard Swinburne. If you like, I can also offer a critique of the aforementioned. (:
-
.
-
Originally posted by White Dust:
Sure! Do I list them in this topic? Or would another topic be more appropriate/less cluttered? I will basically argue from the standpoint of Logical Absolutes, Objective Moral Intuitions and Problem of Evil. Also, assuming we are debating the existence of the Christian God, I will call into question the idea of Biblical inerrancy and how I think interpolations have corrupted the Gospels as well as list out certain ancient pagan parallels of suspicion.
Oh yes, which arguments do I find unconvincing? The standard apologetical material has been unconvincing to me thus far. Things like the cosmological argument, the fine tuning argument, argument from morality, personal revelation and etcetra. I'm sure you're familiar with the likes of William Lane Craig, Alvin Plantinga and Richard Swinburne. If you like, I can also offer a critique of the aforementioned. (:
This thread is primarily to debate and discuss the motion "Does God Exist?" so feel free to share your views. We can simply debate the merits of theism or atheism first and then later debate on why I think if there is a God that it is the one revealed in the Bible. I suggest to discuss Biblical Inerrancy in the other thread I started on the Word of God. While related they are quite distinct issues.Yes, I am familiar with the Christian apologists you mentioned, though I have read more by Craig than the others. Plantinga does not really write for the layman in my view.
Lets start with the kalam cosmological argument then, defended most robustly by William Lane Craig.
-
Originally posted by Miyuki miingguii:
A few lovely quotes about religion and god.
1.Too Stupid to Understand Science? Try Religion.
2.There’s A REASON Why Atheists Don’t Fly Planes Into Buildings
3.“Worship Me or I Will Torture You Forever. Have a Nice Day.� God.
4.If There is No God, Then What Makes the Next Kleenex Pop Up?
5.He’s Dead. It’s Been 2,000 years. He’s Not Coming Back. Get OVER It Already!
6.All religion is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. ~ Edgar Allen Poe.
Viva La Evolución!
7.If God Wanted People to Believe in Him, Then Why Did He Invent Logic?
8.Praying Is Politically Correct Schizophrenia
9.If we were made in his image, when why aren’t humans invisible too?
10.JESUS SAVES….You From Thinking For Yourself
11.Praying is like a rocking chair-- it'll give you something to do, but it won't get you anywhere
12.When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion.
13.Everything is more or less organized matter. To think so is against religion, but I think so just the same. When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself
14. ....In the beginning... MAN CREATED GOD.
15.“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.�
16. Religion easily has the best bullshit story of all time. Think about it. Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money
17.Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish.
Sources: http://wwjv4.com/politics/friday-funny-top-50-athiest-sayings-171
http://www.booksie.com/humor/miscellaneous/city_of_evil_/funny-atheist-quotes-bumper-stickers
Thanks for the entertainment. Now if you would be so kind as to provide arguments for or against the existence of God? Those quips and quotes are not arguments. -
Originally posted by Miyuki miingguii:
I assume that u r talking about the Christian god?
Firstly, if u attend enough church, the "god's" words can easily be translated to "worship me or I'll torture u forever. Have a nice day."
Secondly, millions of innocent people have been killed and tortured ever since the introduction of Christianity.
Thirdly, if we ask all faithful believers to pray that there will b peace and harmony in the world, it will not happen.
Yes I am referring to the God that Christians worship.1. You have confused translation with interpretation. Anyway, Christians worship God not because they are terrified of hell. Kids don't love their parents because they are afraid of being caned. You seem to have a pretty warped view of relationships.
2. I agree that millions of people have been killed since Christianity was introduced 2000 years ago. But just because event B followed event A it does not mean that A caused B. Anyway, neither Christ nor the NT teaches believers to kill innocent people.
3. Peace is not just the absence of war and physical conflict. The Bible does not teach that the existence of God means the absence of conflict in this present time. We live in a fallen world but a time will come when there will be no more tears and wars. God will draw the final curtain on human history.
Anyway to sum up, none of your three points above have any relevance to the issue of whether God exists. If you think there is, you would have to argue your case.
-
"According to Stephen Hawking in his book "The Nature of Space and Time", the universe was not eternal. During the Big Bang 15 billion years ago, physical time and matter began to exist. Thus, the universe began to exist during the Big Bang. Where did it come from? There must have been an uncaused, changeless and timeless being who caused the Big Bang. Premise 1 - Whatever begins to exist has a cause. Premise 2 - The universe began to exist, Premise 3 - The universe has a cause." - William Lane Craig's opening statement with his debate with Christopher Hitchens (2009)
My reponse - Consider the question "What created time?" Causality requires an application of time. asking what created time before time existed is a self contradictory statement. in essence, it's like asking "What's North of the North Pole?" Hence, to speak of causality before time existed is a self refuting concept. You cannot have creation in the absence of time. Secondly, it is not necessary for the universe to have a cause. The assertion presented is that since everytime thing that begins to exist in the universe has a cause, therefore the universe has a cause. This is a fallacy of composition (assuming what is true of a part is necessarily true of a whole). Thirdly, let us assume, just to make things more interesting, that the premises of the Cosmological Argument are correct. We are now left with a timeless, spaceless, immaterial creator. At this point, we have no idea what that could be. it could be the square root of 7, or the concept of an apple. How does one jump from non physical causation, as stated in the premises to God?
-
the start of a vicious cycle.
-
I'm just taking part in this for the fun of it. It is a vicious cycle, no doubt.
-
Originally posted by White Dust:
"According to Stephen Hawking in his book "The Nature of Space and Time", the universe was not eternal. During the Big Bang 15 billion years ago, physical time and matter began to exist. Thus, the universe began to exist during the Big Bang. Where did it come from? There must have been an uncaused, changeless and timeless being who caused the Big Bang. Premise 1 - Whatever begins to exist has a cause. Premise 2 - The universe began to exist, Premise 3 - The universe has a cause." - William Lane Craig's opening statement with his debate with Christopher Hitchens (2009)
My reponse - Consider the question "What created time?" Causality requires an application of time. asking what created time before time existed is a self contradictory statement. in essence, it's like asking "What's North of the North Pole?" Hence, to speak of causality before time existed is a self refuting concept. You cannot have creation in the absence of time. Secondly, it is not necessary for the universe to have a cause. The assertion presented is that since everytime thing that begins to exist in the universe has a cause, therefore the universe has a cause. This is a fallacy of composition (assuming what is true of a part is necessarily true of a whole). Thirdly, let us assume, just to make things more interesting, that the premises of the Cosmological Argument are correct. We are now left with a timeless, spaceless, immaterial creator. At this point, we have no idea what that could be. it could be the square root of 7, or the concept of an apple. How does one jump from non physical causation, as stated in the premises to God?
If I am not wrong, it is agreed that time, space and matter (catch all phrase for the universe) had a beginning. Secular folks call it "The Big Bang" that supposedly happened billions of years ago. The Bible calls it "The Beginning" that took place about 6000 years ago. But the recent scientific conclusion that the universe has a beginning merely confirms what the Bible has been saying for millennia.
Causality simply requires that effects have causes. If time is an effect, then its cause must be outside of time. There is NOTHING contradictory or self-refuting about that at all. I am not saying that there was a time before time began. The Bible does not begin this way either. BTW, that fits very well with the Biblical view of God, who stands outside of time (dwells in eternity) and created time. Our finite brain hurts to think of what eternity is like because we are space bound and time bound.
You argue that it is a fallacy of composition to say that the universe must have a cause. You have failed to understand the Kalam argument. It says that everything that has a beginning must have a cause. The universe has a beginning, therefore it must have a cause. There is no fallacy here at all, not even one of composition.
It is true that the Kalam argument only tells us just so much about what the cause must be, but not much more. However, at this point we have already one less atheist in the world. We simply need to move on and see if there is anything else that might reveal more of what this cause is like. But I am sure you appreciate the point that this timeless, spaceless, immaterial cause fits very well with the Biblical God.
-
Still trolling?
-
Originally posted by Miyuki miingguii:
A few lovely quotes about religion and god.
1.Too Stupid to Understand Science? Try Religion.
2.There’s A REASON Why Atheists Don’t Fly Planes Into Buildings
3.“Worship Me or I Will Torture You Forever. Have a Nice Day.” God.
4.If There is No God, Then What Makes the Next Kleenex Pop Up?
5.He’s Dead. It’s Been 2,000 years. He’s Not Coming Back. Get OVER It Already!
6.All religion is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. ~ Edgar Allen Poe.
Viva La Evolución!
7.If God Wanted People to Believe in Him, Then Why Did He Invent Logic?
8.Praying Is Politically Correct Schizophrenia
9.If we were made in his image, when why aren’t humans invisible too?
10.JESUS SAVES….You From Thinking For Yourself
11.Praying is like a rocking chair-- it'll give you something to do, but it won't get you anywhere
12.When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion.
13.Everything is more or less organized matter. To think so is against religion, but I think so just the same. When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself
14. ....In the beginning... MAN CREATED GOD.
15.“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.”
16. Religion easily has the best bullshit story of all time. Think about it. Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money
17.Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish.
Sources: http://wwjv4.com/politics/friday-funny-top-50-athiest-sayings-171
http://www.booksie.com/humor/miscellaneous/city_of_evil_/funny-atheist-quotes-bumper-stickers
-
Originally posted by White Dust:
I'm just taking part in this for the fun of it. It is a vicious cycle, no doubt.
Just to be clear about one point, I'm not here for the fun of anything. If you do not intend to have a serious discussion, then really there's no point going on. If you are going to make a mockery out of this thread and forum then let's just end it here. Because I think it is disrespectful to the other person who take it seriously that you are just doing it for the fun of it. I mean, you can have fun discussing things in the sense that you have enjoyed it. But if means by having fun that you don't intend to invest any seriousness to it then it is meaningless.
-
Originally posted by Miyuki miingguii:
A few lovely quotes about religion and god.
1.Too Stupid to Understand Science? Try Religion.
2.There’s A REASON Why Atheists Don’t Fly Planes Into Buildings
3.“Worship Me or I Will Torture You Forever. Have a Nice Day.” God.
4.If There is No God, Then What Makes the Next Kleenex Pop Up?
5.He’s Dead. It’s Been 2,000 years. He’s Not Coming Back. Get OVER It Already!
6.All religion is simply evolved out of fraud, fear, greed, imagination, and poetry. ~ Edgar Allen Poe.
Viva La Evolución!
7.If God Wanted People to Believe in Him, Then Why Did He Invent Logic?
8.Praying Is Politically Correct Schizophrenia
9.If we were made in his image, when why aren’t humans invisible too?
10.JESUS SAVES….You From Thinking For Yourself
11.Praying is like a rocking chair-- it'll give you something to do, but it won't get you anywhere
12.When one person suffers from a delusion, it is called insanity. When many people suffer from a delusion it is called Religion.
13.Everything is more or less organized matter. To think so is against religion, but I think so just the same. When did I realize I was God? Well, I was praying and I suddenly realized I was talking to myself
14. ....In the beginning... MAN CREATED GOD.
15.“Millions of innocent men, women, and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burned, tortured, fined, and imprisoned, yet we have not advanced one inch toward uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half of the world fools and the other half hypocrites.”
16. Religion easily has the best bullshit story of all time. Think about it. Religion has convinced people that there’s an invisible man…living in the sky. Who watches everything you do every minute of every day. And the invisible man has a list of ten specific things he doesn’t want you to do. And if you do any of these things, he will send you to a special place, of burning and fire and smoke and torture and anguish for you to live forever, and suffer, and burn, and scream, until the end of time. But he loves you. He loves you. He loves you and he needs money
17.Give a man a fish and he will eat for a day; teach a man to fish and he will eat for a lifetime; give a man religion and he will die praying for a fish.
Sources: http://wwjv4.com/politics/friday-funny-top-50-athiest-sayings-171
http://www.booksie.com/humor/miscellaneous/city_of_evil_/funny-atheist-quotes-bumper-stickers
-
It is true, that a little philosophy inclineth man's mind to atheism, but depth in philosophy bringeth men's minds about to religion.
~ Francis BaconIf you can't believe in God, chances are your God is too small.
~ James PhillipsDuring the crusades all were religious mad, and now all are mad for want of it.
~ Captain J. G. StedmanIf you don't believe in God, all you have to believe in is decency. Decency is
very good. Better decent than indecent. But I don't think it's enough.
~ Harold MacmillanWhat you don't understand is that it is possible to be an atheist, it is possible
not to know if God exists or why He should, and yet to believe that man does
not live in a state of nature but in history, and that history as we know it now
began with Christ, it was founded by Him on the Gospels.
~ Boris PasternakNo one can be an unbeliever nowadays. The Christian Apologists have left one
nothing to disbelieve.
~ Hector Hugh MunroAn atheist is a man who believes himself an accident.
~ Francis ThompsonAmong the repulsions of atheism for me has been its drastic uninterestingness
as an intellectual position. Where was the ingenuity, the ambiguity, the humanity
(in the Harvard sense) of saying that the universe just happened to happen and
that when we're dead we're dead?
~ John UpdikeAtheism is rather in the life than in the heart of man.
~ Francis BaconAtheism is the result of ignorance and pride; of strong sense and feeble reasons;
of good eating and ill-living. It is the plague of society, the corrupter of manners,
and the underminer of property.
~ Jeremy CollierA disbelief in God does not result in a belief in nothing; disbelief in God usually
results in a belief in anything.
~Arthur LynchThe only atheism is the denial of truth.
~Arthur LynchHe who never thirsts for God here, will thirst for Him before he has been dead
a minute.
~ B. NorthThe three great apostles of practical atheism, that make converts without
persecuting, and retain them without preaching, are wealth, health and power.
~ C C ColtonAtheist's don't exist. If you ask anyone why they are an atheist they will proceed
to explain their religion of non belief.
~ MonksarnnAn atheist is one who hopes the Lord will do nothing to disturb his disbelief.
~ Franklin P. JonesTo doubt is not sin, but to be contented to remain in doubt when God has
provided "many infallible proofs" to cure it, is.
~ Irwin H. LintonThere is no being eloquent for atheism. In that exhausted receiver the mind
cannot use its wings,- the clearest proof that it is out of its element.
~ HareNo man will say, "There is no God" 'till he is so hardened in sin that it has
become his interest that there should be none to call him to account.
~ Mathew Henry -
Trolling business must be very good that you need to set up your own forum to troll.
-
Originally posted by βÎτά:
Trolling business must be very good that you need to set up your own forum to troll.
EXCEPT that there is no way you can justify calling me a troll. It's just your way of trying to get people to ignore the arguments against atheism. What are you so scared of anyway? Or are you just jealous?
-
.
-
Originally posted by Miyuki miingguii:
If u wan a fair debate, you've got to be more or less neutral and unbiased towards both sides. Judging from ur replies, u seemed to be either a Christian or a believer. For a fair debate, you've got to be unbiased, but simply feel that one side is more true than the other.
If in the beginning of time, god exist and created everything, then y do we find no evidences of dinosaurs worshipping god?
Firstly, there is no such thing as a neutral or unbiased person. You are not even one yourself to begin with, for crying out loud.
Secondly, what we should be examining are the arguments presented. Arguments and views may be biased but we still need to examine them on their own merits for validity and soundness.
Thirdly, why should dinosaurs worship God? Only humans are created in the image of God and can have fellowship with God.
-
It is absolutely impossible to expect the christians to be unbiased, it is like asking the muslims to eat pork. Christianity is a religion or faith as the christians called it which God is suppose to be number ONE and centre of their lives. God is the alpha and omega to them this is what the bible is teaching. Anything not of God is considered satanic.
Yes, I believe in the existence of God but God is a bias God, selectively having favours to whom he wants to help and love. I have seen how evil christians are so blessed at the same time they are evil to the innocent and the God keeps blessing them. IT IS CLAIMED THAT GOD HAS AGAPE LOVE, so untrue, IT IS ALL CRAP! If it is agape love why only help some and neglect the rest and worst allow he evil christians to give hell to the innocent. Bible is very contradicting and is overrated by christians. Don't forget he favours Israel, this has been written at least a few times in the bible. It is said he is a perfect god , a god that practises partiality is absolutely 100 percent not perfect. Bless the evil kind of God I don't respect.
Basically, you need to be willing to be brainwashed to become a christian. Thank goodness I have woken up no longer brainwashed. Thank you god for not delivering what you promise and all the evil christians' evil work.
They the christians are not neutral. In fact in the bible it is said they are not to judge but they judge. They are very fast to jump to conclusion to point fingers that it is you , you and you ...... blah blah blah. Thank goodness, I have overcome the shit of it the faith!!!!
-
Originally posted by BroInChrist:
Just to be clear about one point, I'm not here for the fun of anything. If you do not intend to have a serious discussion, then really there's no point going on. If you are going to make a mockery out of this thread and forum then let's just end it here. Because I think it is disrespectful to the other person who take it seriously that you are just doing it for the fun of it. I mean, you can have fun discussing things in the sense that you have enjoyed it. But if means by having fun that you don't intend to invest any seriousness to it then it is meaningless.
I have fun in the sense of enjoying what I do and discuss. Everything in life is and can be really fun, if only it'd be given the chance to be. I'm certain you can tell from my replies that they have been serious and intellectually defensible thus far. I don't wish to call this ad hominem per se; but it seems to me, that you have a propensity of shooting down our discussion on emotional grounds by means of the claim that critics aren't serious about these discussions.
Not sure how to multi quote your previous reply but I'll try to squeeze what I can in here. Time is not an effect; time is a pre-requisite for cause and effect. Causality is necessarily temporal, which means it involves an a priori "before" and "after". The concept of before and after is absurd, not to mention self contradictory in the absence of time. Kalam works by an appeal to our cognitive faculties. We observe that "in this universe", everything that begins to exist has a cause. It is then said that therefore, the universe has a cause. But how are we to ascertain if causality exists "outside the universe" if all we've got are occurences of causality "in the universe"? This is the fallacy of composition which I'm referring to. I would also like to add that Kalam does not compel people from atheism, because of the plethora of "creators". One could just as well believe that a blue potato was the uncaused, changless and timeless creator without necessarily believing that said blue potato is a supernatural diety.