Homosexuality is a mental illness.
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Then I guess, it must be you who are imposing your beliefs and views on others, not us.Originally posted by plo30360:Christians regard everyone as their neighbours, whether they believe or not ,are children of God.
The relationship between God and a person who is homosexual is not hurt because his is a homosexual but because he carrys out acts of homosexulaity which are sinful.
Of course, you do sinful things everyday. You are also hurting your relationship with God. Since u already state that ALL sins are wrong, and have no order of severity, why don't u focus on yourself 1st and stop worrying about others? Because you know that if u accept that homosexuality is not a sin, then maybe your religion is not true, and with that, goes your chance of salvation right?
and therein, we have come full circle. to the original saying that you are selfish in that u don't wish to risk your own salvation to destroy the cause, belief and justification for hate and violence.
However much you are concerned for them, in the end it still stems from a selfish wish for salvation, because u simply refuse accept that its not a sin and risk your own salvation. -
And do you understand, did you try to understand?
Yes, you were. Instead of making your case, you say that outsiders don't understand and then run off to hide under your religious blanket.
Debate
You've got plenty of people here debating the case, and if you actually had enough sensible points on hand to put together as a cogent argument, you might be surprised at how many people would agree with you.
If by dogmatic, you mean that I believe in objective truths then certainly.I'll agree with you "this is the way things are". Throwing my toys
Instead, you get all dogmatic, insisting that it's just the way things are and expecting people to accept that, and when they don't, you throw your toys out of the pram and react by saying they don't understand because they're all outsiders. . I have not done such,if you want to dicuss the difference between relative truths and objective truths fine by me. But if you want to consider everything as relative then I must firmly make my stand.
In what way was I dishonest?
Well excuse the hell out of me if I see you as being intellectually dishonest.
As to whether cowardice is sin, I do not know, but most certainly God does not hate the coward(the person)
I'll also add cowardice to your litany of sins, and we all know God hates a coward. -
Revelation 21:8
But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." God boil the cowardly too. According to tis phrase they r as sinful as sexual offender(homo). But of course since u choose which is sins among the many sins stated in the bible, u can conveniently foregt about tis verse too -
ok then, i guess u should go n focus on your sin, instead of condemning other's sins.Originally posted by plo30360:As to whether cowardice is sin, I do not know, but most certainly God does not hate the coward(the person) -
Well now, we can't seem to agree. For me, not condoning homsexuality does not equate as hating homosexuals. Of, course as you have stated by my saying that homosexuality is wrong, I'm contributing to the hate. But as I've stated, people who go and hurt homosexuals are the same like the anti-abortionists.These people by hating are doing wrong.I did not tell them to hate the person but the sin.
1stly, i do not appreciate u misquoting what i said. u are labelled as being responsible for allowing the reason to exist. u did not create it. it was there already when u subscribed to it. but as u are one of the persons supporting this reason, u're partially responsible for keeping it alive. this in turn, keeps the hate and violence alive, and hence u are indirectly responsible for allowing hate and violence to continue.
The analogy is fine because for Christians life does not end at physical death. Since all sins interfere with eternal life, homosexuality must be addressed.
in abortion, it concerns the life of another being. the implications of it is much different from homosexuality. to weigh it up, this does not make a good analogy, because u have an issue here choosing between saving the lives of many against violence against a few. but homosexualty? u have an issue here of making them 'normal' against the issue of violence against them. Why don't u pick an example where if you condone it, there is no danger and no harm to the life of anyone?
I stated that every one is a child of God, in the same as we are subject to the law of gravity. When Buddhists say that everything is affected by the law of karma, are they imposing their beliefs on others?
Then I guess, it must be you who are imposing your beliefs and views on others, not us.
[qoute]
Of course, you do sinful things everyday. You are also hurting your relationship with God. Since u already state that ALL sins are wrong, and have no order of severity, why don't u focus on yourself 1st and stop worrying about others?
ok then, i guess u should go n focus on your sin, instead of condemning other's sins.
[/quote]
In other words because I'm a sinner,I should concentrate on my sins 1st. All well and good. However, it would also be wrong if I saw a brother doing something wrong and not do anything about it.
This would applicable if you have relative truths. But, as I'm concerned right now, the apceptance of salvation is not based upon sins but upon the recognition and rejection(for Christians this would mean to accept God and his grace) of all of them.
Because you know that if u accept that homosexuality is not a sin, then maybe your religion is not true, and with that, goes your chance of salvation right?
and therein, we have come full circle. to the original saying that you are selfish in that u don't wish to risk your own salvation to destroy the cause, belief and justification for hate and violence.
However much you are concerned for them, in the end it still stems from a selfish wish for salvation, because u simply refuse accept that its not a sin and risk your own salvation.
Thanks for telling me, I shall keep in mind cowardice is sin and try not to commit it anymore
But of course since u choose which is sins among the many sins stated in the bible, u can conveniently foregt about tis verse too -
is this how u and the church justified the burning of people at stake for heresay, the massacre of millions under the sword of the crusaders both in the middle east and in the southern france and spain regions, the drowning of innocent women for suspected witchcraft?Originally posted by plo30360:The analogy is fine because for Christians life does not end at physical death. Since all sins interfere with eternal life, homosexuality must be addressed.
is that how u assauge your own consciences so that u may continue doing wrong? -
do they then, proceed to speak against you because they are 'concerned' for you? or do they respect your right to not believe in their religion?Originally posted by plo30360:I stated that every one is a child of God, in the same as we are subject to the law of gravity. When Buddhists say that everything is affected by the law of karma, are they imposing their beliefs on others?
maybe u have no right to be concerned about a sinner if he does not believe in your religion, because u ARE imposing your belief on others. -
1stly, u have no right to impose your religion on him if he's not christian.Originally posted by plo30360:However, it would also be wrong if I saw a brother doing something wrong and not do anything about it.
2ndly, if what u say is true, then we ae definately right in doing what we're doing now. the only difference is, we're not imposing anything on u. we're having an intelligent debate with you, and hoping to convince you. we're actively pointing out visible negative impacts your actions indirectly have.
3rdly, once again, it does seem more like its your wish not to do wrong that compells you to "do something" rather than true concern. Do u, for one, stand up against homophobia, and condemn people who attack homosexuals physically and verbally? Do u tell them hate the sin, not the sinner? Do u fight that homosexuals deserve the same human rights and respect as anyone else? If it wasn't for this debate here, would u have even made this your clear stand at all? -
ah. then now u are being contradictory in saying that as long as u accept God, it doesn't matter even if u sin. So whats to harm a homosexual's relationship with God even if he engages in homosexual acts? As long as he recognist Christ and God, what matter is it even if he sins? His soul is still saved.Originally posted by plo30360:This would applicable if you have relative truths. But, as I'm concerned right now, the apceptance of salvation is not based upon sins but upon the recognition and rejection(for Christians this would mean to accept God and his grace) of all of them.
NO MATTER which way u pull it, u're just causing a homosexual unnecessary grief in his mortal life. If whether one's soul is saved depends on whether one sins, then highly unlikely that anybody, including the homosexual, AND you is going to be saved anyway, so instead of causing grief and misery for others, u should look at yourself.
If whether one is saved depends on one's acceptance of Christ and God's grace, then once again u're causing him unnecessary grief and misery in his mortal life, because in the end, his soul will receive salvation.
so if i will not change his chance of salvation one way or the other, why should u still cause a person unnecessary grief and misery in his or her mortal life? -
as long as u refuse to accept that your belief in a certain idea is indirectly responsible for some of the unnecessary hate and violence in this world, u're still committing that sin.Originally posted by plo30360:Thanks for telling me, I shall keep in mind cowardice is sin and try not to commit it anymore -
Certainly what these you've mentioned are wrong(though it seems every year the numbers increase by 10).There is no justification for them. Are you implying that our idea of addresing homosexaulity, is in the same way as these?
is this how u and the church justified the burning of people at stake for heresay, the massacre of millions under the sword of the crusaders both in the middle east and in the southern france and spain regions, the drowning of innocent women for suspected witchcraft?
is that how u assauge your own consciences so that u may continue doing wrong?
Oh, yes. Just yesterday, my Buddhist friend was preaching to me.Buddhists believe in helping people to achive enlightenment. And if you go to the Buddist forum right now, there is a chain of topics ridiculing theism.
do they then, proceed to speak against you because they are 'concerned' for you? or do they respect your right to not believe in their religion?
Just because if someone is not Christian, but he sets himself on fire. Wouldn't it be wrong if I just stood by?
maybe u have no right to be concerned about a sinner if he does not believe in your religion, because u ARE imposing your belief on others.
1stly, u have no right to impose your religion on him if he's not christian.
If the part in is not imposing your beliefs, then I don't what is
2ndly, if what u say is true, then we ae definately right in doing what we're doing now. the only difference is, we're not imposing anything on u. we're having an intelligent debate with you, and hoping to convince you. we're actively pointing out visible negative impacts your actions indirectly have. . Its your belief that my view on homosexuality is wrong,therefore you want me to convince me so that my view will be the same as yourself.
Yes, I have condemed fellow Christians and non-Christians in real life when they pick on homosexuals but if your asking me whether I defend the right to practise homosexuality, no most certainly not.
3rdly, once again, it does seem more like its your wish not to do wrong that compells you to "do something" rather than true concern. Do u, for one, stand up against homophobia, and condemn people who attack homosexuals physically and verbally? Do u tell them hate the sin, not the sinner? Do u fight that homosexuals deserve the same human rights and respect as anyone else? If it wasn't for this debate here, would u have even made this your clear stand at all? -
Now, you'r misquoting me the aceptance of God and his grace is the recognition and rejection all sins.
ah. then now u are being contradictory in saying that as long as u accept God, it doesn't matter even if u sin. So whats to harm a homosexual's relationship with God even if he engages in homosexual acts? As long as he recognist Christ and God, what matter is it even if he sins? His soul is still saved.
NO MATTER which way u pull it, u're just causing a homosexual unnecessary grief in his mortal life. If whether one's soul is saved depends on whether one sins, then highly unlikely that anybody, including the homosexual, AND you is going to be saved anyway, so instead of causing grief and misery for others, u should look at yourself.
If whether one is saved depends on one's acceptance of Christ and God's grace, then once again u're causing him unnecessary grief and misery in his mortal life, because in the end, his soul will receive salvation.
so if i will not change his chance of salvation one way or the other, why should u still cause a person unnecessary grief and misery in his or her mortal life? -
There is only one sin
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Originally posted by stupidissmart:
Now pay attention, plo - there's somebody who knows how to read the Bible. Hell, it's someone who knows how to read, which is more than I can say for you.
Revelation 21:8
But the [b]cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars—their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." God boil the cowardly too. According to tis phrase they r as sinful as sexual offender(homo). But of course since u choose which is sins among the many sins stated in the bible, u can conveniently foregt about tis verse too[/b]
You want to talk about objective truth? That's a laugh. If you don't even know of the Bible's stance on cowardice, don't try telling me you know anything remotely related to truth or objectivity. You're just going to keep making a jackass of yourself.
By this one example alone, you've already demonstrated that you're confused, ignorant, obtuse and inane. FFS, you're claiming on the side of the Bible and your opponents know it better than you do - how dumb is that?
Go on, keep being insular and obtuse, bleating lamely that the other guys don't understand when they know your stuff better than you do. This is beautiful - I don't have to work to prove what a dickhead you are because you're doing all the work for me. -
Originally posted by plo30360:
Indeed? How would you know what the Bible says?
Now, you'r misquoting me the aceptance of God and his grace is the [b]recognition and rejection all sins. -
Pray, tell me which part of the bible did Jesus say the act of homsexuality is wrong?Originally posted by plo30360:I've already stated all sins commited by an individual hurt his relationship with God and his community. -
here is one; Romans 1 (have to read from verse 18-27 for the context of the verse)Originally posted by shade343:Pray, tell me which part of the bible did Jesus say the act of homsexuality is wrong?Romans 1:27
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. -
You are not answering my question. I said which part of the bible did Jesus Said that the act of homosexuality is wrong?Originally posted by vince69:here is one; Romans 1 (have to read from verse 18-27 for the context of the verse)
Keyword: Jesus said -
There you go spouting your ignorance again, Gedanken. Your interpretation of the scriptures goes only to show your complete lack of undertanding of the literature, background and basic principles of exegesis. But I do not have time to waste my breath on an ignoramus.
As for the thread, I don't think homosexuality is a mental illness. I know it is illegal and since this is a christian forum, I know it is an abomination to God. -
Y.E.S. Yes.Originally posted by plo30360:Certainly what these you've mentioned are wrong(though it seems every year the numbers increase by 10).There is no justification for them. Are you implying that our idea of addresing homosexaulity, is in the same way as these?
these sort of justification always come from your belief that life does not end at the mortal stage and that in verbally hurting homosexuals or physically killing heretics, you are "saving" their souls.
u're gambling their lives on something as insignificant as your believe in there being an afterlife and a judgement? marvelous. -
then i guess he has not grasped the gist of buddhism.Originally posted by plo30360:Oh, yes. Just yesterday, my Buddhist friend was preaching to me.Buddhists believe in helping people to achive enlightenment. And if you go to the Buddist forum right now, there is a chain of topics ridiculing theism.
as for the buddhist forums, i cannot comment because i have not seen it. But i am sure there are people there challenging their views as well. Of course if they are doing that, then they shouldn't, and perhaps they haven't grasped the gist of buddhism either -
once again, you raise an example where there is a definate danger to their life, regardless of your beliefs.Originally posted by plo30360:Just because if someone is not Christian, but he sets himself on fire. Wouldn't it be wrong if I just stood by?
but u are only sure homosexuals are 'endangering' their lives based on a belief YOU have. Like i said, what gives u the right to gamble their lives against YOUR personal belief and a presumed AND indefinate assumption that their souls are in danger?
Your logic and argument just cannot cut it. I fear in your zealousness to uphold your belief, u have lost your humanity. -
there is a difference between pointing out a FACT (which is that when you speak up against someone being homosexual, you do cause that person unnecesary emotional hurt and confusion) and you telling me that something you believe in is true, when its a indefinate belief without basis.Originally posted by plo30360:If the part in is not imposing your beliefs, then I don't what is . Its your belief that my view on homosexuality is wrong,therefore you want me to convince me so that my view will be the same as yourself.
I have no wish to convince you to have the same view as me. I only wish to convince you to stop hurting others unnecessarily and stop contributing indirectly to hatred against others.
Is that too much to ask for? I wish to trade a tiny bit of your belief for a tiny bit of your compassion and humanity. Is that too much to ask for? -
so u do not deny that you think homosexuals do not deserve the same human rights as anyone else. then how can u condemn those who pick on homosexuals when you yourself think they should be discriminated against?Originally posted by plo30360:Yes, I have condemed fellow Christians and non-Christians in real life when they pick on homosexuals but if your asking me whether I defend the right to practise homosexuality, no most certainly not. -
he asked where JESUS said, not where the bible said?Originally posted by vince69:Romans 1:27
27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion