so its ok for you to be responsible in some way for violence and hate, as long as it selfishly does not hurt your relationship with God. And that is the one biggest thing i have against people of your religion. Thinking only for yourselves. Willing to commit crimes against humanity in exchange for a chance at having a good relationship with God. From the highest Popes and Archbishops to the lowest layman believers, you people are really just believing because u selfishly wish to be saved isn't it?Originally posted by plo30360:For a Christian, any sin be it acts of violence or acts of homsexuality hurt our relationship with God and the community.
no of course, im wrong to come and try to show you how even your belief contributes to hate and discrimination.Originally posted by vince69:I agree, its seems like there are some coming in here with the intentions on enforcing their views on others, its like, "I find its ok so everyone else must accept it kind of stuff", I think I had spoken my peace with them, I don't they are here to discuss stuff, just trying to imposing themselves to boast their own ego.
I can sense their step will be character assassination
What's the difference? You have merely rephrased the words to flexible mind and inflexible mind. According to you a flexible mind is someone who doesn't make the disctions between truth and lie and belives that everything has the possibility of being true.
I am proposing, in the name of open-mindedness, for you not to think of it with an inflexible mind, as it being a lie, and see the possibility of it being true as well.
Both are results of what happens when someone misinterprets Scripture.
If scripture is right, why is slave-ownership abolished as a legality then?
If scripture is right, why has it been used to justify violence?
How does speaking out against an act, contribute to violence and hate against the person who commits them? We have already clearly stated many times it is wrong to hate the sinner.
so its ok for you to be responsible in some way for violence and hate, as long as it selfishly does not hurt your relationship with God. And that is the one biggest thing i have against people of your religion. Thinking only for yourselves. Willing to commit crimes against humanity in exchange for a chance at having a good relationship with God. From the highest Popes and Archbishops to the lowest layman believers, you people are really just believing because u selfishly wish to be saved isn't it?
well, if u wish to be responsible for letting the origin and justification of unnecessary hate and prejudice survive, so be it. If you can live with this responsibility in the selfish pursuit for your own salvation, I guess you DO need the salvation more than the rest of us.Originally posted by plo30360:Both are results of what happens when someone misinterprets Scripture.
Just as you have done so in order to prove Scriputre false.
your speaking out against it, lends justification to others who are even less rational and commit acts of violence and hate.Originally posted by plo30360:How does speaking out against an act, contribute to violence and hate against the person who commits them? We have already clearly stated many times it is wrong to hate the sinner.
When you point out the mistake of someone, you love, do you do that for personal gratifciation or do you that because you want to see that person improve?
It is almost as if Jesus died for nothing. Why bother to die on the cross if the way is by way of Judaistic Laws?So jesus died and everyone have the license to do anything they want ?
+1Originally posted by HENG@:well, if u wish to be responsible for letting the origin and justification of unnecessary hate and prejudice survive, so be it. If you can live with this responsibility in the selfish pursuit for your own salvation, I guess you DO need the salvation more than the rest of us.
Afterall, your ulterior motive is in your search for personal salvation, while many of us here stand to gain nothing, except perhaps the betterment of mankind for all.
I guess I can understand your selfish intentions. Not everyone can put themselves 2nd
its not even forced celibacy. they are more or less forced to be with a gender they don't like, and maybe even find disgusting be with. Its a crime against human rights.Originally posted by stupidissmart:So jesus died and everyone have the license to do anything they want ?
The problem with homophobic is discrimination against a group of people. Worse still it is widely believed tat this trend is due to nature, or being birth with such a problem. Tis is not their choice. Not only r they treated as abominations, they r forced to live a life of calibracy regardless of their will. Do all catholic/christian live a life of calibracy ? Why enforce it on tis particular group of people ?
This is your view. To me, it the same as someone telling me not to do an act which is wrong. Is he responsible for contributing hate and prejuidice towards me?
well, if u wish to be responsible for letting the origin and justification of unnecessary hate and prejudice survive, so be it. If you can live with this responsibility in the selfish pursuit for your own salvation, I guess you DO need the salvation more than the rest of us.
And this where your truth comes in again. You believe its nots wrong, I belive its is. Therefore when I tell someone against performing a homosexual act, I do so out of concern. Otherwise, why bother? Its not my problem, they endanger themselves.
As for your 2nd point, that will be dependent on your ability or inability to see the negative impact your dearly held beliefs have on the one u love.
You might have a stand its wrong to hate the sinner, which i appreciate, but the fact is, you are creating the mirage that there IS a sinner for other people who do not share your view of not hating the sinner, to hate.
Originally posted by stupidissmart:Jesus died so that man is no longer under the delusion that they have any hold on God. That if they are "good" and "righteous" people then God belongs to them.
So jesus died and everyone have the license to do anything they want ? [/b]
the difference is, do you get beaten up? do u have people who want to kill you? do people refuse you job and refuse you basic human rights?Originally posted by plo30360:This is your view. To me, it the same as someone telling me not to do an act which is wrong. Is he responsible for contributing hate and prejuidice towards me?
Its does not benefit my own salvation, by telling someone that he is sinning. By doing so, it contributes to his salvation.
To say that the Homosexual act is sinful is an abomination in itself. It is to presume that one knows what is Good and what is Evil.Originally posted by plo30360:And this where your truth comes in again. You believe its nots wrong, I belive its is. Therefore when I tell someone against performing a homosexual act, I do so out of concern. Otherwise, why bother? Its not my problem, they endanger themselves.
Just as I do not condone acts of homosexuality, I do not condone acts of violence or discrimination(however this is only regarding the person and not his acts) against homosexuals.
even if i belived it to be wrong, i would rather accept that its not wrong, because i do not wish to allow or support a reason for hate to exist. its not a matter of my truth or not. Consider this: It is of your view that they are endangering themselves, so you say u are concerned for them. How noble. And yet at the same time, u're unwilling to denounce something which is the foundation stone of hate and prejudice by less rational individuals, regardless of how false or true it is, because u fear it risks your own salvation.Originally posted by plo30360:And this where your truth comes in again. You believe its nots wrong, I belive its is. Therefore when I tell someone against performing a homosexual act, I do so out of concern. Otherwise, why bother? Its not my problem, they endanger themselves.
Just as I do not condone acts of homosexuality, I do not condone acts of violence or discrimination(however this is only regarding the person and not his acts) against homosexuals.
They can believe anything they want and we believe that they are being used by the devil to say homosexual acts are in itself sinful acts.Originally posted by HENG@:even if i belived it to be wrong, i would rather accept that its not wrong, because i do not wish to allow or support a reason for hate to exist. That is why we are saying what we are saying. I just hope you can understand this point.
As you've stated, there will be some people who will hate the sinner and hurt the sinner. Christians are obliged to come to the defence of the sinner, however they are also obliged not to condone his act. They have to detest his sin as they detest all sins including thier own.
the difference is, do you get beaten up? do u have people who want to kill you? do people refuse you job and refuse you basic human rights?
even if i belived it to be wrong, i would rather accept that its not wrong, because i do not wish to allow or support a reason for hate to exist. its not a matter of my truth or not. Consider this: It is of your view that they are endangering themselves, so you say u are concerned for them. How noble. And yet at the same time, u're unwilling to denounce something which is the foundation stone of hate and prejudice by less rational individuals, regardless of how false or true it is, because u fear it risks your own salvation.
once again, i say, its not your telling of someone that he is sinning that is selfish. its your refusal to stop supporting the origin and justification of hate(which u do not support) that is selfish, as u think if you did not believe in it, you would jepordize your own salvation.
So you do not condone acts of violence or discrimination. How noble once again! But as long as you hold on to the view that homosexuality is unnatural and wrong, we cannot wipe out violence and discrimination against homosexuals, because they will ALWAYS have this belief as justification to do so. To get rid of the violence and prejudice, we need to get rid of the justification. To get rid of the justification, we need to get rid of the belief. That is why we are saying what we are saying. I just hope you can understand this point.
You have to first show how their homosexual acts hurt people to call it "sinful." Who does it hurt?Originally posted by plo30360:As you've stated, there will be some people who will hate the sinner and hurt the sinner. Christians are obliged to come to the defence of the sinner, however they are also obliged not to condone his act. They have to detest his sin as they detest all sins including thier own.
You say that by not condoning the act we are building the foundation for hatred towards the sinner. Because as you have stated by hating homosexuality, I condone people who hate homosexulas.
You know that is like saying, by promoting pro-life I condone ,people who go around killing pro-abortionists. So therefore, I should not speak out against abortion.
We do know what is good and evil and that's why Adam and Eve were removed from the garden.
To say that the Homosexual act is sinful is an abomination in itself. It is to presume that one knows what is Good and what is Evil.
Sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. Everyday in our lives we love flawed and imperfect people, by doing so are we assuming we are God? Christ said to love as "I've loved you"
To say to a homosexual: "If you do this, Singapore laws will convict you of a crime," is true and correct. To say: "You are a sinner by your homosexual acts but I love you anyway," is to assume that you are God. By assuming that you are God, you are an instrument of Satan.
I've already stated all sins commited by an individual hurt his relationship with God and his community.
You have to first show how their homosexual acts hurt people to call it "sinful." Who does it hurt
i do not say u condone people who hate homosexuals. however, you do contribute to there being a reason to hate and discriminate against homosexuals. If nobody believes that homosexuality is unnatural, where would the strong justification for the hate and discrimination come from? People would then only have weak justifications for their hate against gays, much like the weakened justification thats left now for racial and gender discrimination. Why are you so intent on there being a good reason for people to hate and discriminate? Why are u so intent on proping up this good reason for hate and violence?Originally posted by plo30360:As you've stated, there will be some people who will hate the sinner and hurt the sinner. Christians are obliged to come to the defence of the sinner, however they are also obliged not to condone his act. They have to detest his sin as they detest all sins including thier own.
You say that by not condoning the act we are building the foundation for hatred towards the sinner. Because as you have stated by hating homosexuality, I condone people who hate homosexulas.
You know that is like saying, by promoting pro-life I condone ,people who go around killing pro-abortionists. So therefore, I should not speak out against abortion.
"his community" sounds like something added by human. It cannot make sense, because not all human communities accept the christian God to be the true god. So in a sense, if one within that community wishes to have a relationship with your God, he has to hurt his relationship with his community.Originally posted by plo30360:I've already stated all sins commited by an individual hurt his relationship with God and his community.
I do not see how its different. By not condoning homosexuality(the act), I'm labelled as creating a reason for people to hate and hurt homosexuals(the person)
i do not say u condone people who hate homosexuals. however, you do contribute to there being a reason to hate and discriminate against homosexuals. If nobody believes that homosexuality is unnatural, where would the strong justification for the hate and discrimination come from? People would then only have weak justifications for their hate against gays, much like the weakened justification thats left now for racial and gender discrimination. Why are you so intent on there being a good reason for people to hate and discriminate? Why are u so intent on proping up this good reason for hate and violence?
so u have not exactly understood what i've said, and its certainly NOT like saying, "by promoting pro-life u condone people who go around killing pro-abortionists. So therefore, u should not speak out against abortion."
u're just mismatching analogies now. don't do that. don't cloud the issue here.
Christians regard everyone as their neighbours, whether they believe or not ,are children of God.
"his community" sounds like something added by human. It cannot make sense, because not all human communities accept the christian God to be the true god. So in a sense, if one within that community wishes to have a relationship with your God, he has to hurt his relationship with his
community.
a sin should be something that hurts an individual's relationship with God, and God alone. And there is no reason why a homosexual's relationship with God is hurt simply because he is homosexual.
I'm telling you all sins are wrong. Be it homosexaulity,murder, wife abuse, adultery.
Are u telling me its far worse a crime in God's eyes to be peace loving, faithful to one partner gay, than to be a straight violent murderer, or a straight philanderer who also abuses his wife?
We know of the consequences of actions but cannot judge what is Good and Evil. We know that certains actions have certain consequences. We say, "bad" because of the negative consequences. To say "Evil" is to assume that you are God.Originally posted by plo30360:We do know what is good and evil and that's why Adam and Eve were removed from the garden.
Sorry but this doesn't make sense to me. Everyday in our lives we love flawed and imperfect people, by doing so are we assuming we are God? Christ said to love as "I've loved you"
Yes, you were. Instead of making your case, you say that outsiders don't understand and then run off to hide under your religious blanket.Originally posted by plo30360:Was I wrong to state such?
1stly, i do not appreciate u misquoting what i said. u are labelled as being responsible for allowing the reason to exist. u did not create it. it was there already when u subscribed to it. but as u are one of the persons supporting this reason, u're partially responsible for keeping it alive. this in turn, keeps the hate and violence alive, and hence u are indirectly responsible for allowing hate and violence to continue.Originally posted by plo30360:I do not see how its different. By not condoning homosexuality(the act), I'm labelled as creating a reason for people to hate and hurt homosexuals(the person)
By not condoning abortion(the act), I'm labelled as creating a reason for people to hate and hurt pro-abortionists(the person)