Homosexuality is a mental illness.
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Jesus is God? Since when? I know there are debates amongst Xtians about Jesus being God himself, or Jesus being God's son ad etc. But the mainstream belief, as I understand it, is that Jesus is not God. So Jesus did not say it.Originally posted by plo30360:In OT, God said it was a sin, and since Jesus is God, it holds true to NT
next, I didn't know u're a Jew. If u believed Jesus was the messiah and that he died on the cross for your sins, why do u still hold the OT as valid and true?
Since u adhere so strictly to the OT, I shall ask then, if u do not shave and trim the hair around your temples, if you do not wear clothing of mixed fibres, and if you are willing to sell your daughter into slavery -
Yes you are. Like I said, hurting them mentally, putting them thru needless psychological trauma, and giving them unnecessary misery. U are gambling on the quality of their life on your belief. You're also gambling that your actions and words will not drive them to suicide. U must be very short-sighted, or very blindly self-righteous, if you cannot or refuse to see how your actions can be harmful.Originally posted by plo30360:As above, I'm not gambling anyone's life by telling them a certain act is wrong. Ultimately its is up to them to make the choice.From The Christian pov they are endangering the eternal for temporal.I would have lost my humanity if I saw my brother in danger and stood by.
This is a Christian forum and a Christian viewpoint will be expressed.
Like I said, thats how u Xtians justify doing temporal harm. To "salvage the eternal" You gamble the temporal of others on there being an "eternal". You would rather convince yourself that u have not lost your humanity by helping a brother u PERCEIVE to be in danger according to YOUR beliefs, ignoring whatever REAL WORLD harmful effects that your action might result in. That, is a TRUE sign of u having already lost your humanity.
This may be a Christian forum, but humanity knows no boundaries. You can try to silence the truth of compassion, understanding and humanity, but do u ever wonder why it cannot be silenced? Because justice has a habit of dying hard. -
It IS undisputed fact. Its not my view. Its not a fact because its my truth. Its a fact because it IS.Originally posted by plo30360:Oh, so now what you say has become an undisputed fact There you go again imposing your view. "This is a fact because it is my truth"
Why can't u see this? Why can't u see the sort of unnecessary mental stress and pain you cause a gay person everytime u so self righteously tell him its wrong to be gay. I bet if Ged would happily supply some real life case examples if you want.
THIS is a REAL WORLD fact. Its based on NOBODY's belief. Get your head out of the clouds and SEE the consequences of your actions! -
Human rights is respecting the quality of another person's life, instead of lowering their quality of living by imposing your belief on them. Instead of gambling their qualty of life on your beliefs this way.Originally posted by plo30360:Define human rights. Jesus protected the adultress but he did not condone her sin.
Did Jesus screw with people' minds the way u screw with gay people's heads? -
According to the bible, Jesus was a descendent of this adulterous and murderous act.Originally posted by Icemoon:Erm .. so?
David was a murderer, which is recognized as a grave sin by believers and non-believers alike.
But God still loved him.
Don't tell me you are going to use David to justify murder and adultery also?
See what I meant when I said humans can only see the consequences of the actions and have no way to judge what Good and Evil is?
The issue with homosexuality is whether or not it is inherently Evil (a sin) and must be condemned.
We can say we condemn murder because the consequences are such and such.
We can say we condemn adultery because the consequences are such and such.
How can we say that David's murderous and adulterous acts are inherently Evil when it resulted in Jesus?
Are you willing to say that Jesus was a product of Evil?
YOU ARE NOT GOD AND YOU CANNOT JUDGE IF SOMETHING IS EVIL
It is up to the individual and he alone is accountable to God.
I can say that looking at homosexual acts makes me puke. You can say that you will not indulge in homosexual acts because you believe that it is evil. That is your perogative.
What you cannot say and do is tell another person not to do it. You are not God. Especially when you cannot even say what the consequences are; other than it is a sin (an evil.) You are not God.
By assuming that you can; you are an arrogant animal. From my own experiences with God; I can tell you that you have strong beliefs but you are not born again.
No arrogant animal can surrender fully to God in humility as far as I can see. As far as I know, none who does not surrender fully to God in humility can be born again. -
strange, what happened to the topicstarter?
leaving some controversial remarks then fly off
looking at some of his past topics reveal this
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=160239
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=157294
http://www.sgforums.com/?action=thread_display&thread_id=188146
and now this thread?
enjoy
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Is Plo imposing his belief on them? Are the Christians imposing their belief on the unbelievers with regards to homosexuality?Originally posted by HENG@:Human rights is respecting the quality of another person's life, instead of lowering their quality of living by imposing your belief on them. Instead of gambling their qualty of life on your beliefs this way.
Did Jesus screw with people' minds the way u screw with gay people's heads?
While the bible is somehow guilty of all the pogroms, let's agree that good beliefs can be manipulated to suit those in power. -
Originally posted by casino_king:
One load of bull .. qiang ci duo li.
According to the bible, Jesus was a descendent of this adulterous and murderous act.
See what I meant when I said humans can only see the consequences of the actions and have no way to judge what Good and Evil is?
The issue with homosexuality is whether or not it is inherently Evil (a sin) and must be condemned.
We can say we condemn murder because the consequences are such and such.
We can say we condemn adultery because the consequences are such and such.
How can we say that David's murderous and adulterous acts are inherently Evil when it resulted in Jesus?
Are you willing to say that Jesus was a product of Evil?
[b]YOU ARE NOT GOD AND YOU CANNOT JUDGE IF SOMETHING IS EVIL
It is up to the individual and he alone is accountable to God.
I can say that looking at homosexual acts makes me puke. You can say that you will not indulge in homosexual acts because you believe that it is evil. That is your perogative.
What you cannot say and do is tell another person not to do it. You are not God. Especially when you cannot even say what the consequences are; other than it is a sin (an evil.) You are not God.
By assuming that you can; you are an arrogant animal. From my own experiences with God; I can tell you that you have strong beliefs but you are not born again.
No arrogant animal can surrender fully to God in humility as far as I can see. As far as I know, none who does not surrender fully to God in humility can be born again.[/b]
Didn't Adam and Eve eat from the tree of Good and Evil? -
Originally posted by HENG@:Jesus is God? Since when? I know there are debates amongst Xtians about Jesus being God himself, or Jesus being God's son ad etc. But the mainstream belief, as I understand it, is that Jesus is not God. So Jesus did not say it.
Are you telling us a joke? Please say you are ..
When did Plo become a Jew?Originally posted by HENG@:next, I didn't know u're a Jew. If u believed Jesus was the messiah and that he died on the cross for your sins, why do u still hold the OT as valid and true?
Since u adhere so strictly to the OT, I shall ask then, if u do not shave and trim the hair around your temples, if you do not wear clothing of mixed fibres, and if you are willing to sell your daughter into slavery
It is Christian mainstream belief that the NT does not negate the OT. This is the view of the NT - 2Tim3: "All scripture is inspired by God and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness, 17so that everyone who belongs to God may be proficient, equipped for every good work. "
Scripture here can only refers to the OT, since the NT wasn't compiled when the letter was written. -
Undoubtedly, but I'd expand it to say that beliefs, good or bad can be put to bad use. Also, I''m yet to be convinced that homosexuality as a sin is a good belief.Originally posted by Icemoon:While the bible is somehow guilty of all the pogroms, let's agree that good beliefs can be manipulated to suit those in power. -
And what in the world did "eating from the tree of good and evil" meant? Chewing an apple? Why was eating from the tree of good and evil the ORIGINAL sin that plagued mankind? Disobeying God was the Original Sin? hahahaha, another gullible believer who swallows everything fed to him.Originally posted by Icemoon:One load of bull .. qiang ci duo li.
Didn't Adam and Eve eat from the tree of Good and Evil? -
I didn't even talk about Original Sin.Originally posted by casino_king:And what in the world did "eating from the tree of good and evil" meant? Chewing an apple? Why was eating from the tree of good and evil the ORIGINAL sin that plagued mankind? Disobeying God was the Original Sin? hahahaha, another gullible believer who swallows everything fed to him.
You said - See what I meant when I said humans can only see the consequences of the actions and have no way to judge what Good and Evil is?
You need to elaborate since Genesis 3 said:
4But the serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not die; 5for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God,* knowing good and evil.’
22 Then the Lord God said, ‘See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil -
It is a sin because homosexuals cannot reach the highest spiritual state through the copulation of the male and female (watch DVC ..)Originally posted by Gedanken:Undoubtedly, but I'd expand it to say that beliefs, good or bad can be put to bad use. Also, I''m yet to be convinced that homosexuality as a sin is a good belief.
Ok, this is a bad argument.
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Originally posted by Icemoon:
Only in a limited sense. Man only has an inkling of Good and Evil. Genesis is not to be understood with intellectual capacity. Genesis is to be experienced. To be born again is to go back to the time before Adam ate of the fruit, to go back to the time when man trusted God fully and did not presume to know what good and evil was. Not that man knows; without immortality, the good and evil that man knows is low quality. Is is not even knowledge of Good and Evil; not since man was forced out of the garden.
I didn't even talk about Original Sin.
You said - [b]See what I meant when I said humans can only see the consequences of the actions and have no way to judge what Good and Evil is?
You need to elaborate since Genesis 3 said:
4But the serpent said to the woman, ‘You will not die; 5for God knows that when you eat of it your eyes will be opened, and you will be like God,* knowing good and evil.’
22 Then the Lord God said, ‘See, the man has become like one of us, knowing good and evil
[/b]
It is very difficult to talk to you. It is easier if you become born again yourself so you understand all these. -
So who, in your opinion, has been born again?Originally posted by casino_king:It is very difficult to talk to you. It is easier if you become born again yourself so you understand all these.
Those in the Buddhism forum? -
what a lively show here
carry on people -
Obviously not youOriginally posted by Icemoon:So who, in your opinion, has been born again?
Those in the Buddhism forum? 
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God does not tolerate murder. David repented and so he was forgiven. If homosexuals will repent and turn from their wicked ways, they will be forgiven as well.Originally posted by Gedanken:As others have argued earlier, murder is obviously of harm to other people while homsexuality per se is not.
And that's a good point that you've brought up, actually. If God tolerates murder, who is anybody to say that homosexuality is a sin?
Is 1: 18-20
"Come now, let us reason together," says the LORD. "Though your sins are like scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they are red as crimson, they shall be like wool. If you are willing and obedient, you will eat the best from the land; but if you resist and rebel, you will be devoured by the sword." For the mouth of the LORD has spoken. -
Since you can quote the Bible, why not quote for us a verse that says: Thou Shall Not Commit Homosexual Acts?
Why is adultery in there but not homosexual acts? "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14)
Are you not like the Phrasees that add salt and pepper to the 10 comandments?
Furthermore was it "Thou shalt not commit adultery" or "Thou shalt condenm adultery?"
Are you God? -
double post
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Did I say I was born again?Originally posted by casino_king:Obviously not you
You haven't ans me the question - who in your opinion has been born again? -
Originally posted by Gedanken:
Read the same passages again:
I pointed out:
- "Ruth clave onto [Naomi]" (Ruth 1:14)
- "Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the one of the twain ('twain' referring to Jonathan and Michal)" (1 Samuel 18:20-21)
- chesed v'rachamim (which in Hebrew cannot be easily explained away as a platonic friendship)
have been in the Bible all this time.
[b]
Ruth1:14 "At this they wept again. Then Orpah kissed her mother-in-law good-by, [b]but Ruth clung to her."
1 Sam 18:18-21
"But David said to Saul, "Who am I, and what is my family or my father's clan in Israel, that I should become the king's son-in-law?" So (or However) when the time came for Merab, Saul's daughter, to be given to David, she was given in marriage to Adriel of Meholah.
Now Saul's daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased. "I will give her to him," he thought, "so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him." So Saul said to David, "Now you have a second opportunity to become my son-in-law."
The above are taken from the NIV bible. You can and should look them up.
Gedanken is adapt at personal attacks and casting a gay spin on the bible. One perhaps should not be too surprised, since the Devil is a liar we should not expect his children to behave any different.
The bible clearly teaches that homosexual activity is sinful and vile but that teaching is for believers not to be engaged in them. Unbelievers have already been condemned by their unbelief, regardless of whether they observe this and other teachings. Salvation doe snot come by observance of the law. So why is there such fervour in denigrating the Scriptures? Why does the gay community employ all its faculties to twist the words of the bible to try to mislead others?
I suspect deep down they fear the judgment to come and so are desperate to reason the bible and God out of existence. 'The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.' (Ps53:1) They try their utmost to misrepresent the Scriptures and mislead others in a bid to swell the ranks of the condemned.
It is not worthwhile trying to argue against such persons. "Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words." (Prov 23:9). By all means explain the teachings of the bible to those who seek but among the seekers there are many here who only seek to spoil and destroy, intent on recruitment for the devil. But God will protect his own. No one can win a soul by winning an argument and you will not lose your soul by losing one either.
So I will take the advice of Jesus, If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them."
So here it is...*shake**shake**
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Originally posted by oxford mushroom:
Now why am I not surprised that you read the NIV instead of the KJV? It's your pattern to read the watered-down Dick and Jane version of things. Good God, I pity the poor sod who has to mark the tripe you try to pass off as research.
Read the same passages again:
Ruth1:14 "At this they wept again. Then Orpah kissed her mother-in-law good-by, [b]but Ruth clung to her."
1 Sam 18:18-21
"But David said to Saul, "Who am I, and what is my family or my father's clan in Israel, that I should become the king's son-in-law?" So (or However) when the time came for Merab, Saul's daughter, to be given to David, she was given in marriage to Adriel of Meholah.
Now Saul's daughter Michal was in love with David, and when they told Saul about it, he was pleased. "I will give her to him," he thought, "so that she may be a snare to him and so that the hand of the Philistines may be against him." So Saul said to David, "Now you have a second opportunity to become my son-in-law."
The above are taken from the NIV bible. You can and should look them up.
Gedanken is adapt at personal attacks and casting a gay spin on the bible. One perhaps should not be too surprised, since the Devil is a liar we should not expect his children to behave any different.
The bible clearly teaches that homosexual activity is sinful and vile but that teaching is for believers not to be engaged in them. Unbelievers have already been condemned by their unbelief, regardless of whether they observe this and other teachings. Salvation doe snot come by observance of the law. So why is there such fervour in denigrating the Scriptures? Why does the gay community employ all its faculties to twist the words of the bible to try to mislead others?
I suspect deep down they fear the judgment to come and so are desperate to reason the bible and God out of existence. 'The fool says in his heart, "There is no God." They are corrupt, and their ways are vile; there is no one who does good.' (Ps53:1) They try their utmost to misrepresent the Scriptures and mislead others in a bid to swell the ranks of the condemned.
It is not worthwhile trying to argue against such persons. "Do not speak to a fool, for he will scorn the wisdom of your words." (Prov 23:9). By all means explain the teachings of the bible to those who seek but among the seekers there are many here who only seek to spoil and destroy, intent on recruitment for the devil. But God will protect his own. No one can win a soul by winning an argument and you will not lose your soul by losing one either.
So I will take the advice of Jesus, If people do not welcome you, shake the dust off your feet when you leave their town, as a testimony against them."
So here it is...*shake**shake**
[/b]
The less overtranslated KJV states: "Thou shalt this day be my son-in-law, in the one of the twain".
"Twain" in this instance is translated as "twice over", referring to Michal after Jonathan, since things never took off between David and Merab.
Once again, sloppy, sloppy sloppy.
And it's adept, not "adapt" you fool. You really expect to pass yourself off as educated? Talk about trying to mislead people! -
well since you asked...Originally posted by casino_king:Since you can quote the Bible, why not quote for us a verse that says: Thou Shall Not Commit Homosexual Acts?
Why is adultery in there but not homosexual acts? "Thou shalt not commit adultery" (Exodus 20:14)
Are you not like the Phrasees that add salt and pepper to the 10 comandments?
Furthermore was it "Thou shalt not commit adultery" or "Thou shalt condenm adultery?"
Are you God?
refer to Leviticus 18:22, please note that this is prefaced at the start of the chapter in 18:1 "Than the LORD spoke to Moses, saying,...."
Leviticus 18:22 You shall not lie with a male as with a woman. It is an abomination.
To make it very clear it goes on in verse 24 "Do not defile yourselves with any of these things;...."
This is not adding salt and pepper like the pharisees, it is a word spoken by the LORD. -
Well there you go. Simple and straightforward, leaving no question that it is a sin. Okay, you got me sold.