Homosexuality is a mental illness.
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Anyway, I'd just like to make the comment that I'm pleased that Icemoon for one is making the effort to provide proper debate through cogent argument instead of chanting platitudes. Watch and learn, boys and girls.
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So you're saying that God lets sins slide? Let's face it, we are talking about the same God who chucks in floods, wipes out cities and turns people into pillars of salt when he's honked off. Why not do anything here if it's a sin?Originally posted by Icemoon:Are we dealing with the biblical notion of sin? Or is sin and harm analogus now?
God tolerates murder, as in God did not throw a lightning bolt at David, but cannot be used to show murder, and by extension homosexuality, is not a sin.
Anyway, it's past midnight here in Melbourne, so I'm going to hit the sack. I'll check in on this thread tomorrow. -
Well .. you hinged your argument on the English translation.Originally posted by Gedanken:So you're equating fear to cowardice? The two are related but separate concepts. Try another example.
The following is Textus Receptus Greek Text (http://www.sacrednamebible.com/kjvstrongs/B66C021.htm):
deiloiV de kai apistoiV kai ebdelugmenoiV kai foneusin kai pornoiV kai farmakeusin kai eidwlolatraiV kai pasin toiV yeudesin to meroV autwn en th limnh th kaiomenh puri kai qeiw o estin deuteroV qanatoV
The original Greek is "deilos". Do we need a linguistic expert to tell us the meaning?
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Ged is in Down Under?Originally posted by Gedanken:Anyway, it's past midnight here in Melbourne, so I'm going to hit the sack. I'll check in on this thread tomorrow.
Maybe Brey can assassinate him.
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Different citiesOriginally posted by Icemoon:Ged is in Down Under?
Maybe Brey can assassinate him. -
No need for a linguistic expert, Icemoon. The appropriate word in your springboard example would be phobeo, not deilos. The application of phobeo as "fear" in the Bible would be passages such as:
Galatians 4:11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.
Heb 4:1 Therefore, let us fear lest, while a promise remains of entering His rest, any one of you should seem to have come short of it.
Col 3:22 Slaves, in all things obey those who are your masters on earth, not with external service, as those who merely please men, but with sincerity of heart, fearing the Lord.
Lu 12:5 "But I will warn you whom to fear : fear the One who after He has killed has authority to cast into hell; yes, I tell you, fear Him!
Php 2:12 So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed, not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling
On the other hand, an implication of delios is "softness", or (and I will freely admit this to be my own extrapolation of the combination of fear and softness) spinelessness.
Different things altogether, as I said. -
Aw, don't go spoiling things now - this debate was just getting good.Originally posted by Icemoon:Ged is in Down Under?
Maybe Brey can assassinate him.
Anyway, I really do have to cop some Z's. The couple of single malts I've had this evening are starting to make their opinions known.
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The part in blue is tricky. Vince, Plo or Mushroom .. it is your game.Originally posted by Gedanken:So you're saying that God lets sins slide? Let's face it, we are talking about the same God who chucks in floods, wipes out cities and turns people into pillars of salt when he's honked off. Why not do anything here if it's a sin?
Anyway, it's past midnight here in Melbourne, so I'm going to hit the sack. I'll check in on this thread tomorrow.
Now .. this is real cowardice.
My take on the issue is - it is not prudent to question why the sovereign God chose to threw his lightning bolt at some but not the other.
God never claimed to be fair to everyone. Justice and mercy are like ying and yang in the circle, complementing one another (wah .. I sound like a mystic now ).
When God lets sins slide, do we scream for justice or hope for mercy? If God don't let sins slide, the prostitutes will be killed not by the Pharisees' stones, but by a meteorite from heaven - courtesy of Jesus Christ.
Jesus told her - "Neither do I condemn you, go and sin no more". Obviously our lady is sinning. -
From Strongs' (na bei .. I actually have to use this toolOriginally posted by Gedanken:On the other hand, an implication of delios is "softness", or (and I will freely admit this to be my own extrapolation of the combination of fear and softness) spinelessness.
Different things altogether, as I said. )
delios has its root in deos which mean dread or timid? Strongs argues by implication that it is referring to the faithless. -
Too bad Brey is not omnipresent.Originally posted by laurence82:Different cities -
Oh, what the hell. This is worth a few minutes of sleep as long as we're having some proper discourse here.
Now we're getting to an interesting point.
Let's face it, determining what is and what isn't a sin isn't a straightforward process, is it?
Now if we pushed God's buttons like, say, the Egyptians did by going after moses and company, God would make his feelings on the issue known. On the other hand, He doesn't do that all the time, so we can't really count on that as a reliable indicator, can we?
So, if we can't go with acts of God as a guideline for sins, what we're left with is what the prophets, apostles and so on said. However, there's a lot of translation involved and a lot of artistic licence to account for (hell, we don't even know who actually wrote the Bible, do we?).
Well, that isn't going to work either, is it? After all, after major snafus like the Crusades and the Inquisition, hasn't the Church turned round and gone, "Oops, we screwed the pooch there - our bad"?
That being the case, what constitutes sin?
Okay, I don't think that a violation of any of the Ten Commandments can be questioned as a sin, right? Commandments 1 to 4 centre around paying proper respect to God, 5 is about respect to one's parents, and the last five centre around not harming others.
Where's homosexuality fit into any of these? -
That still doesn't get round the fact that phobeo is the appropriate Greek word for your springboard example.Originally posted by Icemoon:From Strongs' (na bei .. I actually have to use this tool )
delios has its root in deos which mean dread or timid? Strongs argues by implication that it is referring to the faithless.
How delios applies to the faithless is in the sense that one fails to stand up for truth or right because one is too afraid to. It is the combination of fear and inaction that constitutes delios, not just fear alone. -
Now why would he want to assassinate me? From the posts of his that I've read, he doesn't seem to be the sort to get into that kind of thing.Originally posted by Icemoon:Too bad Brey is not omnipresent. -
Sin, or het, means missing the mark.Originally posted by Gedanken:That being the case, what constitutes sin?
Okay, I don't think that a violation of any of the Ten Commandments can be questioned as a sin, right? Commandments 1 to 4 centre around paying proper respect to God, 5 is about respect to one's parents, and the last five centre around not harming others.
Where's homosexuality fit into any of these?
The Jewish thinking divides sins into two types - against God and against neighbours. If we look at the 10 commandments, we have roughly half in the first group and half in the second group (read the Hebrew Bible, the numbering in the English translation is misleading).
So where is homosexuality in the 10 commandments? -
Exactly - which of the commandments pertains directly to homosexuality?Originally posted by Icemoon:So where is homosexuality in the 10 commandments? -
It was not my intention to translate delios as fear. If it is so straightforward, why did most translation use cowardly?Originally posted by Gedanken:That still doesn't get round the fact that phobeo is the appropriate Greek word for your springboard example.
How delios applies to the faithless is in the sense that one fails to stand up for truth or right because one is too afraid to. It is the combination of fear and inaction that constitutes delios, not just fear alone.
I was trying to emphasize on the context. Seems like Relevations is referring to people who know God but afraid to acknowledge him? -
So you are saying as long as some action is not directly referred to in the 10 commandments, it is not a sin?Originally posted by Gedanken:Exactly - which of the commandments pertains directly to homosexuality? -
Good, so we're agreed that fear isn't the issue here. My read on this, and feel free to debate it, is that it's a matter of what one does with fear. Do you run away or do you have the integrity to stand up for what you believe to be right?Originally posted by Icemoon:It was not my intention to translate delios as fear. If it is so straightforward, why did most translation use cowardly?
I was trying to emphasize on the context. Seems like Relevations is referring to people who know God but afraid to acknowledge him? -
I see the Christians choosing the latter action.Originally posted by Gedanken:Good, so we're agreed that fear isn't the issue here. My read on this, and feel free to debate it, is that it's a matter of what one does with fear. Do you run away or do you have the integrity to stand up for what you believe to be right? -
Not quite - go back to my post about acts of God, what the prophets say and the Ten Commandments. What I'm saying is that there's no ruling that we can take to the bank.Originally posted by Icemoon:So you are saying as long as some action is not directly referred to in the 10 commandments, it is not a sin? -
And by equal measure I see the non-Christians taking the same action. However, to try to conveniently brush things under the carpet by saying, "They're outsiders, they don't understand" just doesn't cut it.Originally posted by Icemoon:I see the Christians choosing the latter action.
If one is to make a point, one has to defend it or at least explore the case with an opponent, pretty much as you and I have been doing in the current discussion. You've raised the point of deilos, I've addressed it, you've made your counterpoint and so on, both bringing up facts that we see as relevant to our stance. It doesn't matter that both of us remain unmoved from our positions, but you haven't just clammed up with "you don't understand" and expect to be able to run away and hide with that. I can dig it. -
Okay, if I'm in a mood to mollify I'm definitely in need of sleep. MacArthur.
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I have to agree - it is not immediate obvious like murder or adultery.Originally posted by Gedanken:Not quite - go back to my post about acts of God, what the prophets say and the Ten Commandments. What I'm saying is that there's no ruling that we can take to the bank.
The whole Christian argument rests on the premise that it is not nature but nurture. This is why a deformed person or the poor guy missing a finger is not sinning, since some people are born like that. But attempting suicide or chopping off your fingers is a sin. -
Tell us what you dream tonight and whether the Freudian interpretation is correct.Originally posted by Gedanken:Okay, if I'm in a mood to mollify I'm definitely in need of sleep. MacArthur. -
u never say kill, but u don't mind hurting them mentally, putting them thru needless psychological trauma, and giving them unnecessary misery. and indirectly, have caused many of their suicides.Originally posted by plo30360:Where did I state to kill homsexuals in order to save their soul? I'm stating telling homsexuals, homsexuality is a sin like murder or lying or any other sin.
Eternal life btw is not insignificant.
learn to read. my specific sentence was:
"something as insignificant as your belief in there being an afterlife and a judgement"
anyone can understand proper english, will know that 'insignificant' here refers to the 'belief'. Thats the way the sentence is structured.
so i'll reiterate, eternal life might be significant to one, but only if u believe in it. YOUR belief however, is not significant enough for u to gamble with the life of others. Gambling here does not necessary mean u take it. But u can still ruin it, which is gambling with their lives all the same.