Interesting talk btw Athiest Prof & Christian Student
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it's one of the most deep-seated opinion that's so detrimental to the community..Originally posted by Icemoon:ah .. earthling will disagree with you.
wonder what does shade think?
I always want to ask straights a simple question: If you think that sexual attraction can change.. Have you ever fell in love with the same gender? Have you ever find one of the same gender so attractive that you body will react (e.g., heart racing, pupil dilating, & xxxxxxx) to his/her sight alone?
I had never had a partner until the age of 29.. I came out only at 28.. Prior to that, I was denying my own sexual orientation.. Tried to go out with a lady.. Pretending to like her but my body tell me a different story.. I just can't have a reaction to this lady (btw, she's quite decent looking, not the ugly type)..
Anyway, this is Psychologist's view on this issue:
http://www.apa.org/pubinfo/answers.html
Is Sexual Orientation a Choice?
No, human beings can not choose to be either gay or straight. Sexual orientation emerges for most people in early adolescence without any prior sexual experience. Although we can choose whether to act on our feelings, psychologists do not consider sexual orientation to be a conscious choice that can be voluntarily changed.
Can Therapy Change Sexual Orientation?
No. Even though most homosexuals live successful, happy lives, some homosexual or bisexual people may seek to change their sexual orientation through therapy, sometimes pressured by the influence of family members or religious groups to try and do so. The reality is that homosexuality is not an illness. It does not require treatment and is not changeable.
However, not all gay, lesbian, and bisexual people who seek assistance from a mental health professional want to change their sexual orientation. Gay, lesbian, and bisexual people may seek psychological help with the coming out process or for strategies to deal with prejudice, but most go into therapy for the same reasons and life issues that bring straight people to mental health professionals.
What About So-Called "Conversion Therapies"?
Some therapists who undertake so-called conversion therapy report that they have been able to change their clients' sexual orientation from homosexual to heterosexual. Close scrutiny of these reports however show several factors that cast doubt on their claims. For example, many of the claims come from organizations with an ideological perspective which condemns homosexuality. Furthermore, their claims are poorly documented. For example, treatment outcome is not followed and reported overtime as would be the standard to test the validity of any mental health intervention.
The American Psychological Association is concerned about such therapies and their potential harm to patients. In 1997, the Association's Council of Representatives passed a resolution reaffirming psychology's opposition to homophobia in treatment and spelling out a client's right to unbiased treatment and self-determination. Any person who enters into therapy to deal with issues of sexual orientation has a right to expect that such therapy would take place in a professionally neutral environment absent of any social bias. -
So when did I get promoted?Originally posted by Icemoon:the three musketeers are really unique .. universalist, atheist and buddhist.
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Homosexuality was known in ancient India; it is explicitly mentioned in the Vinaya (monastic discipline) and prohibited. It is not singled out for special condemnation, but rather simply mentioned along with a wide range of other sexual behaviour as contravening the rule that requires monks and nuns to be celibate. Sexual behaviour, whether with a member of the same or the opposite sex, where the sexual organ enters any of the bodily orifices (vagina, mouth or anus), is punishable by expulsion from the monastic order. Other sexual behaviour like mutual masturbation or interfemural sex, while considered a serious offense, does not entail expulsion but must be confessed before the monastic community.Originally posted by An Eternal Now:Actually I wouldn't say that Buddhism is outrightly against homosexuality. Buddha will only point out what is not beneficial for someone, but he never condemns people who are homosexual. There is a reason why he set the rule about homosexuals ordaining, but that is another story.
But anyway I mentioned that homosexuals have lower lifespan... it was first pointed out by one of my dharma teachers, before that I didn't know. I searched the net and found out that it was indeed true.
http://specialguests.com/guests/viewnews.cgi?id=EEEZyVyFlpSUosfhlj&style=Full%20Article
Therefore, the lower lifespan does not just affect those that died from sexually transmitted disease or drug abuse causes.
Some things to ponder on....
2 things here:
1) All monks and nuns are to be celibate. A closeted homosexual will not be known as a homosexual until he had sex with a man. Which means he's not celibate anymore. What's more impt is the sentence highlighted in red above. If you want to be a nun or monk, you cannot have sex.
2) Left-handed people tend to have shorter life-span too... Why? Biological factors? Nature side of the equation (rather than nurture)? -
an article to counter your article:Originally posted by An Eternal Now:http://specialguests.com/guests/viewnews.cgi?id=EEEZyVyFlpSUosfhlj&style=Full%20Article
COLORADO SPRINGS – Family Research Institute President Dr. Paul Cameron announced today that a new study shows that the life span of homosexuals is 20 years shorter than the norm. The study will appear in a 2005 issue of the refereed scientific journal Psychological Reports (Volume 96: pp. 693-697).
Speaking on behalf of his Colorado Springs think tank, Dr. Cameron said, “Indeed, gay obituaries suggest that engaging in homosexuality costs participants between 15 to 25 years of life, suggesting that homosexuality is more dangerous than smoking or obesity and that homosexuals generally do not reach old age.”
“10,000 gay obituaries have been collected from homosexual publications. Are the obituaries listed in the gay press representative of gay deaths in general?” Cameron asks.
A new study that compared them with Centers for Disease Control data indicates they are.
The CDC reported that 9% of heterosexuals who died of AIDS were at least 65 years of age. But less than 4% of homosexuals and IV drug abusers who died of AIDS reached 65.
“These findings add substantial support to our previous findings,” said Cameron, who headed the study. “While no one has all the facts on this issue, the CDC data is about as good as it gets. These data indicate that considerable progress in medically combating HIV is being made – it’s even affecting deaths from other medical causes. Right now, the median age of death for gays in the obituaries is running near 60 – about tied with the median age of death for lesbians. Of course, the median age of death for adults is about 80 – so the 20 year hit for engaging in homosexuality that we reported 15 years ago continues to hold.”
The new study “Gay obituaries closely track officially reported deaths from AIDS” can be read in the scientific journal, Psychological Reports (2005;96:693-697).
Therefore, the lower lifespan does not just affect those that died from sexually transmitted disease or drug abuse causes.
Some things to ponder on....
http://www.aegis.com/news/wb/2005/WB050622.html
ANTI-GAY GROUPS are already touting the conclusions of a soon-to-be published study by the conservative Family Research Institute that claims being gay is as dangerous as smoking or using illegal drugs, with a New York group calling for a warning label on gays.
Paul Cameron, known for anti-gay research regularly quoted by conservatives to denounce gay rights, asserts in a study that gay men die younger than heterosexual men. Cameron based his conclusions on what he said was a review of 10,000 obituaries published in the Washington Blade, and data from the federal Centers for Disease Control & Prevention on the ages of people who die from AIDS.
"[The data] suggests there are all kinds of choices people can make. You can choose to smoke, or to have fun with illegal intravenous drugs or engage in homosexual activity," Cameron said in an interview this week.
"Certainly the data shows that homosexuality and shooting drugs seem to be among the most dangerous choices people can make. Homosexuality is a tremendous public health risk," he added.
Cameron said the study of the obituaries, which he compared to the CDC report "AIDS Cases in Adolescents and Adults, by Age - United States, 1994-2000," supports his research and shows that gays die 20 years earlier than heterosexuals.
According to Cameron, the newspaper obituaries show the median age of death for people with AIDS was 42 while CDC data concludes the average age of deaths of gay men with AIDS was 43.
Cameron then takes the AIDS deaths reported in the Washington Blade and averages them in with other deaths of gay men reported in the paper to come up with, what he said, is an average age of death for all gay men at 60 while the average age of death for adults is 80.
CDC disputes findings
Cameron's methodology is simply bad science, said Ronald Valdiserri, deputy director of the CDC's National Center for HIV, STD and TB Prevention.
"[The CDC] does not collect statistics on the lifespan of gay men," Valdiserri said. "While gay men continue to be severely impacted by HIV and AIDS, AIDS-related death data cannot be used to indicate that homosexual men live shorter lives than heterosexual men overall."
Because there is no national database that gives a count of all gay men in the U.S., "making assumptions about the group as a whole is difficult," Valdiserri added.
Titled "Gay obituaries closely track officially reported deaths from AIDS," Cameron's report appears this month in the journal Psychological Reports. The publication requires authors to pay $27.50 per page for their work to appear.
Anti-gay groups regularly cite Cameron's work to oppose gay rights. This week, the New York Christian Coalition used the most recent Cameron report to suggest gays should wear warning labels.
"We put warning labels on cigarette packs because we know that smoking takes one to two years off the average life span, yet we 'celebrate' a lifestyle that we know spreads every kind of sexually transmitted disease and takes at least 20 years off the average lifespan according to the 2005 issue of the refereed scientific journal Psychological Reports," said Rev. Bill Banuchi, executive director of the New York Christian Coalition.
Banuchi issued the press release as part of a denouncement of the first Gay Pride Day in the town of New Paltz, N.Y.
In the recent issue of Intelligence Report, the Southern Poverty Law Center labeled the Family Research Institute as "extremist." The SPLC said Cameron was the "longtime house psychologist" of the anti-gay movement and noted that Cameron said in 1985 that "extermination of homosexuals" might be needed in the next three to four years. -
Nope.. Buddhism is base on principalities.. Not on laws..Originally posted by Chin Eng:OK... I understand.... in a sense, Buddhism is more pacificist than Christianity.
In a sense, the principle we are discussing here is that of Sexual Misconduct.. Sexual Misconduct can be done by gays, straights, bisexuals, yadda, yadda, yadda.. If you understand the principle itself, who does it become not important anymore..
Some of the misconduct which fall under this principle:
1) Having too much sex
2) Unfaithfulness
3) Forcing sex upon an unwilling party
etc.. etc..
All these actions will be considered as misconduct and will lead to bad Karma, whether you are gay or straight.. -
Have you heard of A.I.? Artificial Inssemination (sp??)?Originally posted by jnwk:Okay, let's talk biblically lar. In the beginning, God made man and women. And He wants them to multiply. God made women because He knows that man desire company. With women made, God commanded them to multiply and bear fruit.
The question I would like to ask you is: Can homosexuality lead to pregnancy and bear child? If it can't, doesn't it mean against God's wonderful plan of filling the earth with people? It is definitely not pleasant to God and God did not make homosexuality. Disability/handicap is a consequences of sin. It has reflected that the earth is in a sorry state of condition. But homosexuality is consequence of sin entering earth. It is a reflection of how man desire accompaniment to fill the void in them. In my view, and biblically, homosexuality is a sin lo.
The good thing is: you do not even need sexual intercourse..
NCLR Applauds California Supreme Court Decisions in
by National Center for Lesbian Rights Monday, Aug. 22, 2005 at 7:12 PM
The California Supreme Court made legal history today by holding, in three separate decisions, that children born to same-sex couples must be treated equally to other children and thus have a legally protected relationship to both partners.
NCLR Press Release
National Center for Lesbian Rights Applauds California Supreme Court Decisions in Groundbreaking Parenting Cases
For Immediate Release
San Francisco, CA - August 22, 2005
“The California Supreme Court made legal history today by holding, in three separate decisions, that children born to same-sex couples must be treated equally to other children and thus have a legally protected relationship to both partners. These decisions are a tremendous victory for children, for parental responsibility, and for common sense.”
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This morning the California State Supreme Court issued groundbreaking opinions in three cases involving the legal status of children born to same- sex parents. The three cases are Elisa B. v. Superior Court, K.M. v. E.G., and Kristine H. v. Lisa R. The National Center for Lesbian Rights (NCLR) was counsel for Emily B., a mother seeking child support from her former partner, in the Elisa B. case and filed amicus briefs in the K.M. and the Kristine H. cases.
In all three cases, the Court held that when a couple deliberately brings a child into the world through the use of assisted reproduction, both partners are legal parents, regardless of their gender or marital status. The California Supreme Court is the first state Supreme Court to reach this issue, and its holding in these three cases inevitably will influence courts in other states.
In the Elisa B. case a same-sex couple – Emily B. and Elisa B. – had children together using artificial insemination by an anonymous sperm donor. Emily gave birth to twins in 1998, one of whom has Down Syndrome.
After the twinsÂ’ birth, the couple decided that Emily would stay home to care for the children and Elisa would be the familyÂ’s breadwinner. When the couple split up 18 months later, Elisa eventually cut off all contact and support, prompting Emily to apply for assistance from the state, which brought a child support action against Elisa. In todayÂ’s ruling, the California Supreme Court strongly affirmed the trial courtÂ’s ruling that Elisa is a legal parent who cannot simply walk away from her obligation to support the two children she agreed to bring into the world.
“I am elated beyond words that the Court recognized the reality that my children have two parents,” said Emily B. “This is a tremendous victory not only for my family but for all children born to same-sex couples.”
In its decision today, the Court held: “A person who actively participates in bringing children into the world, takes the children into her home and holds them out as her own, and receives and enjoys the benefits of parenthood, should be responsible for the support of those children – regardless of her gender or sexual orientation.”
In the K.M. v. E.G. case, a fertilized egg from K.M. was implanted in her partner E.G., who gave birth to twins in 1996. When the couple broke up in 2002, E.G. denied K.M. any access to the children and took the position that she was the childrenÂ’s only parent. In its decision today, the Court held that both women are legal parents.
In the Kristine H. v. Lisa R. case, a same-sex couple had a child using assisted reproduction. Before the child was born, the couple sought and were granted a court judgment declaring that both women were the child’s legal parents. After the couple ended their relationship 2 ½ years later, the birth mother filed an action seeking to vacate the judgment and have the court declare that she is the child’s only parent. The Court held today that the birth mother was stopped from challenging the judgment and that both women are legal parents -
Ah.. That site "sideway" most of the questions.. And then, provide a biblical answer without looking at the real world..Originally posted by jnwk:Thank you for your concern. I have done my research. This site can be trusted.
Thank you. -
If you want, you can send them some of your concern and screw them up. Clarify with them and tell them what you disagree. Then share with us here lo. It would be a great benefit to all of us here.Originally posted by earthlings73:Ah.. That site "sideway" most of the questions.. And then, provide a biblical answer without looking at the real world.. -
btw, i'm going to volunteer myself at Action for AIDS tomorrow.. to help bring the AIDS cases down among gays..
i really hope that all these efforts will not go to waste.. will be happy if the AIDS cases will drop from 30% to 10%.. And that senior minister by the name of whatever has to address the remaining % of AIDS patients who are heterosexual.. -
They will still sideway it..Originally posted by happyharvest:If you want, you can send them some of your concern and screw them up. Clarify with them and tell them what you disagree. Then share with us here lo. It would be a great benefit to all of us here.
I was reading those articles about Noah.. About how Kangaroo can hop from Mt Ararat to Australia.. Nvm, better dont say too much, else I'll become a flamer.. -
One more contribution of the day:
http://www.geocities.com/heartland_sg/
Well, if you have gay christians.. u will have gay buddhist too.. Heartland functions like Safehaven.. A place for the believers to practice their beliefs without discrimination (I know Chin Eng still doesn't like the idea )..
AEN.. I believe the Buddhists in the gay community are constantly engaging with Venerables to discuss homosexual issues (please read those articles in the website I've highlighted).. Such issues might be ignored in the mainstream set-up.. But do take a look.. Meditate on this issue.. And see whether you can have better clarity.. -
One thing I must say is that they answer question biblically.Originally posted by earthlings73:They will still sideway it..
I was reading those articles about Noah.. About how Kangaroo can hop from Mt Ararat to Australia.. Nvm, better dont say too much, else I'll become a flamer..
What kangaroo? Where? You mean the site? -
which means that the children don't even know their father.Originally posted by earthlings73:In the Elisa B. case a same-sex couple – Emily B. and Elisa B. – had children together using artificial insemination by an anonymous sperm donor. Emily gave birth to twins in 1998, one of whom has Down Syndrome.
I certainly do not want an anonymous father.
Besides, since when AI was researched and developed for gays and lesbians? -
It is really encouraging to hear people volunteering to help the society. Keep up the good work.Originally posted by earthlings73:btw, i'm going to volunteer myself at Action for AIDS tomorrow.. to help bring the AIDS cases down among gays..
i really hope that all these efforts will not go to waste.. will be happy if the AIDS cases will drop from 30% to 10%.. And that senior minister by the name of whatever has to address the remaining % of AIDS patients who are heterosexual.. -
I personally believe there are really few gay Christians out there? But then if you talk abt United State, then I do not know le.Originally posted by earthlings73:One more contribution of the day:
http://www.geocities.com/heartland_sg/
Well, if you have gay christians.. u will have gay buddhist too.. Heartland functions like Safehaven.. A place for the believers to practice their beliefs without discrimination (I know Chin Eng still doesn't like the idea )..
AEN.. I believe the Buddhists in the gay community are constantly engaging with Venerables to discuss homosexual issues (please read those articles in the website I've highlighted).. Such issues might be ignored in the mainstream set-up.. But do take a look.. Meditate on this issue.. And see whether you can have better clarity.. -
Ah.. Did I say that AI was developed for gays and lesbians?Originally posted by Honeybunz:which means that the children don't even know their father.
I certainly do not want an anonymous father.
Besides, since when AI was researched and developed for gays and lesbians?
All I was saying is simply the idea that gays and lesbians cannot reproduce (ah.. I hate the term procreate, sorry ) has been crushed with the invention of AI.. -
you will be surprised!Originally posted by happyharvest:I personally believe there are really few gay Christians out there? But then if you talk abt United State, then I do not know le.
but then many gay believers either turn to safehaven or turn away from the church or turn away from their believes altogether.. after their contant struggle with their homosexuality..
it's easier to change one's belief than one's orientation.. -
I think I will still talk with them but if they ask me to join them, I will run - never to come back again.Originally posted by earthlings73:you will be surprised!
but then many gay believers either turn to safehaven or turn away from the church or turn away from their believes altogether.. after their contant struggle with their homosexuality..
it's easier to change one's belief than one's orientation..
I will not change my orientation de - Never.
Neither will I change my belief de -Never.
Are there something gay believers have not learnt to overcome? -
That's because your orientation is consistent with your belief..Originally posted by happyharvest:I think I will still talk with them but if they ask me to join them, I will run - never to come back again.
I will not change my orientation de - Never.
Neither will I change my belief de -Never.
Are there something gay believers have not learnt to overcome?
For gay christians.. One the one hand, the Church told them to change.. But on the other hand, they can't seem to change after much struggle, leading to what psychologists called "Cognitive Dissonance".. Which lead to other psychological ailments (e.g., depression, suicide, etc).. Which is why American Psychological Association is so against "reparative therapy"..
How do you overcome something as basic as sexual attraction?
I'm assuming that you are male, and you are of a certain age (let's say above 20).. How will you body react when you meet an attractive woman?
For homosexuals, just replace the woman by man..
We do not choose who we feel attracted to.. You do not tell your mind whether to like or dislike a certain person.. You look at him/her and your body will give you signal whether you like or dislike that person.. -
Thank you for your information.Originally posted by earthlings73:That's because your orientation is consistent with your belief..
For gay christians.. One the one hand, the Church told them to change.. But on the other hand, they can't seem to change after much struggle, leading to what psychologists called "Cognitive Dissonance".. Which lead to other psychological ailments (e.g., depression, suicide, etc).. Which is why American Psychological Association is so against "reparative therapy"..
How do you overcome something as basic as sexual attraction?
I'm assuming that you are male, and you are of a certain age (let's say above 20).. How will you body react when you meet that woman?
For homosexuals, just replace the woman by man..
We do not choose who we feel attracted to.. You do not tell your mind whether to like or dislike a certain person.. You look at him/her and your body will give you signal whether you like or dislike that person..
BTW, what is "Cognitive Dissonance" and "reparative therapy"? They look familiar to me but I can't remember they mean. -
check wikipedia lah!Originally posted by happyharvest:Thank you for your information.
BTW, what is "Cognitive Dissonance" and "reparative therapy"? They look familiar to me but I can't remember they mean. -
I understand cognitive dissonance from my pedagogy lesson on constructivism. It is an important process in learning.Originally posted by happyharvest:BTW, what is "Cognitive Dissonance" and "reparative therapy"? They look familiar to me but I can't remember they mean. -
wah leow .. if everyone checks wiki then the ratings will drop liao ('cos no one asks questions)Originally posted by earthlings73:check wikipedia lah!
anyway .. thanks for your contributions today. Your "99 hits" combo on your musketeer counterpart was superb ..
Hmm .. I thought the three of you same pattern one .. this is first time the two of you disagreed so fundamentally on an issue. -
?? I'm lost. Icemoon, I dun get you.Originally posted by Icemoon:wah leow .. if everyone checks wiki then the ratings will drop liao ('cos no one asks questions)
anyway .. thanks for your contributions today. Your "99 hits" combo on your musketeer counterpart was superb ..
Hmm .. I thought the three of you same pattern one .. this is first time the two of you disagreed so fundamentally on an issue.
Who are the three?
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It's a pretty sad thing lah..Originally posted by Icemoon:wah leow .. if everyone checks wiki then the ratings will drop liao ('cos no one asks questions)
anyway .. thanks for your contributions today. Your "99 hits" combo on your musketeer counterpart was superb ..
Hmm .. I thought the three of you same pattern one .. this is first time the two of you disagreed so fundamentally on an issue.
Not all people who embrace tolerance and love support the gay cause. I personally believe it's really due to the low level of awareness of gay issues. Which lead to the saying: "you fear something that you dont know"...
Most people's understanding of homosexuality is: "It's a lifestyle issue".. Even the media say so.. The question of "nature vs nurture" was not address through rigorous research but through a little bit of assumptions here and there. And media are not allowed to put forth any information that seem to support the gay cause anyway for fear of "spreading homosexualism".. Isn't this real sad? Assume that we choose our orientation.. And spread this assumption through media to further cement this position.. Without any alternative views (censored).. Isn't this the technique they used to squeeze out the opposition too ?
Btw, I'm not at any point attacking AEN lah.. Just sharing with him/her some of those things which he/she might not be aware of.. especially those from the gay perspectives..