Interesting talk btw Athiest Prof & Christian Student
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Opps .. can't find it online.Originally posted by laurence82:Anyone read today ST, back page, on the Vatican and RC? -
Summary, from the article, Catholics disillusion of the Vatican who wove man made laws into eternal truths.Originally posted by ben1xy:can anyone summarise for me? i'm in aussie now... dun think i can get my hands on the ST
I think it doesnt apply only to Catholics. I find this a common problems among all Christian denominations, no matter how small is the denomination. -
was that referring to the sentiments of the s'pore catholics or any particular region??Originally posted by laurence82:Summary, from the article, Catholics disillusion of the Vatican who wove man made laws into eternal truths.
I think it doesnt apply only to Catholics. I find this a common problems among all Christian denominations, no matter how small is the denomination. -
The book of Romans are for the Romans who became CHRISTIANS! Like the folks in Corinth who are Christians and the folks in Ephesus who are Christians blah blah blah....Originally posted by HENG@:im wondering. 1st Cor is for the Romans. We aren't Romans so it doesn't apply to us, going by Chin Eng's logic.
Romans 1:7 To all in Rome who are loved by God and called to be saints: Grace and peace to you from God our Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ.
Romans was written to the saints (a common Biblical word for those who believe in Jesus Christ) who reside in the city of Romans.
The Biblical religious world is divided into Jews and Gentiles, ie, the rest of the world.... ie, us! OT teachings were written specifically to Hebrews, the then-chosen people of God. People who had since that time believe in Jesus are called Christians, the epistles in the NT were written to non-Jewish Christians so therefore the teachings are relevant to us.
So your friends replied on Ecclesiates yet....? -
European CatholicsOriginally posted by ben1xy:was that referring to the sentiments of the s'pore catholics or any particular region??
Rem the Catholics had a Youth Day held recently in Germany, with the Pope visiting his home coutnry to attend the event? -
ooo .. World Youth Day ... a lot of my friends went.. it was held in CologneOriginally posted by laurence82:European Catholics
Rem the Catholics had a Youth Day held recently in Germany, with the Pope visiting his home coutnry to attend the event?
anyway ... wad was the whole thing really abt ah?? the article i mean.. like wad issues?? -
ah, then why print the Bible for mass distribution?Originally posted by Honeybunz:It's for the Church Teachings. I always thought that the Bible is the best selling book in the world.. Lord of the Rings come in as distant 2nd..
another implication of what you've said is "common folk Christians should not quote the Bible at all, since they might not fully understand the meaning behind the quotes" But judging by this forum itself... hmm... -
Damn blood sucking ST and FTOriginally posted by ben1xy:ooo .. World Youth Day ... a lot of my friends went.. it was held in Cologne
anyway ... wad was the whole thing really abt ah?? the article i mean.. like wad issues??
its hard to get an article without them leeching off me
u can try at this site tho, it originate at FT
http://news.ft.com/cms/s/37015494-159d-11da-8085-00000e2511c8.html
mainly elevation of the church man made laws into eternal truths, confusion of the intepretation of the gospels with fallible judgements of the vatican
second issue is the hierarchy and level of obedience exist in vatican that put off many young catholics
i dont see this as a problem with the catholics alone, many denominations also weave their own intepretation of the bibles and elevate them as the eternal truths
the only diffeence is that the catholics are not as pushy as them
then next article i am going to post shows decline of christianity in europe, altho the article largely talks abt the pope and catholicism.. -
Saturday, August 27th, 2005
Pessimistic Pope sees Europe as unique in its drift from God
Pope Benedict XVI gestures on top of a hill at Marienfeld, a former coal mine, near Cologne, western Germany, during a mass Sunday, Aug. 21, the final day of the 2005 World Youth Day. (Associated Press)
The rather pessimistic cultural outlook of Roman Catholic Pope Benedict XVI comes into sharp focus in an address the former Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger delivered a day before predecessor John Paul II died.
The speech, translated into English and posted on the Internet by zenit.org, says Europe has excluded God ‘‘from the public conscience’’ in ‘‘a manner unknown before now to humanity,’’ radically contradicting Christianity and all other religious and moral traditions.
Like John Paul, Benedict is distressed that the now-moribund European Union constitution deleted mention of the continent’s Christian heritage, though it’s a ‘‘historical fact that no one can seriously deny.’’
Benedict says mention of Christianity wouldn’t offend Jews, who share the continent’s biblical heritage, or Muslims, ‘‘who do not feel threatened by our Christian moral foundations, but by the cynicism of a secularized culture.’’
In an aside, Benedict says terrorism is based on modern secular modes of ‘‘man’s self-authorization, and not on the teachings of the Qur’an.’’
WhatÂ’s the impact when the biblical God is relegated to the past?
Benedict endorses many good results of the Enlightenment, that period when Europe began straying from medieval Christian roots, including ‘‘freedom of religious choice,’’ the ‘‘religious neutrality of the state’’ and democracy. But he warns that many dangers lurk when culture forsakes faith and morality.
He believes campaigns against ‘‘discrimination’’ are turning into attempts to limit churches’ freedom, for instance, to morally oppose homosexual activity or limit the clergy to males. More generally, he thinks the culture seeks to suppress influences stemming from religion.
A ‘‘confused ideology of freedom leads to dogmatism, which is showing itself increasingly hostile to freedom,’’ he says.
The Pope believes that exclusion of God ‘‘leads to the self-destruction of freedom’’ and severs the roots that nourish morality and human decency, leading ultimately to ‘‘contempt for man.’’
In particular, he thinks ‘‘the gravest danger’’ of our time is that development of science and technology has not been matched by the moral strength which is the precondition for the security, freedom and dignity everyone yearns for.
Humanity has reached a point of biological ‘‘self-manipulation’’ and reconstruction, making the person no longer ‘‘a gift of the Creator’’ but ‘‘a product of our action’’ with traits selected according to various desires.
Instead of bearing the image of God, the manufactured human ‘‘is no more than the image of man.’’
He concludes, ‘‘The attempt, carried to the extreme, to manage human affairs disdaining God completely leads us increasingly to the edge of the abyss, to man’s ever greater isolation from reality.’’
What happened to Europe? Benedict doesn’t theorize but a USA Today survey of Europe’s secularization said ‘‘unprecedented affluence’’ could be one reason for secularization.
But then, how to explain the wealthy but devout United States, which isnÂ’t examined in BenedictÂ’s speech?
USA Today said one consequence of religionÂ’s decline is a dearth of children, but that could just as easily be a cause of secularization.
Since U.S. history is so different, one useful factor could be Europe’s past warfare between Christians and its church-state entanglements — which Benedict says violated the faith’s true nature.
In Sweden’s World Values Survey of 2000, only 18 per cent of Americans said they ‘‘never’’ or ‘‘practically never’’ attend worship, compared with these percentages for Europeans: France (60), Britain (55), Netherlands (4
, Belgium (46), Sweden (46), Denmark (43), Norway (42), Spain (33) and West Germany (30). Canada leans toward Europe, at 26 per cent. Most percentages increased since a parallel survey in 1981.
Most observers think the problem is most acute in western Europe, noting ChristianityÂ’s strength in Poland, Russia and Ukraine.
USA Today said the need to revive European Catholicism was ‘‘among the main reasons’’ the cardinals chose Germany’s Benedict as Pope. That’s debatable, but there’s no doubt Europe’s plight is much on the new -
Tolkien was Catholic.Originally posted by earthlings73:ah, then why print the Bible for mass distribution? I always thought that the Bible is the best selling book in the world.. Lord of the Rings come in as distant 2nd.. -
The book of Romans are for the Romans who became CHRISTIANS! Like the folks in Corinth who are Christians and the folks in Ephesus who are Christians blah blah blah....
Similarly the book of DT and LV r for Jewish who became CHRISTIANS ! And tat is really correct since the main religion is jewish before and everyone who is convinced to become later r reeally jewish before they become christians -
It is certainly not for common folks to anyhow interpret on their own without going thru proper teachings. . God never says that, the Church never says that.Originally posted by earthlings73:ah, then why print the Bible for mass distribution? I always thought that the Bible is the best selling book in the world.. Lord of the Rings come in as distant 2nd..
another implication of what you've said is "common folk Christians should not quote the Bible at all, since they might not fully understand the meaning behind the quotes" But judging by this forum itself... hmm... -
Originally posted by stupidissmart:
dunno what this fellow is talking .. sounds grammatically incorrect ..
Similarly the book of DT and LV r for Jewish who became CHRISTIANS ! And tat is really correct since the main religion is jewish before and everyone who is convinced to become later r reeally jewish before they become christians -
Even then, what is considered proper?Originally posted by Honeybunz:It is certainly not for common folks to anyhow interpret on their own without going thru proper teachings. . God never says that, the Church never says that.
The different denominations already show many people differ in intepretation of the bible and what god wants. -
then shouldnt the Bible be banned from sales, other than the Church? And all kinds of evangelist activities should be stopped since no one can understand the Bible correctly other than the "high priests" from the Church? Is Christianity going back to the position which they tried to pinned down themselves?Originally posted by Honeybunz:It is certainly not for common folks to anyhow interpret on their own without going thru proper teachings. . God never says that, the Church never says that. -
Ah so it is only for ROMAN Christians! I see. So now we know who it DOESN'T apply to!Originally posted by Chin Eng:The book of Romans are for the Romans who became CHRISTIANS! Like the folks in Corinth who are Christians and the folks in Ephesus who are Christians blah blah blah.... -
oh gosh ....................Originally posted by HENG@:Ah so it is only for ROMAN Christians! I see. So now we know who it DOESN'T apply to! -
im just playing according to his logic which says it only applies to some.Originally posted by ben1xy:oh gosh .................... -
You got his message wrongly.Originally posted by HENG@:Ah so it is only for ROMAN Christians! I see. So now we know who it DOESN'T apply to!
The epistles were each addressed to the christians in various cities, be it Rome or Corinth. They highlighted problems faced by their respective audience.
However, it does not mean whatever was said in Romans does not apply to audience in another city. They are all gentiles, just like you and me, and subjected to the same "law" (can't find a better word to use). Sexual immorality in one city is still sexual immorality in another city, no?
As an analogy, 90% of students in class A fail their Maths. 90% of students in class B fail their Science. Both were chastised for their respective poor result. However the fact that the science teacher never scold class A doesn't give the students there the right to say "your standard does not apply to us" - since all students belong to XYZ School.
Can the science teacher scold students from another school, as they are all MOE schools and sitting for same GCE paper? Debatable isn't it?
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Originally posted by Icemoon:dunno what this fellow is talking .. sounds grammatically incorrect .. and I thought I was the only one with this problem.....
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yup... the "some" here are the Christians.... while the other "some" in the OT are for the Hebrews who is a race as well as embracing a religion - Judaism.Originally posted by HENG@:im just playing according to his logic which says it only applies to some.
another example... the letters to Timothy by Paul is for Timothy as a young Christian leader in the young church, which also can be applied to as am example to how current church leaders should behave. The bulk of the letters (1 and 2 Tim) talk about what a higher level of expectation for a church leader.
Of course, it is possible for you to read the Bible superficially.
I take it that you are letting me off easily..... -
so explain the split in mainstream christianity esp in america over the issue. If it is such a clear cut matter, WHY do even pious and unscandalised bishops and priests have doubts about it?Originally posted by Chin Eng:yup... the "some" here are the Christians.... while the other "some" in the OT are for the Hebrews who is a race as well as embracing a religion - Judaism.
another example... the letters to Timothy by Paul is for Timothy as a young Christian leader in the young church, which also can be applied to as am example to how current church leaders should behave. The bulk of the letters (1 and 2 Tim) talk about what a higher level of expectation for a church leader.
Of course, it is possible for you to read the Bible superficially.
I take it that you are letting me off easily.....
Above all, let it not be said that the priests themselves are instrumental in introducing many young boys to their 1st homosexual experiences -
America is not a very good example to gauge anything. While I enjoy their culture when I am there, the entire population is extremely fragmented in their various stances. There are people who have never left their own city their entire life. You will have the extremely conservative Bible belt folks who may even be more "conservative" than me (take the Amish community for example). As you observe the population towards the coast, religion becomes more liberal. TOriginally posted by HENG@:so explain the split in mainstream christianity esp in america over the issue. If it is such a clear cut matter, WHY do even pious and unscandalised bishops and priests have doubts about it?
Above all, let it not be said that the priests themselves are instrumental in introducing many young boys to their 1st homosexual experiences
Also the fact that there are errant priests does not justify the act. Priests murder, abscond, commit adultery..... so what?
So many weekends already.... your friends have not replied????
and thanks for letting me off easily... -
i haven't had the chance to ask. I've flown from singapore now, and different time zones can be quite a hinderance. Besides, one of them thinks that the views of yours i am putting to her are actually my views and shes not really wanting to speak to me right now on grounds that i am being bigoted.Originally posted by Chin Eng:America is not a very good example to gauge anything. While I enjoy their culture when I am there, the entire population is extremely fragmented in their various stances. There are people who have never left their own city their entire life. You will have the extremely conservative Bible belt folks who may even be more "conservative" than me (take the Amish community for example). As you observe the population towards the coast, religion becomes more liberal. T
Also the fact that there are errant priests does not justify the act. Priests murder, abscond, commit adultery..... so what?
So many weekends already.... your friends have not replied???? and thanks for letting me off easily... -
Sat down with a Xtian friend last nite and went thru Romans, 1 Cor and Matthew and John. It seems the only real clear passage saying that homosexuality is a sin comes from 1 Cor, who is written by Paul. My friend pointed out 2 important things to me.
1) 1 Cor was written by Paul, and it expresses HIS views and his thoughts, not sayings from anyone else. Paul was human when he wrote this, and who is to say he didn't have his own prejudices like any other human? So the only ptatement in the Bible declaring homosexuality a sin comes from the words of a human, a sinner, who like any other human, had his own biasedness and prejudices.
2) MORE IMPORTANTLY, we looked thru Matthew and John, which covers the actual words of Jesus himself, and nowhere did I find Jesus saying that homosexuality is a sin.
Paul was a pious man, no doubt, and devoted to God, but even the mosy Godly of men have their faults, and ONLY Paul has ever said that homosexuality is a sin and that made it into the Bible. And then men mistake that as GOD or Jesus as saying homosexuality is a sin. But neither God nor Jesus ever said that, only Paul did.
As for the old testament, he told me we should no longer consider it the law because Jesus the messiah has come already and that only Jews consider it the law since they do not believe Jesus was the messiah. For Christians, only the new testament need apply.
Hence it is my personal belief that Christianity wrongly sees homosexuality as a sin because Paul who was human nontheless, wrote down his personal views, and that at no any time did God or Jesus say that it is a sin. And hence it is also justifable for many Christians who upon realising this fallacy of Christianity, to accept homosexuality as NOT a sin, and still be faithful to their religion.
That, Chin Eng, answers you.