Crucifix or Cross?
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well a protestant fren of mine says its not ok to wear a crucifix if u're not catholic but another anglican fren says it depends on your personal intepretation of the crucifix. i guess it depends on the individual....
but i think protestants n catholics should think less of the "cross or crucifix" issue n more of "how to stop killing each other in belfast" issue -
thats the thing.. if she can deliver ppl from death, that doesn't validate the death of Jesus, she isn't a diety. it contradicts everything in the bible right from the torahOriginally posted by gasband:I do not have much knowledge about theology but since you asked for any creeds, catechism or whatever....i shall post some.
She remained a virgin after the birth of Christ (Catechism of the Catholic Church, paragraph 510).
She is "The mother of the members of Christ" (Catechism of the Catholic Church par. 963).
She was "Preserved free from all stain of original sin" (Catechism, par. 966).
She is "Queen over all things" (par. 966).
By MaryÂ’s prayers, she delivers souls from death (par. 966). Mary, "...by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation.... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix" (par. 969).
"The liturgical feasts dedicated to the Mother of God and Marian prayer, such as the rosary, are an ‘epitome of the whole Gospel,’" (par. 971).
Mary, "...when the course of her earthly life was completed, was taken up body and soul into the glory of heaven..." (par. 974).
"...when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son..." (Vatican Council II, p. 420).
"Mary has by grace been exalted above all angels and men to a place second only to her Son" (Vatican Council II, p. 421).
I really do not know much so I do not dare to challenge you so please do clarify with me and tell me I read the wrong thing.
plus, she shouldn't be the subject of preaching and teaching in the first place.
again, she isn't diety. tats why.
the bible says the son of god is exalted above all angels
Hebrews 1
3The Son is the radiance of God's glory and the exact representation of his being, sustaining all things by his powerful word. After he had provided purification for sins, he sat down at the right hand of the Majesty in heaven. 4So he became as much superior to the angels as the name he has inherited is superior to theirs.
5For to which of the angels did God ever say,
"You are my Son;
today I have become your Father[1] "[2] ? Or again,
"I will be his Father,
and he will be my Son"[3] ?
whether she remained a virgin isn't really clear, cuz there was one part in the bible in matthiew, where Jesus turned wine to blood? the bible said that mary and his brothers were looking for him. but since brothers could mean anything, lets leave that out since its unclear.
but let the word of God speaks for itself,
my bible doesn't tell me she is queen over all things, but my bible tells me all authority has been given to Jesus.
i mean He is God, so why Catechism keeps making her out to be diety, since we all know there is only one God. -
can some catholic validate this please?Originally posted by dumbdumb!:action speaks louder than words. i attended some catholic function, about wearing a rope with 2 piece of plastic on it. forgot the name. sorry.
then heard this talk.. regarding prayer confession, stuff like that.
everything oso point to some saint and mary
who is the one who defeated satan? mary. she crushed him with her feet. - by right its jesus
the speaker was talking abt his marraige with his wife, and he refered mary as the heavenly matchmaker..
and about fasting. the speaker was saying someone asked him if can take ribena or not, or milo or not (catholic fast = bread and water) the speaker said "u go ask saint joseph la, he behind the church there *refering to the statue*"
and also the speaker wife gave a lil talk also. and refered to st joseph, said that he everything oso pao ka liao ( everything oso can) he can answer any prayer request.
i mean. u catholics can claim whatever you want. i believe what i see. actions speaks louder than words.
in fact the only thing that refers to jesus is probably the lil baby jesus pic on the ropey thing.
oh ya, the priest blessing the ropey thing said that anyone who wears it is given unlimited grace, cuz mother mary said so to some monk, and is garrunteed can go heaven, and anyone can also wear it, doesn't hv to be christian..
so let me ask u, Jesus die for wat? for fun issit? -
[quote]Originally posted by dumbdumb!:
"thats the thing.. if she can deliver ppl from death, that doesn't validate the death of Jesus, she isn't a diety. it contradicts everything in the bible right from the torah " Catholics are supposed to know that the subject of worship is God, or the Holy Trinity, not Mother Mary
"plus, she shouldn't be the subject of preaching and teaching in the first place. again, she isn't diety. tats why." Correct
"whether she remained a virgin isn't really clear, cuz there was one part in the bible in matthiew, where Jesus turned wine to blood? the bible said that mary and his brothers were looking for him. but since brothers could mean anything, lets leave that out since its unclear." Jesus had many names, Son of Man, Jesus of Nazareth...Son of David. Assuming Jesus as human, Jesus still is not a direct decendant of David, yet he had this name. His cousins are therefore also sons of David. Thus, the sons of David with Jesus included are considered brothers and sisters. You'll have to research into the Jewish history to convince yourself.
"my bible doesn't tell me she is queen over all things" neither does the catholic version of the bible, from your context. This i assume is found the Catechism. In the Catholic context, she is regarded as queen because she is one without the orginal sin, but more convincingly that she had followed and obeyed God all her life [something that almost no other human can do, with humility and obedience]. The book of Luke, the book of Revelations had mentioned about her. She was also present during the Pentecost.
"so why Catechism keeps making her out to be diety" please read again, Mother Mary is regarded as a saint, not a god/goddess. The trouble with people is that people don't listen and bite into each word that is being said. That is why misunderstandings arise everything we speak in haste. Quick to listen slow to speak.
"...when she [Mary] is the subject of preaching and worship she prompts the faithful to come to her Son..." (Vatican Council II, p. 420). Read this sentence again. This literally means that when Mother Mary becomes the subject of preaching and worship, she points to the faithful to her son, Jesus Christ. Meaning that Mary is not god, but points to the faithful that Christ is the one, the Messiah.
Please note that there are many Catholics who are not very "educated with Catechism of the Catholic Church", and often tells others the wrong things, practices the wrong stuff etc... Before fingers starts to shoot around, there are just as many Christians who are not very biblically educated and many things can happen, big or small, minor or not. For example, there are Catholics who still think that Mother Mary is a god. And the truth is, she isn't. These people may be either misinformed, stubborn to change their belief, no one correcting their way of thinking...
Nobody can guarantee who goes where, not Mother Mary, not the priests, not your pastors, not us, not anyone but Christ. Some ppl hav the habit of wearing the brown scapula which i think is the one you're talking about. This is for ppl who are devoted to Mother Mary who mediates ppl to Christ. Neither Mary nor the saints hav any power to answer prayers but intercedes for the ppl who pray to them. Devotion to Mary means to devote to God, while Mary herself is not god, due to her intercession for the people and pointing them to Christ. The key word here is that Mary is not god.
"so let me ask u, Jesus die for wat? for fun issit? " Do note that statements like that easily provoke ppl into a fight with you. Catholic celebrate the holy Mass, during the Liturgy of the Eucharist, to show to the ppl the love of Christ for us all when he gave himself up for us. The spiritual bread is meant to nourish the spirituality of the people who partakes of it, and grow in love for Christ and in remembrance of his holy sacrifice. It is not for fun.
One meaning of the crucifix is to remind Catholics how much Jesus had suffered in his own free will for our salvation. It also serve to remind that the way of Christ [being Christian] is the way to the crucifix [meaning that being Christian is to die with the sufferings but rise again in glory]. The way to the crucifix is the way of suffering, and to do it the way Christ did, to suffer [to carry our own crosses], to face our own deaths. This, is being Christian.
To end, it is good that people question when in doubt and ask around for the right answers, to search for the truth. Please, do ask ppl nicely, varying attitudes can vary the answers being given [when one is provoked, the mind becomes unclear]. God bless. -
hmmm... relax lah all ya religious zealots.... stop slinging mud at each other's religions(ironically, both are Chritsianity, just different intepretations)....... do u know how ugly it looks to outsiders? Dun start up a virtual belfast here man.
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neither does the catholic version of the bible, from your context. This i assume is found the Catechism. In the Catholic context, she is regarded as queen because she is one without the orginal sin, but more convincingly that she had followed and obeyed God all her life [something that almost no other human can do, with humility and obedience]. The book of Luke, the book of Revelations had mentioned about her. She was also present during the Pentecost.
then wouldn't this contradict the bible that it is said everyone has sinned?
and. i know Jesus' miraculous birth was needed for Jesus to be sinless.
if mary was borned without original sin, was there any difference in her birth to ensure that?This i assume is found the Catechism
so catechism is different from catholics? -
like i said dude.. actions speaks louder than words, you can tell me what you believe, but its what you do that counts yea?
i don't say like i am super spiritual, as a matter of fact, faith's dryin up for me. but no offence. lotsa bad experiences with caths.
mine was after my family receive Christ, thru, sad to say, my percercution and other matters, the caths came in like they owned the place and told my family lots of stuff.
she was some writer of some book.. forgot what.
all she could tell my dad was how superior the caths are, the caths were first, there are more caths churches than christian churches, oh, yea, and how many books she wrote.
was that suppose to be impressive? zZzzZ
i mean, where were the catholics when my family needed to know the gospel?
for more than 17 years of my life, the caths didn't do no sh!t to share with my family, only when my family received the Lord, they came marching in and tried to pull my family over, when i was the one who suffer. who gave them the right? -
dude dude i know that u feel let down by the caths, but hey.... there are both caths n pros who go around spreading their faith in the way u mentioned, to other religions too... right? the behaviour of the caths u mentioned brings to mind instantly a certain protestant church which i shall not name, but i think u know which one i'm refering to, so theres really no moral high ground for anybody.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:like i said dude.. actions speaks louder than words, you can tell me what you believe, but its what you do that counts yea?
i don't say like i am super spiritual, as a matter of fact, faith's dryin up for me. but no offence. lotsa bad experiences with caths.
mine was after my family receive Christ, thru, sad to say, my percercution and other matters, the caths came in like they owned the place and told my family lots of stuff.
she was some writer of some book.. forgot what.
all she could tell my dad was how superior the caths are, the caths were first, there are more caths churches than christian churches, oh, yea, and how many books she wrote.
was that suppose to be impressive? zZzzZ
i mean, where were the catholics when my family needed to know the gospel?
for more than 17 years of my life, the caths didn't do no sh!t to share with my family, only when my family received the Lord, they came marching in and tried to pull my family over, when i was the one who suffer. who gave them the right?
im even less religious than u are in a sense, but i believe that if all of you respect God, Jesus and The Virgin Mary, then at least stop this argument because its turning pretty ugly... u know what they say, don't air your dirty linen in public....... i don't think God is very happy to see his children arguing over these petty matters in his name..... -
Hey, healthy discussions about doctrines are welcomed here.... but then if its for the sake of putting down one another, then please dun huh.
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I see your point dumbdumb now that you had mentioned your past experiences with the catholics. I'm sure we all can a healthy discussion here with adrenaline levels lowered. When i had posted the above, i didn't not mean it to be at all offensive, neither was it all defensive. What i had stated is what the church is trying to teach. Note that the people don't necessary practices what that were preached, that explains the "bad" practices and i'm not going to defend for these people. As you said, the catholic went on to preach to you and your family how "superior" catholicism was, if i were you i wouldn't be at all impressed [i would probably have the very same reaction as you did].
Do understand that humans are not perfect and can make very stupid mistakes from time to time. What the caths had done to you, were wrong. First of all, we are also "driving out demons in the name of Christ", so are all of us. Like the disciples in the Gospels, they are comparing with each other from time to time, like what the churches and denominations are doing now. It is wrong to put one another down. The ideal approach is to first understand that people's actions had due to many factors, the church is not the only one. Just like now, i'm trying to let you see what the catholic church is trying to teach as nicely possible. I neither want to provoke/antagonize you nor want you to misunderstand the catholic church. The catholic church not not any superior to other churches, we are all one and the same.
While i can't explain in detail what Mary is about, esp the part about her being without the original sin which you had well pointed out, i'm sure about a few things...
We are all Christians and are thus followers of Christ, that makes us brothers and sisters. And as the name suggests, catholics worship God, not Mary, thus it is wrong to worship The Lady.
I can't understand what really happened to you in the past but i do know it is bad from the sentiments i feel in your posts. Difficult as it is, don't let hate take over, it is a burden and clouds your vision, when seeing is not always believing. I had my share of bad experiences with other churches, but i know these people approached in a very insensitive way and many other reasons. Godspeed. -
Oh ya finally i'm not arguing here, i just hope to put the flames down.
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don't worry. i know who and when to flame. zZzOriginally posted by wa|th3r:Oh ya finally i'm not arguing here, i just hope to put the flames down. -
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Some Catholics practices interpreted
not for the purpose for flaming.....see for yourself and with understanding in the light of God's Word. There is no end to arguements especially with the things of God....but the surest way is to see if we are living and conducting ourselves according to His written Word and not according to human traditions and teachings.
I come from an Anglican background and to some ppl we behave like Roman Catholics from external, but when u read through the service books and our 39 ARTICLES of religion
you will note the vast difference.
I am not saying which denomination is doctrinally superior...all can be as long as we follow God's Way and not ours. -
oh gosh is it still goin' on?
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Flaming...NOOriginally posted by HENG@:oh gosh is it still goin' on?
Discussion on diplomatic terms...YES -
so wheres a satanist to start posting his views n flame both caths n pros? im sure that'd make things interesting... at least it'd unite u guys against satanism for awhile...
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dun seem too diplomatic to me.....Originally posted by NeonTetra:Flaming...NO
Discussion on diplomatic terms...YES
its already looking like belfast without the weapons here... -
blah.. as long as they believe in only 1 triune God. His son, and the Holy Ghost i dun care..
and no worshipping of saints, mum mary who may or may not be virgin, who cares.
and no hail marys for sin. duh.. sin is cleansed only and ONLY thru what Jesus had done, not cuz of some woman going thru labour.
cuz if just cuz of Jesus' birth defeated satan, satan wouldn't hv bothered tempting Jesus cuz all is lost.
its only when Jesus died, was satan truely defeated..
and i can't stand the idea that catholics telling me mum mary is the intercessor, after all Jesus had to listen to his mum" theory. its really really erm...
Jesus is the only intercessor as stated in the bible. between man and God.
so if u believe those, its fine with me. -
go irc #christianOriginally posted by HENG@:so wheres a satanist to start posting his views n flame both caths n pros? im sure that'd make things interesting... at least it'd unite u guys against satanism for awhile...
alot sia -
so another words, catholics cannot validate this with the word of the bible? as usual.. nothign they do can really validate anything. blahOriginally posted by dumbdumb!:action speaks louder than words. i attended some catholic function, about wearing a rope with 2 piece of plastic on it. forgot the name. sorry.
then heard this talk.. regarding prayer confession, stuff like that.
everything oso point to some saint and mary
who is the one who defeated satan? mary. she crushed him with her feet. - by right its jesus
the speaker was talking abt his marraige with his wife, and he refered mary as the heavenly matchmaker..
and about fasting. the speaker was saying someone asked him if can take ribena or not, or milo or not (catholic fast = bread and water) the speaker said "u go ask saint joseph la, he behind the church there *refering to the statue*"
and also the speaker wife gave a lil talk also. and refered to st joseph, said that he everything oso pao ka liao ( everything oso can) he can answer any prayer request.
i mean. u catholics can claim whatever you want. i believe what i see. actions speaks louder than words.
in fact the only thing that refers to jesus is probably the lil baby jesus pic on the ropey thing.
oh ya, the priest blessing the ropey thing said that anyone who wears it is given unlimited grace, cuz mother mary said so to some monk, and is garrunteed can go heaven, and anyone can also wear it, doesn't hv to be christian..
so let me ask u, Jesus die for wat? for fun issit? -
u seemed more closer to mary ah? call her mum...while RCs call her Our Lady or motherOriginally posted by dumbdumb!:blah.. as long as they believe in only 1 triune God. His son, and the Holy Ghost i dun care..
and no worshipping of saints, mum mary who may or may not be virgin, who cares.
and no hail marys for sin. duh.. sin is cleansed only and ONLY thru what Jesus had done, not cuz of some woman going thru labour.
cuz if just cuz of Jesus' birth defeated satan, satan wouldn't hv bothered tempting Jesus cuz all is lost.
its only when Jesus died, was satan truely defeated..
and i can't stand the idea that catholics telling me mum mary is the intercessor, after all Jesus had to listen to his mum" theory. its really really erm...
Jesus is the only intercessor as stated in the bible. between man and God.
so if u believe those, its fine with me. -
or Notre DameOriginally posted by NeonTetra:u seemed more closer to mary ah? call her mum...while RCs call her Our Lady or mother -
hmmmm.... i dun really care about the theories, but see... your atttitude is the one which makes me doubt if u understand the true meaning of christianity.... understanding, tolerance... love thy fellow man..... because u sure sound pretty insolent... no matter what, remember u are being rude to his mother, by degratorily calling her "mum mary" so it fails to convince me how much u respect him....... if u are a christian, start behaving like one for "Christ"'s sake.Originally posted by dumbdumb!:blah.. as long as they believe in only 1 triune God. His son, and the Holy Ghost i dun care..
and no worshipping of saints, mum mary who may or may not be virgin, who cares.
and no hail marys for sin. duh.. sin is cleansed only and ONLY thru what Jesus had done, not cuz of some woman going thru labour.
cuz if just cuz of Jesus' birth defeated satan, satan wouldn't hv bothered tempting Jesus cuz all is lost.
its only when Jesus died, was satan truely defeated..
and i can't stand the idea that catholics telling me mum mary is the intercessor, after all Jesus had to listen to his mum" theory. its really really erm...
Jesus is the only intercessor as stated in the bible. between man and God.
so if u believe those, its fine with me. -
remmeber. i nv said i was a good christian. i nv said i was strong right now.Originally posted by HENG@:hmmmm.... i dun really care about the theories, but see... your atttitude is the one which makes me doubt if u understand the true meaning of christianity.... understanding, tolerance... love thy fellow man..... because u sure sound pretty insolent... no matter what, remember u are being rude to his mother, by degratorily calling her "mum mary" so it fails to convince me how much u respect him....... if u are a christian, start behaving like one for "Christ"'s sake.
the most go to hell together lor, hv a good gang bang party.
oh btw, dun bother using the "u should act like a christian routine"
at my present state of mind right now, i dun give a F*ck. i dun hv to live to please u