Euro 6 MAN single deckers
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EDS is not Mobitec I think. Need to adjust shutter speed if not comes out as lines. Probably LAWO
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Eds look like hanover also..
Most probably 45 units will go to SBST to replace the B10M DM3500 & B10BLE.
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Originally posted by carbikebus:
Eds look like hanover also..
Most probably 45 units will go to SBST to replace the B10M DM3500 & B10BLE.
Are the gas tanks on the B10BLEs nearing expiry? I know some of the Transperth O405NH CNG buses gas tanks recently expired. The OC500LE gas tanks have 20 years on them as they were built using updated technology.
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Originally posted by iveco:
Are the gas tanks on the B10BLEs nearing expiry? I know some of the Transperth O405NH CNG buses gas tanks recently expired. The OC500LE gas tanks have 20 years on them as they were built using updated technology.
Not a matter of gas tanks.
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At this rate, trying to track each minor or major design change by batch alone simply makes no sense anymore. The nomenclature has to evolve with MAN/GML/STK too:
SD configuration:
- SMB138Y - MAN Lion's City SD (Euro V), MCV eVolution > rebodied to Gemilang Mark I
- All SMB plated, SG1700U to SG1748H - MAN Lion's City SD (Euro V), Gemilang Mark I
- SG4002G - MAN Lion's City SD (Euro V, 3 doors), Gemilang Mark II
- SG1751Y onwards - MAN Lion's City SD (Euro VI), Gemilang Mark III
DD configuration:
- SMB5888H - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro V), Gemilang Prototype
- All SMB plated (except SMB5888H), SG5740C to SG5799J - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro V), Gemilang Mark I
- SG5999Z - MAN Lion's City DD L (Euro V), Gemilang Mark II
- SG5800M to SG5829G - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro V), Gemilang Mark II
- SG5830B to SG5920A - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro V), Gemilang Mark III
- SG2017C - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro VI), Gemilang Mark III
- SG5921A onwards - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro VI), Gemilang Mark IV
Articulated bus configuration:
- SMB388S, SMB80XX - MAN Lion's City GL, Gemilang Mark I
Then divide each Mark type by batches separately.
The number increases by one for each Windows 10 style update to their bodywork (Gemilang Mark V, Gemilang Mark VI, ...Gemilang Mark IX, Gemilang Mark X, etc.). Windows 10 style updates should be expected as the norm, not the exception. Hence we need to allow this nomenclature to scale until at least 2025.
There is only that many times you can call the design a facelift. You can say the same for ADL Enviro500 MMC too (their "facelift MMC" would similarly be Enviro500 MMC Mk II).
Yes, the Lion's City brand is applied retrospectively. But the marketing material and technical evidence indicates this is the manufacturer/distributor's intention and this should keep the certain bus lobbyists very happy for decades to come. And there appears to be no strict adherance to the traditional European requirements as well when it comes to naming a Lion's City product, at least if it's not integral anyway.
As for overseas units (such as Hong Kong and Sydney), you can call them MAN Lion's City if you like. Apply duck test (if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it's a duck). The overseas distributors doesn't seem to mind anyway.
At this point it is a matter of when, not if, new articulated buses from MAN and Gemilang shows up in the future. We can then call them MAN Lion's City GL (Euro VI), Gemilang Mark II and so on.
- SMB138Y - MAN Lion's City SD (Euro V), MCV eVolution > rebodied to Gemilang Mark I
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
At this rate, trying to track each minor or major design change by batch alone simply makes no sense anymore. The nomenclature has to evolve with MAN/GML/STK too:
SD configuration:
- SMB138Y - MAN Lion's City SD (Euro V), MCV
eVolution > rebodied to Gemilang Mark
I
- All SMB plated, SG1700U to SG1748H - MAN Lion's City SD (Euro V), Gemilang Mark I
- SG4002G - MAN Lion's City SD (Euro V, 3 doors), Gemilang Mark II
- SG1751Y onwards - MAN Lion's City SD (Euro VI), Gemilang Mark III
DD configuration:
- SMB5888H - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro V), Gemilang Prototype
- All SMB plated (except SMB5888H), SG5740C to SG5799J - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro V), Gemilang Mark I
- SG5999Z - MAN Lion's City DD L (Euro V), Gemilang Mark II
- SG5800M to SG5829G - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro V),
Gemilang Mark II
- SG5830B to SG5920A - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro V),
Gemilang Mark III
- SG2017C - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro VI), Gemilang Mark
III
- SG5921A onwards - MAN Lion's City DD (Euro VI),
Gemilang Mark IV
Articulated bus configuration:
- SMB388S, SMB80XX - MAN Lion's City GL, Gemilang Mark
I
Then divide each Mark type by batches separately.
The number increases by one for each Windows 10 style update to their bodywork (Gemilang Mark V, Gemilang Mark VI, ...Gemilang Mark IX, Gemilang Mark X, etc.). Windows 10 style updates should be expected as the norm, not the exception. Hence we need to allow this nomenclature to scale until at least 2025.
There is only that many times you can call the design a facelift. You can say the same for ADL Enviro500 MMC too (their "facelift MMC" would similarly be Enviro500 MMC Mk II).
Yes, the Lion's City brand is applied retrospectively. But the marketing material and technical evidence indicates this is the manufacturer/distributor's intention and this should keep the certain bus lobbyists very happy for decades to come. And there appears to be no strict adherance to the traditional European requirements as well when it comes to naming a Lion's City product, at least if it's not integral anyway.
As for overseas units (such as Hong Kong and Sydney), you can call them MAN Lion's City if you like. Apply duck test (if it looks like a duck, sounds like a duck, it's a duck). The overseas distributors doesn't seem to mind anyway.
At this point it is a matter of when, not if, new articulated buses from MAN and Gemilang shows up in the future. We can then call them MAN Lion's City GL (Euro VI), Gemilang Mark II and so on.
Have read. Two questions:
1) Was the different nomenclature for the latest design sans foglights (Mark III for SDs, Mark IV for DDs) intentional? I personally thought it would have made more sense to harmonise the numbering across bus types as much as possible, since we know SG1751Y and SG5921A have the same frontal design.
2) How can you be so certain of new articulated buses coming?
- SMB138Y - MAN Lion's City SD (Euro V), MCV
eVolution > rebodied to Gemilang Mark
I
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I'm not a fan of any SD bus, but this new MAN SD makes so much more sense than the original ones with "hair" - the "hair" serves no purpose at all (aesthetically to me it just makes it look big headed and unbalanced too) and adds to the material cost of the metal and adds cost for additional fuel to carry that deadweight around.
The A24's looked much more balanced compared to the A22's when they first came out.
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Originally posted by AntiDennisLance:
I'm not a fan of any SD bus, but this new MAN SD makes so much more sense than the original ones with "hair" - the "hair" serves no purpose at all (aesthetically to me it just makes it look big headed and unbalanced too) and adds to the material cost of the metal and adds cost for additional fuel to carry that deadweight around.
The A24's looked much more balanced compared to the A22's when they first came out.
The "hair" is meant to hide the capacitors on the European A37 Hybrids. SMRT loved the looks, so they requested for it. Yes, pretty dumb if you ask me. -
Originally posted by ND323F:
The "hair" is meant to hide the capacitors on the European A37 Hybrids. SMRT loved the looks, so they requested for it. Yes, pretty dumb if you ask me.Yeah I suppose the "hair" also differentiated SMRT's main SD from that of SBST's (mercs) for brand identity purposes. But now since everything is owned by Green Bus Co, there is even less purpose for the "hair" now.
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Originally posted by CB2883J:
Have read. Two questions:
1) Was the different nomenclature for the latest design sans foglights (Mark III for SDs, Mark IV for DDs) intentional? I personally thought it would have made more sense to harmonise the numbering across bus types as much as possible, since we know SG1751Y and SG5921A have the same frontal design.
2) How can you be so certain of new articulated buses coming?
1. Yes.
- Because the rear design has also changed. SD and DD are substantially different.
- For Gemilang Mark IV, there is also a reversion of design for the A95's rear to SG5999Z's design.
- Skipping the numbering, say for future A24s, will cause confusion.
2. The bus lobbyists got everything they wanted. LTA capitulated too easily IMO. Even colour EDS. Heck, they are the only effective "publisher" of information in town and get to control the narrative. I will be very surprised if the bus lobbyists do not try to push the boundaries further.
- Because the rear design has also changed. SD and DD are substantially different.
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
1. Yes.
- Because the rear design has also changed. SD and DD are
substantially different.
- For Gemilang Mark IV, there is also a reversion of design for
the A95's rear to SG5999Z's design.
- Skipping the numbering, say for future A24s, will cause confusion.
2. The bus lobbyists got everything they wanted. LTA capitulated too easily IMO. Even colour EDS. Heck, they are the only effective "publisher" of information in town and get to control the narrative. I will be very surprised if the bus lobbyists do not try to push the boundaries further.
Hmm. Okay.
Not to discredit your points on bus lobbyists in any way whatsoever, I do recognise you have your reasons for bringing them up, but I am just curious - (sorry to be asking many of this sort of question but) how did you conclude that bus lobbyists influenced LTA's decisions, and that LTA capitulated to them on matters such as colour EDS - as opposed to LTA themselves being the ones simply taking excessive inspiration from projects around the world and attempting to fit them into Singapore without considering feasibility?
- Because the rear design has also changed. SD and DD are
substantially different.
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Originally posted by CB2883J:
Hmm. Okay.
Not to discredit your points on bus lobbyists in any way whatsoever, I do recognise you have your reasons for bringing them up, but I am just curious - (sorry to be asking many of this sort of question but) how did you conclude that bus lobbyists influenced LTA's decisions, and that LTA capitulated to them on matters such as colour EDS - as opposed to LTA themselves being the ones simply taking excessive inspiration from projects around the world and attempting to fit them into Singapore without considering feasibility?
Where do you think LTA took their inspiration from then?
As far as past news report goes, LTA has studied Perth and London. Neither uses colour EDS (flip-dot EDS, white LED EDS and rolling blinds).
The word goes that most of the "inspiration" was taken from the two MAN concept buses which went on road trials.
TT's SG5999Z survey explicitly asked one question about the colour EDS! Guess who were the majority who answered the survey? What do you think the result for that question turned out to be?
Not hard to imagine where LTA was "inspired" and "encouraged" about the results of three-door demonstrators to order 100 more, amongst other features!
About a decade ago SMRT conducted a survey about SMB136C and the viability of Citaros. Guess how many Citaros are on the roads today? What are the recent comments about these Citaros these days?
History is repeating itself.
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Bus lobbyists, I know you are reading this elsewhere. Have fun paying your GST increase for your shiny new full-feature PIS and EDS...if it's even going to be put into good use (history shows it has not...whatever happened to the C751As and C751Bs).
Two percentage GST increase yields S$3 billion to S$3.6 billion a year. That is not enough to even cover the annual $4 billion spent annually (2015 figures) on public transport subsidies and infrastructure.
...
"One major contributing factor is the large increase in network capacity as we opened new lines and added more buses and trains."
"This huge cost increase has been borne by the Government," explained Mr Khaw. "Against such rising cost, fares have gone down by 2 per cent over the same period."
"Every dollar spent on transport is a dollar less for other expenditure – like schools, healthcare and security," noted Mr Khaw, who is also the Coordinating Minister for Infrastructure.
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
Where do you think LTA took their inspiration from then?
As far as past news report goes, LTA has studied Perth and London. Neither uses colour EDS (flip-dot EDS, white LED EDS and rolling blinds).
The word goes that most of the "inspiration" was taken from the two MAN concept buses which went on road trials.
TT's SG5999Z survey explicitly asked one question about the colour EDS! Guess who were the majority who answered the survey? What do you think the result for that question turned out to be?
Not hard to imagine where LTA was "inspired" and "encouraged" about the results of three-door demonstrators to order 100 more, amongst other features!
About a decade ago SMRT conducted a survey about SMB136C and the viability of Citaros. Guess how many Citaros are on the roads today? What are the recent comments about these Citaros these days?
History is repeating itself.
Ah okay, fair enough. I previously wasn’t clear on exactly how the bus lobbyists you speak of did their, well, lobbying. I think you've made yourself quite clear.
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
Where do you think LTA took their inspiration from then?
As far as past news report goes, LTA has studied Perth and London. Neither uses colour EDS (flip-dot EDS, white LED EDS and rolling blinds).
The word goes that most of the "inspiration" was taken from the two MAN concept buses which went on road trials.
TT's SG5999Z survey explicitly asked one question about the colour EDS! Guess who were the majority who answered the survey? What do you think the result for that question turned out to be?
Not hard to imagine where LTA was "inspired" and "encouraged" about the results of three-door demonstrators to order 100 more, amongst other features!
About a decade ago SMRT conducted a survey about SMB136C and the viability of Citaros. Guess how many Citaros are on the roads today? What are the recent comments about these Citaros these days?
History is repeating itself.
Personally, though, for the Citaro issue I would only put half the blame on lobbyists. It is one thing to take in positive feedback on the Citaro and order a batch of units, and it is another thing to keep ordering them when better alternatives have emerged rendering the Citaro no longer the top choice. The former can be blamed on lobbyists, although I am not sure it is entirely a bad thing worthy of blame. The latter, is it really due to lobbyists petitioning LTA to keep on buying Citaros?
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Originally posted by CB2883J:
Personally, though, for the Citaro issue I would only put half the blame on lobbyists. It is one thing to take in positive feedback on the Citaro and order a batch of units, and it is another thing to keep ordering them when better alternatives have emerged rendering the Citaro no longer the top choice. The former can be blamed on lobbyists, although I am not sure it is entirely a bad thing worthy of blame. The latter, is it really due to lobbyists petitioning LTA to keep on buying Citaros?
I think LTA only follow of what the 2 incumbent operators specification and also based on reliability,ease of parts and also cost.
Citaro & B9TL follow SBST
A22,A95 & Enviro500 follow SMRT.
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Originally posted by CB2883J:
Personally, though, for the Citaro issue I would only put half the blame on lobbyists. It is one thing to take in positive feedback on the Citaro and order a batch of units, and it is another thing to keep ordering them when better alternatives have emerged rendering the Citaro no longer the top choice. The former can be blamed on lobbyists, although I am not sure it is entirely a bad thing worthy of blame. The latter, is it really due to lobbyists petitioning LTA to keep on buying Citaros?
Obviously they were asking for whatever is the latest in Europe.
Had they not lobbied so hard, we would already have European production hybrid buses on the roads of Singapore for a few years.
Remember, every dollar spent on X is a dollar less for Y.
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Could the bus lobbyist bitching elsewhere about my posts please explain:
1. How were the colour EDS features of SG5999Z and SG4002G put into good use during revenue service?
and
2. Justify the extra capital and operational costs?
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
Could the bus lobbyist bitching elsewhere about my posts please explain:
1. How were the colour EDS features of SG5999Z and SG4002G put into good use during revenue service?
and
2. Justify the extra capital and operational costs?
They were not put to any use, same goes to auto ramp. You guys may have seen the same SOP for manual ramp follows for auto ramp, the driver still has to go to the rear despite the ability to deploy the ramp from console. -
Originally posted by ND323F:
They were not put to any use, same goes to auto ramp. You guys may have seen the same SOP for manual ramp follows for auto ramp, the driver still has to go to the rear despite the ability to deploy the ramp from console.Now that you mentioned that...we don't know if these buses will have auto ramps as standard.
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
Could the bus lobbyist bitching elsewhere about my posts please explain:
1. How were the colour EDS features of SG5999Z and SG4002G put into good use during revenue service?
and
2. Justify the extra capital and operational costs?
I agree with you that the colour EDS is absolutely a waste of time.
For LCD, I would also concur that it's a blind copy of HK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the motivation for trying out LCD-based EDS there is that their EDS displays Chinese characters which require very high pixel density as well as contrast for legibility. There is no such need here.
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
Now that you mentioned that...we don't know if these buses will have auto ramps as standard.
Nope. It is not in tender spec and I don't think it will ever be.
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Originally posted by CB2883J:
I agree with you that the colour EDS is absolutely a waste of time.
For LCD, I would also concur that it's a blind copy of HK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the motivation for trying out LCD-based EDS there is that their EDS displays Chinese characters which require very high pixel density as well as contrast for legibility. There is no such need here.
Our EDS is capable of displaying Chinese characters, during CNY some PTO displayed Chinese greetings.
The LCD panels are for next stops display, it will also show mrt stations at the bus stop. It is something that came out10-20 years ago in western countries. But now when everyone is using mobile phones to check, our cavemen LTA decided to copy the concept.
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Originally posted by CB2883J:
For LCD, I would also concur that it's a blind copy of HK. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the motivation for trying out LCD-based EDS there is that their EDS displays Chinese characters which require very high pixel density as well as contrast for legibility. There is no such need here.
Which LCD are you referring to?
The exterior LCD EDS that came with the two latest KMB Gemilang units are baffling. What are they going to do with these screens, play YouTube videos on them?
As for the internal PIS, I suspect that unless it is a plug and play system it is not going to work. Unless LTA forces them to make it work (and that incurs additional costs).
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
Which LCD are you referring to?
The exterior LCD EDS that came with the two latest KMB Gemilang units are baffling. What are they going to do with these screens, play YouTube videos on them?
As for the internal PIS, I suspect that unless it is a plug and play system it is not going to work. Unless LTA forces them to make it work (and that incurs additional costs).
Refer to my post above. If you have seen the tender specs, the LCD screens are to show next stops, at least 3 next stops.
It will be plug and play, using VDV300/301 protocol. But whether LTA has procure the protocol is another thing. Full system is expected to work by this year or next year. As for now, it will be half fked.