Tri-door MAN Lion City at SITEC 2016
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Originally posted by carbikebus:
Wei Teck,For a start you can try 386 especially after 1945hrs🤗 LTA approved schedule 👌�
Will give it a try...
But at the moment, I still feel that Citaro is better for feeders
& A22s should be use for trunks/express svc. -
Originally posted by TIB429E:
Ahh I see I see...
But still, it would be good if they(MAN) modify the platform to almost flat..or probably just stick back to 2 doors product, with only low entry feature.
Well of course Mercedes could try to use their Citaro LE, but that seems to have an even steeper slope than what you will find in the fully low floor buses we have here or even the Scania K230UBs.Plus, the seats at the rear are located on an additional platform that has quite a huge step to the aisle, this is on top of the aisle located at the raised floor portion. What this means is that pax will have to climb the 2 steps to the raised floor, and then another large step onto the seats, this huge additional step to the seats may slow things down during boarding or alighting in an already bus that already has two steps to the rear portion, plus the last row is situated very high up. In short, the Citaro LE has lots of steps for pax to navigate than it may seem at first glance.
Parts commonality wise, the Citaro LE doesn't come in the 6.4l engine which is used in Citaros here, and lastly, there doesn't seem to be a 3 door RHD version of the bus.
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Originally posted by TIB429E:
Will give it a try...
But at the moment, I still feel that Citaro is better for feeders
& A22s should be use for trunks/express
svc. The problem with Voith Citaro that use the 6.4l engine is the delay on the first gear..But again 2nd and 3rd gear make up for the torqueless acceleration..That's what ZF Citaro has an advantage over it.
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Originally posted by TIB429E:
Ahh I see I see...
But still, it would be good if they(MAN) modify the platform to almost flat..or probably just stick back to 2 doors product, with only low entry feature.
IMO if the raised platform is proven to be an inevitable design condition, the tradeoff is actually pretty worth it... Coz anyways it makes little difference for those who are not as physically able when you compare them with taking current LE buses.
But indeed, it would be good if they can find a workaround... It is an LF chassis after all
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You better hope another manufacturer (chassis or bodywork) is able to come up with something similar or better, even if it is not Mercedes-Benz.
You do realize that if MAN/GML is the only one who is able to come with this concept (and presumably they have patented the method), then they will be the only supplier who fits the required specifications and can afford to charge a high premium.
If the SD and DD concept buses are jointly tendered, you can expect a de facto lock-in contract for years to come with MAN/STK/GML (A22 + A95 and perhaps even + A24).
This will have an impact on fares in the long run as more capital costs will be required to acquire these new buses. $4 billion worth of operating subsidy and growing is neither sustainable nor acceptable to LTA in the long run. It will get worse with fares going down due to the current formula which PTC is trying to get rid of.
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
You better hope another manufacturer (chassis or bodywork) is able to come up with something similar or better, even if it is not Mercedes-Benz.
You do realize that if MAN/GML is the only one who is able to come with this concept (and presumably they have patented the method), then they will be the only supplier who fits the required specifications and can afford to charge a high premium.
If the SD and DD concept buses are jointly tendered, you can expect a de facto lock-in contract for years to come with MAN/STK/GML (A22 + A95 and perhaps even + A24).
This will have an impact on fares in the long run as more capital costs will be required to acquire these new buses. $4 billion worth of operating subsidy and growing is neither sustainable nor acceptable to LTA in the long run. It will get worse with fares going down due to the current formula which PTC is trying to get rid of.
In the case no one else could... I wouldnt want 2-door buses to continue running on the roads of a 6.9 mil to be nation, for the novelty of lower fares...
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
In the case no one else could... I wouldnt want 2-door buses to continue running on the roads of a 6.9 mil to be nation, for the novelty of lower fares...
Seriously these buses and the BSEP one actually for Singaporeans or the sums that make up the 6.9m?Ive seen Filipinos and Northern Indian harassed Bus Captains before in front of my bloody eyes
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
In the case no one else could... I wouldnt want 2-door buses to continue running on the roads of a 6.9 mil to be nation, for the novelty of lower fares...
You may be okay with Melbourne bus fares ($3.90), but many Singaporeans are not.
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
You better hope another manufacturer (chassis or bodywork) is able to come up with something similar or better, even if it is not Mercedes-Benz.
You do realize that if MAN/GML is the only one who is able to come with this concept (and presumably they have patented the method), then they will be the only supplier who fits the required specifications and can afford to charge a high premium.
If the SD and DD concept buses are jointly tendered, you can expect a de facto lock-in contract for years to come with MAN/STK/GML (A22 + A95 and perhaps even + A24).
This will have an impact on fares in the long run as more capital costs will be required to acquire these new buses. $4 billion worth of operating subsidy and growing is neither sustainable nor acceptable to LTA in the long run. It will get worse with fares going down due to the current formula which PTC is trying to get rid of.
I don't think MAN will suddenly charge a high premium, doing a business isn't about charging customers as high as possible but giving the best solutions to them.
I am sure that MAN will be able to give a competitive price as they now have to be wary of other competitors who may adapt MAN's idea to their own products.
One thing I have to say is that while you know a lot about the industry, you tend to be pessimistic regarding BCM, their operators and bus purchasing under BCM due to your experiences overseas which while some aspects of it are relevant to Singapore's context, the full picture may not be as pessimistic as you think due to the differing cultures and domestic economic realities.
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How about Volvo B9L?
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
You may be okay with Melbourne bus fares ($3.90), but many Singaporeans are not.
I'm rly not sure of where you stand now...
First you say fleet diversity jacks prices up... You bring in your avalanche of Aussie examples of such...
YET now you say fleet standardisation results in monopolisation on supplier side... Ironically you hypothesise the scenario that you yourself said was the result of fleet diversity (Melbourne)...
Stuck in a spot arent we
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
I don't think MAN will suddenly charge a high premium, doing a business isn't about charging customers as high as possible but giving the best solutions to them.
I am sure that MAN will be able to give a competitive price as they now have to be wary of other competitors who may adapt MAN's idea to their own products.
One thing I have to say is that while you know a lot about the industry, you tend to be pessimistic regarding BCM, their operators and bus purchasing under BCM due to your experiences overseas which while some aspects of it are relevant to Singapore's context, the full picture may not be as pessimistic as you think due to the differing cultures and domestic economic realities.
is MAN not a business? which business wouldn't want maximum profit? if they are the only one who can do it (or at least meet LTA specifications), and if LTA thinks that way too, then they are in a good position to decide prices.
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
I'm rly not sure of where you stand now...
First you say fleet diversity jacks prices up... You bring in your avalanche of Aussie examples of such...
YET now you say fleet standardisation results in monopolisation on supplier side... Ironically you hypothesise the scenario that you yourself said was the result of fleet diversity (Melbourne)...
Stuck in a spot arent we
i think we can agree balance is key. B9TL/A95/E500/A22/Citaro for long term seems OK. I'd trim one of the DD types if I could though. too many types reduces savings from economies of scale, too few types increases the purchase prices of buses. the desirable situation is having just enough diversity and compettition for the supply of buses in order to keep a lid on prices.
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Originally posted by TIB868X:
i think we can agree balance is key. B9TL/A95/E500/A22/Citaro for long term seems OK. I'd trim one of the DD types if I could though. too many types reduces savings from economies of scale, too few types increases the purchase prices of buses. the desirable situation is having just enough diversity and compettition for the supply of buses in order to keep a lid on prices.
Great, so let's use ADL and A95 for DDs, Volvo loses by clear margin on customisation.
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Originally posted by TIB868X:
i think we can agree balance is key. B9TL/A95/E500/A22/Citaro for long term seems OK. I'd trim one of the DD types if I could though. too many types reduces savings from economies of scale, too few types increases the purchase prices of buses. the desirable situation is having just enough diversity and compettition for the supply of buses in order to keep a lid on prices.
Yea,Fine example is GA,Use Citaros and B9TLs yet many breakdown buses can't meet the ready to use deadline until kena fine?
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Originally posted by TIB868X:
is MAN not a business? which business wouldn't want maximum profit? if they are the only one who can do it (or at least meet LTA specifications), and if LTA thinks that way too, then they are in a good position to decide prices.
My friend, maximising profit in the long term is not about maximising prices. This is not how business is conducted unless you are a monopoly (and are certain about it*). Maximising profit in this case can be achieved by having a good product, priced competitively and good working relationship and after sales care so that customers will go back to you for future orders, ie creating a win-win situation for both you and your customer. So I am certain MAN knows how to conduct a business in a similar manner, otherwise they wouldn't be winning an increasing number of orders in the region.
On a side note, as another example against your maximising profit vs maximising price misconception, though not related and not relevant to this industry, for a price elastic product like fruit juice, you actually would lower your price (without going below cost) to get customers, hence maximising profits by getting more customers. This is basic economics 101.
*This is a very important point, for an elaboration, see previous post by me.
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
Great, so let's use ADL and A95 for DDs, Volvo loses by clear margin on customisation.
Volvo actually has more room for customisation than ADL. Its just that customers in Singapore and HK choose the same body manufacturer for the B9TL. You could fit whatever body that suits your need on the B9TL, but for ADL, you are pretty much stuck with their body.
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Originally posted by SBS351M:
Volvo actually has more room for customisation than ADL. Its just that customers in Singapore and HK choose the same body manufacturer for the B9TL. You could fit whatever body that suits your need on the B9TL, but for ADL, you are pretty much stuck with their body.
No as in the CHASSIS leaves little room for modification...
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Originally posted by carbikebus:
How about Volvo B9L?
I don't think any 3 door SDs should ever be introduced. But I do hope that LTA will stop buying Citaros and just use Volvo B9L, B9TL, MAN A22, A95.
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Originally posted by sgbuses:
You may be okay with Melbourne bus fares ($3.90), but many Singaporeans are not.
I don't think many Singaporeans would be fine with even $1 minimum bus fare!
LTA seriously shouldn't reduce the bus fares. Keeping them the same would be better, so that commuters won't have to pay $3.90 bus fares in the future.
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Originally posted by SBS3004X:
I don't think many Singaporeans would be fine with even $1 minimum bus fare!
LTA seriously shouldn't reduce the bus fares. Keeping them the same would be better, so that commuters won't have to pay $3.90 bus fares in the future.
think of those having low income. They will be more than happy when fares drop. Last time feeder svc only 15 cents you know. -
Originally posted by SBS351M:
Well of course Mercedes could try to use their Citaro LE, but that seems to have an even steeper slope than what you will find in the fully low floor buses we have here or even the Scania K230UBs.Plus, the seats at the rear are located on an additional platform that has quite a huge step to the aisle, this is on top of the aisle located at the raised floor portion. What this means is that pax will have to climb the 2 steps to the raised floor, and then another large step onto the seats, this huge additional step to the seats may slow things down during boarding or alighting in an already bus that already has two steps to the rear portion, plus the last row is situated very high up. In short, the Citaro LE has lots of steps for pax to navigate than it may seem at first glance.
Parts commonality wise, the Citaro LE doesn't come in the 6.4l engine which is used in Citaros here, and lastly, there doesn't seem to be a 3 door RHD version of the bus.
Hmm..don't really get what you mean. But I think it's possible to just simply add a "flat platform" on a full low floor buses right? It need not be that high actually...
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Frankly speaking, there is no need for 3 doors SD. Less seatings n the last door won't benefit much ppl. Ppl seated near the middle door will likely to exit from the middle exit. No of standees at the rear is usually less than 10. N that step is so high. (Look similar to those private PPSS or CDS buses). You won't be able to exit fast also because of the high steps
DD with 3rd door will be fine though.
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what if its a bendy with 4 doors?
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Lyout also affcts flw of pax. Can try remve seats & re-position doors.