Originally posted by array88:Sunday night observations at Bukit Timah Rd (Little India MRT) towards Woodlands Road, between 2110 hrs and 2215 hrs
There seems to be some disagreements in this forum regarding the utility of 170, so I went to observe its loading from Little India (together with all other services there). I thought the peak would be at night from 10pm onwards, but it seems that I'm wrong - it's probably much earlier at 6-8pm instead.
Some of these figures below are just estimations and may be extremely inaccurate, as there are usually multiple buses arriving at this bus stop together, and it's also hard for me to count the no. of pax on the upper decks of DDs. (My method of estimation on DDs: Check no. of people on the left side of upper deck, assume same no. of ppl on both sides, then plus those on lower deck)
Note: The previous bus stop (Rochor MRT) has slightly less pax boarding, but still significant.
2110 67 SD: [+0] 5
2111 170A SD: [+16] 24
2111 170 SD: [+20-1] 21 (A crowd just crossed the road after prev. 170A left, hence still have 20 pax boarding. They are probably not travelling to JB)
2113 851 SD: [+6-1] 26
2113 66 DD: [+5] est.25~30
2115 48 SD: [+13-2] 19
2115 980 SD: [+22] 35~40 (~8 standees)
2117 56 SD: [+5-2] 17
2117 960 DD: [+25-2] est.65
2117 67 DD: [+3-1] est.22
(A word on 67: Apparently most loading is not from Little India MRT, but Serangoon Rd/Jln Besar. But yes it does seem to be hit badly by DTL2)
2122 57 SD: [+5-5] 15
2122 851 SD: [+6-4] 20
2124 170A SD: [+9] 16
2125 980 SD: [+15] est.30~40
2126 166 DD: [+8-1] est.35
2127 66 DD: [+11] est.30
2128 48 SD: [+?] 14 (Was not able to count no. of pax boarding, as I was blocked by 66 in front)
2129 170 SD: [+9] 26
2129 67 SD: [+7] 27
2131 960 DD: [+43-5] est.73
2132 67 DD: [+11-1] est.26
2135 166 DD: [+18] est.25~30
2135 56 SD: [+8] est.30
2136 57 SD: [??] est.24
2136 851 SD: [+2-3] est.30
2137 980 SD: [+18-3] est.50
2138 48 SD: [-6] 3
2138 66 DD: [+19] est.40
2138 67 SD: [+2] 9
2139 56 SD: [+3] 8
2140 960 DD: [+36] est.50~60
2140 851 SD: [+5] est.15
2141 66 DD: [+1-2] est.5~10
2141 170A SD: [+14-1] 28
2142 66 DD: [+1] est.4~7
2145 67 SD: [+2-5] 9
2145 166 DD: [+13] est.30~35
2146 980 SD: [+19-6] 43
2148 48 SD: [+5-3] 16
2148 960 DD: [+21] est.55~60
2149 57 SD: [+14-1] 28
2150 66 DD: [+7-5] est.18~25
2153 67 DD: [-1] est.27~33
2155 56 SD: [+6-5] 22
2155 980 SD: [+25-1] 35~40
2155 851 SD: [+7] 30~35
2157 48 SD: [+1-4] 8
2158 960 DD: [+32-2] est.65
2159 66 DD: [+3] 15~20
2159 166 SD: [+12] 23
2200 980 SD: [+10] 24
2201 67 DD: [+5-2] est.20~25
2203 170A SD: [+6-4] 14~17
2204 851 SD: [+5] 32
2206 960 SD: [+10-2] 22
2207 980 SD: [+12-6] 19
2209 66 DD: [+13-3] est.35
2210 56 SD: [+4-1] 12
2212 57 SD: [+8-10] 24~29
2212 980 SD: [+8] 26~29
2214 48 SD: [??] 5~10
2214 170 SD: [+10-2] 30
2214 166 SD: [+12] 25~30
2215 67 DD: [+11-1} 37I stopped recording here because: 1) Loading seems to be dying (maybe it will pick up again at 11pm or so, but I really don't know); 2) I was tired and wanted some rest.
My conclusions:
- Even with erratic frequency, 170/A still has SD loading only. Loading might be better from 6-8pm but I'm not sure.
- 67 has been hit heavily by DTL2 - what I observed was actually SD loading. Guess DDs are there for the Tampines-Little India sector with better loading.
- 960 has also been impacted. Previously bendies and DDs would be packed to the door. (Maybe it's due to the wrong timing)
- 980 seems to be doing quite well. In fact it has the best loading among the SD services.Recommendations:
- It does make sense for 170 to be cut to Bukit Panjang Int, provided if there's still space.
- However, if that is done, there needs to be fleet addition for 960 on weekends. Based on my knowledge, most Indian workers take 170 to their dorms between BPJ and Kranji, so they will turn to 960. From above, 960 currently has 60-70 pax between 9-10 pm, and with pax from 170, it can easily hit 90-100 pax.
- The remaining pax travelling to Bt Timah Rd / Upp Bt Timah Rd can take 67, which will improve its utility between CCK and Little India.Just my two cents worth.
Your observations are similar to mine. I thought weekend loading would be better as some claimed, but doesn't seem so. Please note 6-8pm is definitely not the peak loading as workers will eat dinner and leave between 8-10 pm from Little India area.
It is simple, most of them now take DTL2 to BPJ. Those who want to take bus opt for 960. Hence, you still see high loading on 960. 66/67 loading is poor. Your estimates are higher, because if you ever notice more people sit on the left of upper deck than on the right side. So you can still reduce some numbers. 170/A as I have always said will have some 20-30 pax throughout its route until it hits BPJ. + once 171, 961 kick in along the way, loading gets even further split.
loadings for 170 from Ban San To Woodlands Rd quite low leh
Loading on svc 170 from Little India MRT @ 17.25 Mon 27/02
Little India MRT -- 23 (11/-2)
Dunearn/Bukit Timah Road -- 25 (-1/3), 26 (-2/3), 22 (-6/2) it took the bus 09 minutes to cross Newton Circus, 23 (-3/4), 23 (-3/3), 22 (-1/0), 22 (-2/2), 21 (-3/2) Stevens MRT, 19 (-2/0), 21 (0/2), 21 (-4/4) Botanic Gardens MRT, 23 (-1/3), 20 (-4/1), 17 (-3/0) Tan Kah Kee MRT, 22 (0/5), 25 (0/3), 24 (-3/2) Sixth Avenue, 22 (-2/0), 25 (0/3), 24 (-3/2), 31 (-2/9) King Albert MRT, 32 (-1/2)
* Please note from the start till reaching Jalan Anak Bukit, average loading is = 22 pax, peak loading - 32 pax (only last 2 stops of Bukit Timah), consistent with what I have been saying
Jalan Anak Bukit -- 34 (-5/7)
Upper Bukit Timah Road -- 35 (-6/7) Beauty World, 31 (-6/2), 29 (-4/2) Bef Old Jurong Road, 28 (-1/0), 26 (-4/2) aft Hume, 26 (-2/2), 28 (-2/4) Hillview MRT, 26 (2/0), 26 (-1/1), 27 (-2/3) Cashew MRT, 25 (-2/1), 24 (-1/0)
* 973 was waiting to turn left from Hume when 170 crossed it. Less than 5 pax on board. It overtook 170 at Hillview with only 2 people on board.
Bukit Panjang MRT -- 44 (-8/28)
** Time check: bus in front = (14 min), bus behind = (15 min,28 min (+13) )
** 961 (06 min), bus behind (05 min, 14 min (+09) )
** 178 (06 min), bus behind (11 min, 23min (+12) )
** 67 (03 min), bus behind (03 min, 11 min (+08) )
** 171 (07 min), bus behind (03 min, 12 min (+09) )
Woodlands Road -- 46 (-2/4), 47 (-1/2). I alighted here. Was too bored already!!
Loading in Bukit Timah = 17 to 32 pax
Loading in Upper Bukit Timah = 24 to 35 pax.
** Hope this explains... also note that there wasn't any bus right in front, so 170 got bulk of the loading here.
Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:Loading on svc 170 from Little India MRT @ 17.25 Mon 27/02
Little India MRT -- 23 (11/-2)
Dunearn/Bukit Timah Road -- 25 (-1/3), 26 (-2/3), 22 (-6/2) it took the bus 09 minutes to cross Newton Circus, 23 (-3/4), 23 (-3/3), 22 (-1/0), 22 (-2/2), 21 (-3/2) Stevens MRT, 19 (-2/0), 21 (0/2), 21 (-4/4) Botanic Gardens MRT, 23 (-1/3), 20 (-4/1), 17 (-3/0) Tan Kah Kee MRT, 22 (0/5), 25 (0/3), 24 (-3/2) Sixth Avenue, 22 (-2/0), 25 (0/3), 24 (-3/2), 31 (-2/9) King Albert MRT, 32 (-1/2)
* Please note from the start till reaching Jalan Anak Bukit, average loading is = 22 pax, peak loading - 32 pax (only last 2 stops of Bukit Timah), consistent with what I have been saying
Jalan Anak Bukit -- 34 (-5/7)
Upper Bukit Timah Road -- 35 (-6/7) Beauty World, 31 (-6/2), 29 (-4/2) Bef Old Jurong Road, 28 (-1/0), 26 (-4/2) aft Hume, 26 (-2/2), 28 (-2/4) Hillview MRT, 26 (2/0), 26 (-1/1), 27 (-2/3) Cashew MRT, 25 (-2/1), 24 (-1/0)
* 973 was waiting to turn left from Hume when 170 crossed it. Less than 5 pax on board. It overtook 170 at Hillview with only 2 people on board.
Bukit Panjang MRT -- 44 (-8/28)
** Time check: bus in front = (14 min), bus behind = (15 min,28 min (+13) )
** 961 (06 min), bus behind (05 min, 14 min (+09) )
** 178 (06 min), bus behind (11 min, 23min (+12) )
** 67 (03 min), bus behind (03 min, 11 min (+08) )
** 171 (07 min), bus behind (03 min, 12 min (+09) )
Woodlands Road -- 46 (-2/4), 47 (-1/2). I alighted here. Was too bored already!!
Loading in Bukit Timah = 17 to 32 pax
Loading in Upper Bukit Timah = 24 to 35 pax.
** Hope this explains... also note that there wasn't any bus right in front, so 170 got bulk of the loading here.
Candidate to start from Gali Batu-Larkin instead?
Originally posted by carbikebus:Candidate to start from Gali Batu-Larkin instead?
No should be BPJ - Larkin unless DTL2 is extended to Gali Batu which I don't think is possible.
Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:No should be BPJ - Larkin unless DTL2 is extended to Gali Batu which I don't think is possible.
But it seem like that there are lot of stopping at bus stops. Overall the loading is still ok. You can't ask for each bus to be full or expect to chop that bus service just because it carry 20-30 paxes ? There are alternative but frequency for sv67/961 are also erratic.
And u did not mention 170A? So no 170A bus at all ?
Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:No should be BPJ - Larkin unless DTL2 is extended to Gali Batu which I don't think is possible.
Hi mr busanalyser, 170 is unlikely to start from BPJ due to the tight spaces in BPJ interchange. Cheers. Thanks.
Originally posted by lemon1974:But it seem like that there are lot of stopping at bus stops. Overall the loading is still ok. You can't ask for each bus to be full or expect to chop that bus service just because it carry 20-30 paxes ? There are alternative but frequency for sv67/961 are also erratic.
And u did not mention 170A? So no 170A bus at all ?
Hi mr lemon1974, MRT may have stolen 170 loading which has sort of dropped a bit significantly as compared to the days where there is no MRT. However, this does not mean the route will be shortened. Cheers. Thanks.
Originally posted by lemon1974:But it seem like that there are lot of stopping at bus stops. Overall the loading is still ok. You can't ask for each bus to be full or expect to chop that bus service just because it carry 20-30 paxes ? There are alternative but frequency for sv67/961 are also erratic.
And u did not mention 170A? So no 170A bus at all ?
170A did not show on my app.
The discussion was on which services to rationalize for DTL2. Every bus gets 20-30 pax during peak hours so that's what I said before. If that's the logic, then no need for any rationalization!!
Perhaps can do some loading observation on 160 too? See if there is significant demand from Gali Batu / YT area to across the border. That can probably help to determine the importance of 170 for that sector.
Originally posted by AJQZC:Perhaps can do some loading observation on 160 too? See if there is significant demand from Gali Batu / YT area to across the border. That can probably help to determine the importance of 170 for that sector.
I am more interested in tha BPJ - Bukit Timah sector that has an exodus of services 67, 170/A, 171, 178, 961 running in parallel and all with 20-30 pax... 160 route is unique... I wouldnt touch it.
Originally posted by lemon1974:But it seem like that there are lot of stopping at bus stops. Overall the loading is still ok. You can't ask for each bus to be full or expect to chop that bus service just because it carry 20-30 paxes ? There are alternative but frequency for sv67/961 are also erratic.
And u did not mention 170A? So no 170A bus at all ?
Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:170A did not show on my app.
The discussion was on which services to rationalize for DTL2. Every bus gets 20-30 pax during peak hours so that's what I said before. If that's the logic, then no need for any rationalization!!
Some observations on 961 from Queensway to Bukit Timah (slightly after evening peak):
- Most pax were long-distance travelers from Bukit Merah (or even city) to Bukit Timah and beyond. There were minimum boarding and alighting activities along Queensway and Farrer Rd. However, 1/4 of pax alighted at Tan Kah Kee DTL.
- Loading stayed at around 30 pax all the way up to TKK. Considering that it was already past 7am when I boarded, loading at 5-6pm may be higher.
- Even if 961 is to be rationalized, the link between Bukit Timah and city (or at least Bukit Merah) needs to be preserved.
Originally posted by array88:Some observations on 961 from Queensway to Bukit Timah (slightly after evening peak):
- Most pax were long-distance travelers from Bukit Merah (or even city) to Bukit Timah and beyond. There were minimum boarding and alighting activities along Queensway and Farrer Rd. However, 1/4 of pax alighted at Tan Kah Kee DTL.
- Loading stayed at around 30 pax all the way up to TKK. Considering that it was already past 7am when I boarded, loading at 5-6pm may be higher.
- Even if 961 is to be rationalized, the link between Bukit Timah and city (or at least Bukit Merah) needs to be preserved.
Two ideas I can think of to rationalize 961 -- either:
(1) Cut/split the sector north of Bt Timah (say, around Beauty World); this can be in the form of merging with 41, 67 (split) or some other method. Downside is the increased load on 170/178/960 at Mandai;
(2) Make a stretch along either UBT Rd or Woodlands Rd or both express and allow transfer to 170/178 around UBT. Both would improve frequency reliability and reduce duplication to some extent.
Btw any further discussions of this should be at the DTL2 rationalization thread, so best be back to topic.
Originally posted by AJQZC:Two ideas I can think of to rationalize 961 -- either:
(1) Cut/split the sector north of Bt Timah (say, around Beauty World); this can be in the form of merging with 41, 67 (split) or some other method. Downside is the increased load on 170/178/960 at Mandai;
(2) Make a stretch along either UBT Rd or Woodlands Rd or both express and allow transfer to 170/178 around UBT. Both would improve frequency reliability and reduce duplication to some extent.
Btw any further discussions of this should be at the DTL2 rationalization thread, so best be back to topic.
Not sure why 961 should be rationalized. Route quite unique and will inconvenience more pax when there are other services running in parallel to other services and DTL2 that should be first considered for rationalization.
Loading on sv 700 SD @ 17.20 hours from Stamford St.
Stamford St -- 15 (0/3), 16 (-3/4), 16 (-3/3)
Dhoby Ghaut MRT -- 30 (-1/15)
Penang Road -- 33 (-1/4)
Somerset MRT -- 37 (-4/8)
Orchard Turn -- 40 (-1/4), 45 (0/5)
Scotts Road -- 55 (-5/15), 58 (0/3), 66 (-2/10) Newton MRT
time check: bus in front = 12 min, bus behind = 11 mins.
Dunearn/BT Road -- 70 (-1/5) bus packed to door but no one left behind, 60 (-10/0), 46 (-16/2), 43 (-5/2), 42 (-4/3) Stevens MRT
* 36 pax alighted along Dunearn Road
Whitley Road -- 43 (-6/7)
PIE
Petir Road -- 45 (0/2), 46 (-2/3), 35 (-15/4), 33 (-6/4)
Pending Road -- 18 (-18/3)
Bukit Panjang Road -- 18 (-2/2), 14 (-4/0)
** sv 700 still has considerable loading along Orchard-Stevens-Bukit Panjang. I am not sure why they want to rationalize 700. In fact, 700 is still operating with 4 DDs.
** Unlike other Bukit Timah services that hover around 20-30 pax, and we say still should not be rationalized, 700 is in fact getting on average 40-45 pax and even touches 70 pax (DD worthy) at Newton
** The above loading could be a one off, but the frequency seems consistent at 10-12 mins/bus. So unlike 190/972 is not coming at 03-05 mins frequency.
** There isn't high loading (just 10 pax) in total between Petir Road and BPJ, so not sure why they needed one more service 973 to cover this.
Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:Loading on sv 700 SD @ 17.20 hours from Stamford St.
Stamford St -- 15 (0/3), 16 (-3/4), 16 (-3/3)
Dhoby Ghaut MRT -- 30 (-1/15)
Penang Road -- 33 (-1/4)
Somerset MRT -- 37 (-4/8)
Orchard Turn -- 40 (-1/4), 45 (0/5)
Scotts Road -- 55 (-5/15), 58 (0/3), 66 (-2/10) Newton MRT
time check: bus in front = 12 min, bus behind = 11 mins.
Dunearn/BT Road -- 70 (-1/5) bus packed to door but no one left behind, 60 (-10/0), 46 (-16/2), 43 (-5/2), 42 (-4/3) Stevens MRT
* 36 pax alighted along Dunearn Road
Whitley Road -- 43 (-6/7)
PIE
Petir Road -- 45 (0/2), 46 (-2/3), 35 (-15/4), 33 (-6/4)
Pending Road -- 18 (-18/3)
Bukit Panjang Road -- 18 (-2/2), 14 (-4/0)
** sv 700 still has considerable loading along Orchard-Stevens-Bukit Panjang. I am not sure why they want to rationalize 700. In fact, 700 is still operating with 4 DDs.
** Unlike other Bukit Timah services that hover around 20-30 pax, and we say still should not be rationalized, 700 is in fact getting on average 40-45 pax and even touches 70 pax (DD worthy) at Newton
** The above loading could be a one off, but the frequency seems consistent at 10-12 mins/bus. So unlike 190/972 is not coming at 03-05 mins frequency.
** There isn't high loading (just 10 pax) in total between Petir Road and BPJ, so not sure why they needed one more service 973 to cover this.
More or less I think they won't touch..But can terminate at Shenton Way all days and 700A withdrawn
Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:Loading on sv 700 SD @ 17.20 hours from Stamford St.
Stamford St -- 15 (0/3), 16 (-3/4), 16 (-3/3)
Dhoby Ghaut MRT -- 30 (-1/15)
Penang Road -- 33 (-1/4)
Somerset MRT -- 37 (-4/8)
Orchard Turn -- 40 (-1/4), 45 (0/5)
Scotts Road -- 55 (-5/15), 58 (0/3), 66 (-2/10) Newton MRT
time check: bus in front = 12 min, bus behind = 11 mins.
Dunearn/BT Road -- 70 (-1/5) bus packed to door but no one left behind, 60 (-10/0), 46 (-16/2), 43 (-5/2), 42 (-4/3) Stevens MRT
* 36 pax alighted along Dunearn Road
Whitley Road -- 43 (-6/7)
PIE
Petir Road -- 45 (0/2), 46 (-2/3), 35 (-15/4), 33 (-6/4)
Pending Road -- 18 (-18/3)
Bukit Panjang Road -- 18 (-2/2), 14 (-4/0)
** sv 700 still has considerable loading along Orchard-Stevens-Bukit Panjang. I am not sure why they want to rationalize 700. In fact, 700 is still operating with 4 DDs.
** Unlike other Bukit Timah services that hover around 20-30 pax, and we say still should not be rationalized, 700 is in fact getting on average 40-45 pax and even touches 70 pax (DD worthy) at Newton
** The above loading could be a one off, but the frequency seems consistent at 10-12 mins/bus. So unlike 190/972 is not coming at 03-05 mins frequency.
** There isn't high loading (just 10 pax) in total between Petir Road and BPJ, so not sure why they needed one more service 973 to cover this.
Loading increased throughout last year? Seems it wasn't so high in demand around the same time last year.
I wonder if the introduction of 973 suggest that they're considering making 700 a peak hour service and merging it with 971E...
Happened to take 252 the other day so jotted down the loading.
Originally posted by carbikebus:More or less I think they won't touch..But can terminate at Shenton Way all days and 700A withdrawn
Hi mr carbikebus, the trend now is new bus services. Not really into rationalization. I believe rationalization is only last resort. When I see people even talking about rationalization for popular services here, I am shocked. Cheers. Thanks.
Originally posted by dupdup77:Hi mr carbikebus, the trend now is new bus services. Not really into rationalization. I believe rationalization is only last resort. When I see people even talking about rationalization for popular services here, I am shocked. Cheers. Thanks.
Originally posted by TIB 585L:The most i heard capacity downgrade for CCL
61 n 93 got them
61 from 4 O405G,To 2 O405G,To 3 DD & 1 O405G and now got 5 DD you call downgrade?
I think only 171 cut short to BBT and a new svc from Marina centre to BPJ(Loop) to improve reliability..171 notorious known for their reliability...