What if the bus rationalisation did not happen?
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What if the bus rationalisation did not happen?
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If the bus rationalisation did not happen, Service 81, 82, 97, 103, 106 and 111 will have high loading
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LTA should reinstate 81, 82, 97, 111, 501 and 502.
97 and 111 extended to Punggol and 81 and 82 terminate at the new Bidadari terminal.
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Originally posted by vicamour:
LTA should reinstate 81, 82, 97, 111, 501 and 502.
97 and 111 extended to Punggol and 81 and 82 terminate at the new Bidadari terminal.
You think none of us here disliked what LTA did back then?
But too bad, it's been many years already, and both the transport system as well as the population have adapted to the change.
Forget about your 97, 111 and 502. Their loading / main passengers have changed, and these services are most likely slated to ply the new downtown at Marina South.
81 and 82 are technically still extendable, but most likely won't be able to pass through LTA. Express services to the northeast may come with demand in due time, but they will certainly not bear much resemblance to any of the old expresses 501 / 511 / 512.
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Originally posted by vicamour:
LTA should reinstate 81, 82, 97, 111, 501 and 502.
97 and 111 extended to Punggol and 81 and 82 terminate at the new Bidadari terminal.
Hi mr vicamour, long distance journeys soley by bus are no longer in fashion. The MRT has basically become a standard way of life with the people in the 21st century. Nowadays, youths and adults have grown accustomed to the MRT routes as being a part of their life when they are required to travel. No longer people are just solely used to travel by bus only. Cheers. Thanks.
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Agree but many new mrt stations and bus stops are not well integrated, example Holland V and Botanic Gardens, Tai Seng stations. People are discouraged from making transfers. Efforts needed to bring bus stops nearer to MRT stations to encourage higher usage.
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Originally posted by iamgoondu:
Agree but many new mrt stations and bus stops are not well integrated, example Holland V and Botanic Gardens, Tai Seng stations. People are discouraged from making transfers. Efforts needed to bring bus stops nearer to MRT stations to encourage higher usage.
Totally agree. Especially Circle Line. Stations such as Promenade, Mountbatten, Tai Seng, Caldecott and one-north are terrible examples.
However, stations with convenient transfers and a good network of hus services do change travelling patterns. Positive examples include Farrer Road, Kent Ridge and Haw Par Villa. Even 188 now has interesting loading from Clementi Rd to Haw Par Villa MRT during PM.
And luckily, many of the new DTL2 stations already have bus stops added/relocated closer to them.
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Originally posted by dupdup77:
Hi mr vicamour, long distance journeys soley by bus are no longer in fashion. The MRT has basically become a standard way of life with the people in the 21st century. Nowadays, youths and adults have grown accustomed to the MRT routes as being a part of their life when they are required to travel. No longer people are just solely used to travel by bus only. Cheers. Thanks.
I always like to travel by using bus. 51 is very long. 97 should go back to Hougang and use Berth 1 at Hougang Bus Interchange
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Originally posted by iamgoondu:
Agree but many new mrt stations and bus stops are not well integrated, example Holland V and Botanic Gardens, Tai Seng stations. People are discouraged from making transfers. Efforts needed to bring bus stops nearer to MRT stations to encourage higher usage.
Hi mr iamgoondu, yes. However we really cannot expect all MRT stations to be well integrated with many bus services. Some will have more bus services and some will have less. This is very natural due to the specific location of the MRT station. This is why when people buy houses, location is the utmost concern. Location, location, location! Not possible to build 2 MRT stations with the same integration. Cheers. Thanks.
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Originally posted by Haxx232335:
I always like to travel by using bus. 51 is very long. 97 should go back to Hougang and use Berth 1 at Hougang Bus Interchange
Hi mr Haxx232335, you can always feel free to travel by using bus. But take note the world does not revolve around you. The authorities will not change the whole structure just because of you 1 person alone. They cater for the mass market. MRT is definitely the way to go for super long routes. Cheers. Thanks.
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Originally posted by dupdup77:
Hi mr iamgoondu, yes. However we really cannot expect all MRT stations to be well integrated with many bus services. Some will have more bus services and some will have less. This is very natural due to the specific location of the MRT station. This is why when people buy houses, location is the utmost concern. Location, location, location! Not possible to build 2 MRT stations with the same integration. Cheers. Thanks.
What I meant is to bring existing bus stops nearer to mrt stations, and not to route more bus services.
Example the pair of bus stops along Holland Road can be move nearer to the traffic junction, nearer to the HV station. Wondering why are they not opening the exits at Saint James Church.
And for Botanic Gardens, why there is no link up between the lift in the MRT station and the lift at the overhead bridge? To transfer to buses at Dunern road [heading toward Little India] will take you 10 minutes.
And for Tai Seng, if they feel there is a need for an overhead bridge at Labrador to ARC, why are they not considering a similar overhead bridge to link up the Tai Seng to Breadtalk HQ or to the Civil Defense HQ? Are they aware of the crowds that walk from Tai Seng to Ubi industrial daily?
More can be done to encourage people to ditch their cars and travel comfortably by buses and trains.
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Originally posted by dupdup77:
Hi mr Haxx232335, you can always feel free to travel by using bus. But take note the world does not revolve around you. The authorities will not change the whole structure just because of you 1 person alone. They cater for the mass market. MRT is definitely the way to go for super long routes. Cheers. Thanks.
You still don't know who he is?
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Originally posted by dupdup77:
Hi mr Haxx232335, you can always feel free to travel by using bus. But take note the world does not revolve around you. The authorities will not change the whole structure just because of you 1 person alone. They cater for the mass market. MRT is definitely the way to go for super long routes. Cheers. Thanks.
No. 51 can be less than 3 hours and 502 must go back to Sengkang
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Originally posted by array88:
You still don't know who he is?
Hi mr array88, I thought he had already said he would stop making fun of usernames and he had apologized. Since he is back, I will definitely stick to my words never to reply. Cheers. Thanks for reminding me that a leopard will never change its spots.
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Originally posted by iamgoondu:
What I meant is to bring existing bus stops nearer to mrt stations, and not to route more bus services.
Example the pair of bus stops along Holland Road can be move nearer to the traffic junction, nearer to the HV station. Wondering why are they not opening the exits at Saint James Church.
And for Botanic Gardens, why there is no link up between the lift in the MRT station and the lift at the overhead bridge? To transfer to buses at Dunern road [heading toward Little India] will take you 10 minutes.
And for Tai Seng, if they feel there is a need for an overhead bridge at Labrador to ARC, why are they not considering a similar overhead bridge to link up the Tai Seng to Breadtalk HQ or to the Civil Defense HQ? Are they aware of the crowds that walk from Tai Seng to Ubi industrial daily?
More can be done to encourage people to ditch their cars and travel comfortably by buses and trains.
Hi mr iamgoondu, sorry for misreading earlier. For holland village MRT location, I can answer as I stayed near there previously. The MRT location is situated next to holland road shopping centre. The pair of bus stops which is the nearest should be holland ave Blk 12 and opposite it which is directly at holland village MRT. There is another pair of bus stops at holland road. However take note that there is a huge turning curve which makes the bus stops unable to move nearer to holland village MRT as what you want. Take note that there is also huge traffic along holland road and holland avenue precisely because of all the shops nearby and the famous holland village eateries. It is not possible to move the stops at holland road nearer. Cheers. Thanks.
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There will be more bus services in the future. And the rationalisation will be stopped
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Originally posted by dupdup77:
Hi mr iamgoondu, sorry for misreading earlier. For holland village MRT location, I can answer as I stayed near there previously. The MRT location is situated next to holland road shopping centre. The pair of bus stops which is the nearest should be holland ave Blk 12 and opposite it which is directly at holland village MRT. There is another pair of bus stops at holland road. However take note that there is a huge turning curve which makes the bus stops unable to move nearer to holland village MRT as what you want. Take note that there is also huge traffic along holland road and holland avenue precisely because of all the shops nearby and the famous holland village eateries. It is not possible to move the stops at holland road nearer. Cheers. Thanks.
If they are unable to improve on bus/train integration, people would still rely on buses to go places, and any bus rationalisation will cause unhappiness. As for me I would still rely on 48 to Dunearn Road and make a bus transfer to Trelis tower. I had tried train, the train/bus transfer at Botanic Gardens tired me.
We have a great train system. It is a pity that they didn't try hard enough to better integrate the bus and train infrastructures.
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Well, if bus rationalisation did not happen, then there would not be any rationalisation of buses. :)
On a serious note, if bus rationalisation did not happen, this means bus services and train services are independent variables.
If bus services and train services are not mutually exclusive, there would be pros and cons.
Pros: when train breaks down, bus can substitute.
Cons: less revenue on train services.
There is a reason why Malaysia and Indonesia are only building MRT (Mass Rapid Transit) now, and why Indonesia has been so reluctant to build MRT. It costs a lot of money to build MRT. That's why until now Malaysia still uses mostly KTM and LRT, whereas Indonesia is building much more LRT than MRT.
MRT costs a lot. That's why have to reduce bus services to ensure at least some revenue on MRT.
If back then we build the MRT lines as LRT instead, then yes, we could probably let Bus and LRT be independent variables.
Maybe that's why the Jurong Region Line would be a ... Low capacity RTS (Rapid Transit System). Low capacity, but still above the category of LRT and within the category of MRT.
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Originally posted by jurongresident:
Well, if bus rationalisation did not happen, then there would not be any rationalisation of buses. :)
On a serious note, if bus rationalisation did not happen, this means bus services and train services are independent variables.
If bus services and train services are not mutually exclusive, there would be pros and cons.
Pros: when train breaks down, bus can substitute.
Cons: less revenue on train services.
There is a reason why Malaysia and Indonesia are only building MRT (Mass Rapid Transit) now, and why Indonesia has been so reluctant to build MRT. It costs a lot of money to build MRT. That's why until now Malaysia still uses mostly KTM and LRT, whereas Indonesia is building much more LRT than MRT.
MRT costs a lot. That's why have to reduce bus services to ensure at least some revenue on MRT.
If back then we build the MRT lines as LRT instead, then yes, we could probably let Bus and LRT be independent variables.
Also don't forget ... buses and LRTs would be much more crowded even back in the 1990s - 2000s, it'll be a hell lot of hassle to get from one place to another (esp. cross island), faraway estates (such as Punggol / Woodlands) may not have seen rapid development, and overall these would probably have had discouraged many tourists and/or new migrants to come.
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actually, do we really have to go into a debate between buses and trains?
Well, apparently, most of us travel across towns and across the island everyday. While buses could provide the capacity, trains are much faster.
That's why Singapore adopts the hubs-and-spokes system. We still need buses, but mostly for short distances.
When a new MRT Line opens, by right there should be some kind of rationalisation of bus services. Firstly, it ensures some revenue on the MRT Line. Secondly, it adjusts supply of bus services as demand for bus services may fall.
With regards to Downtown Line, I think we are taking the approach of adjusting supply to meet changes in demand. This means any change in existing bus services would only happen after changes in demand (loading levels) settles at a new constant level.
In other words, I would like to request the moderators to lock this thread, as well as the other thread on which bus services should not be amended or withdrawn.
Discussions can continue at the thread on DTL2 possible bus rationalisation. Actually, that thread can be renamed to include TSL, ERL and other upcoming MRT lines.
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I am asking for better bus/train integration, if a bus train transfer takes more than 10 minutes, people will continue to rely on buses. Hubs and Spokes is feasible only if we have excellent bus train integration, and if have many more bus bays and road-side bus terminals. At present, LTA is not ready, neither is our new transport infrastructures geared towards such h&s system.
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In view of disruption in train services, I feel that bus services should provide the same capacity as train services, at least at bus stops next to MRT stations.
On the MRT North-South, East-West and North-East lines, each train has the capacity for 1,920 people. During peak hours, the frequency is up to 2 minutes; there are up to 30 trips per hour. The total capacity is 57,600 people per hour during peak hours.
A double decker bus has the capacity for around 130 people. For bus services to provide the same capacity as train services, there has to be a total of 443 Double-Decker buses per hour during peak hours at the bus stops next to the MRT stations - in one direction.
This means there has to be around 78.833 bus services, if bus services operate at ten minutes frequency during peak hours. Clearly, this is impossible.
Let us assume we use the bus stops at Clementi MRT Station as a benchmark, which has nine bus services. If we let one bus stop have up to nine bus services, this means there has to be eight bus stops with nine (unique) bus services each.
Well, a feasible way is to ensure that within a planning area (town), there is a total of 78.833 bus services, so that in the event of a train service disruption, people who are not on the trains yet can walk to a bus stop near them and commute on buses instead.
Meanwhile, people who are on the train can be assured of a bus to take at the bus stops next to the MRT Station.
A planning area has at least around five sub-zones. This means within each sub-zone, there should be 15.767 bus services.
This means that on average, there should be around 1.5 times more bus services in a planning area (town).
^ that is, if we standardise the frequency on all bus services at ten minutes during peak hours.
The more accurate way is to ensure that during peak hours, there is the capacity for 57,600 people on bus services in a planning area - or around 11k people in a sub-zone.
In other words, this means there has to be even more buses, even more rides. Around 100% more buses (bus services).
This also means around 100% more bus depots and 100% more buses on the roads.
To ensure smooth traffic on the roads even with 100% more buses, there must be bus lanes on every roads with bus services. For some roads, it's merely taking away one lane for buses to use exclusively. For many roads, there is a need to expand roads to create bus lanes.
Quite a 大工程 (challenge), but it could create short-term jobs for the construction sector and related industries, and long-term jobs in the bus services industry. :) -
Originally posted by jurongresident:
In view of disruption in train services, I feel that bus services should provide the same capacity as train services, at least at bus stops next to MRT stations.
On the MRT North-South, East-West and North-East lines, each train has the capacity for 1,920 people. During peak hours, the frequency is up to 2 minutes; there are up to 30 trips per hour. The total capacity is 57,600 people per hour during peak hours.
A double decker bus has the capacity for around 130 people. For bus services to provide the same capacity as train services, there has to be a total of 443 Double-Decker buses per hour during peak hours at the bus stops next to the MRT stations - in one direction.
This means there has to be around 78.833 bus services, if bus services operate at ten minutes frequency during peak hours. Clearly, this is impossible.
Let us assume we use the bus stops at Clementi MRT Station as a benchmark, which has nine bus services. If we let one bus stop have up to nine bus services, this means there has to be eight bus stops with nine (unique) bus services each.
Well, a feasible way is to ensure that within a planning area (town), there is a total of 78.833 bus services, so that in the event of a train service disruption, people who are not on the trains yet can walk to a bus stop near them and commute on buses instead.
Meanwhile, people who are on the train can be assured of a bus to take at the bus stops next to the MRT Station.
A planning area has at least around five sub-zones. This means within each sub-zone, there should be 15.767 bus services.
This means that on average, there should be around 1.5 times more bus services in a planning area (town).
^ that is, if we standardise the frequency on all bus services at ten minutes during peak hours.
The more accurate way is to ensure that during peak hours, there is the capacity for 57,600 people on bus services in a planning area - or around 11k people in a sub-zone.
In other words, this means there has to be even more buses, even more rides. Around 100% more buses (bus services).
This also means around 100% more bus depots and 100% more buses on the roads.
To ensure smooth traffic on the roads even with 100% more buses, there must be bus lanes on every roads with bus services. For some roads, it's merely taking away one lane for buses to use exclusively. For many roads, there is a need to expand roads to create bus lanes.
Quite a 大工程 (challenge), but it could create short-term jobs for the construction sector and related industries, and long-term jobs in the bus services industry. :)Hi mr jurongresident, get so many resources but cannot substantiate them during normal days without disruption. Just to standby for 1 or 2 MRT disruptions a month? Like that, bus companies will collapse or not? Your ideas are too unrealistic in this working world. Maybe you have not started to work. In future, you will not think like this. Cheers. Thanks.
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Originally posted by jurongresident:
In view of disruption in train services, I feel that bus services should provide the same capacity as train services, at least at bus stops next to MRT stations.
On the MRT North-South, East-West and North-East lines, each train has the capacity for 1,920 people. During peak hours, the frequency is up to 2 minutes; there are up to 30 trips per hour. The total capacity is 57,600 people per hour during peak hours.
A double decker bus has the capacity for around 130 people. For bus services to provide the same capacity as train services, there has to be a total of 443 Double-Decker buses per hour during peak hours at the bus stops next to the MRT stations - in one direction.
This means there has to be around 78.833 bus services, if bus services operate at ten minutes frequency during peak hours. Clearly, this is impossible.
Let us assume we use the bus stops at Clementi MRT Station as a benchmark, which has nine bus services. If we let one bus stop have up to nine bus services, this means there has to be eight bus stops with nine (unique) bus services each.
Well, a feasible way is to ensure that within a planning area (town), there is a total of 78.833 bus services, so that in the event of a train service disruption, people who are not on the trains yet can walk to a bus stop near them and commute on buses instead.
Meanwhile, people who are on the train can be assured of a bus to take at the bus stops next to the MRT Station.
A planning area has at least around five sub-zones. This means within each sub-zone, there should be 15.767 bus services.
This means that on average, there should be around 1.5 times more bus services in a planning area (town).
^ that is, if we standardise the frequency on all bus services at ten minutes during peak hours.
The more accurate way is to ensure that during peak hours, there is the capacity for 57,600 people on bus services in a planning area - or around 11k people in a sub-zone.
In other words, this means there has to be even more buses, even more rides. Around 100% more buses (bus services).
This also means around 100% more bus depots and 100% more buses on the roads.
To ensure smooth traffic on the roads even with 100% more buses, there must be bus lanes on every roads with bus services. For some roads, it's merely taking away one lane for buses to use exclusively. For many roads, there is a need to expand roads to create bus lanes.
Quite a 大工程 (challenge), but it could create short-term jobs for the construction sector and related industries, and long-term jobs in the bus services industry. :)Meanwhile, this also means that train fares have to increase by around 100%, to ensure that the amount of revenue collected remains the same.
Already, if we want to collect enough revenue to recover costs, train fares must increase by a few times.
If we increase the capacity on bus services to match the capacity of train services, this may reduce demand (loading) for train services, and we have to increase train fares by a few times more.
Currently, a train ride costs around $1.50. In a day, each person take around two train rides. This means on average, each person pays around $3 on train rides.
If we increase train fares by a few times, this means we have to pay around $9-$15 a day (or $252-$366 a month) on train rides.
Most Singaporeans earn at least $1500 a month. I am not sure if everyone is willing to spend up to around 25% of their income on train rides.