Shall we continue here?
HK is no utopia but Singapore should have lessons from them about point-to-point bus routes. LTA should eradicate the hub and spoke model we are using now. There's simply no logic in squeezing in more services into already overcrowded bus interchanges, in fact it should be the opposite, LTA should build more numerous but smaller bus terminals, even roadside ones to decentralize the bus network as well as allowing them the opportunity to modify bus services to serve areas that have not been well served. If LTA continues to press on with the hub and spoke model, it will just explode in all of our faces in a few years time, especially when we are massively increasing the amount of buses on our roads.
Also, if we do indeed transition to a more point-to-point bus system, it is unlikely we will need bendy buses. HK doesn't need bendy buses because of their point-to-point bus network and also because they don't have many feeder/intra-town style routes. Unlike LTA, they don't try to cram entire trainloads of people onto feeder and intra-town buses at each station.
Originally posted by TIB868X:HK is no utopia but Singapore should have lessons from them about point-to-point bus routes. LTA should eradicate the hub and spoke model we are using now. There's simply no logic in squeezing in more services into already overcrowded bus interchanges, in fact it should be the opposite, LTA should build more numerous but smaller bus terminals, even roadside ones to decentralize the bus network as well as allowing them the opportunity to modify bus services to serve areas that have not been well served. If LTA continues to press on with the hub and spoke model, it will just explode in all of our faces in a few years time, especially when we are massively increasing the amount of buses on our roads.
Also, if we do indeed transition to a more point-to-point bus system, it is unlikely we will need bendy buses. HK doesn't need bendy buses because of their point-to-point bus network and also because they don't have many feeder/intra-town style routes. Unlike LTA, they don't try to cram entire trainloads of people onto feeder and intra-town buses at each station.
Agreed..Feeders should have 2 stages of fare 0-4km $1.40 4.5 above $1.50..Extend those routes which is less than 4.5km to utilise the DDs.
3-4 DDs spotted on Svc 985
I expect 980 will get 2-3 DDs too
Originally posted by carbikebus:Agreed..Feeders should have 2 stages of fare 0-4km $1.40 4.5 above $1.50..Extend those routes which is less than 4.5km to utilise the DDs.
Don't increase the fares.
to those who keep say that bendies allow ppl to alight faster, yes..iti is true, because it have 3 doors...and therefore can clear the berth faster than DDs...
But did you take into consideration that it is 18M long? So if there is 36M of space for alighting, 3 DD can alight at the same time, while only 2 Bendies can alight at the same time...so it does not mean that bendies can clear up the load faster... same go for boarding as well at bus stop.. 3 DD can board/alight at same time, but only 2 bendies can do in 36M of length..
boarding time is the same for both bendies/DD (since using only one door) , but what about the congestion caused by the long vehicle in interchange esp at the berth.. one sv169 bendy stop to pick up at the boarding berth at AMK interchange, the bus at the behind berth cant turn out already even it have finished boarding all the pax...
same go for those bus stop as well. usually, if a bendy stop at bus stop, the second bus can forget about letting ppl to board/alight (unless the BC open the door)...
Originally posted by lemon1974:to those who keep say that bendies allow ppl to alight faster, yes..iti is true, because it have 3 doors...and therefore can clear the berth faster than DDs...
But did you take into consideration that it is 18M long? So if there is 36M of space for alighting, 3 DD can alight at the same time, while only 2 Bendies can alight at the same time...so it does not mean that bendies can clear up the load faster... same go for boarding as well at bus stop.. 3 DD can board/alight at same time, but only 2 bendies can do in 36M of length..
boarding time is the same for both bendies/DD (since using only one door) , but what about the congestion caused by the long vehicle in interchange esp at the berth.. one sv169 bendy stop to pick up at the boarding berth at AMK interchange, the bus at the behind berth cant turn out already even it have finished boarding all the pax...
same go for those bus stop as well. usually, if a bendy stop at bus stop, the second bus can forget about letting ppl to board/alight (unless the BC open the door)...
In a given space of 36 m, yes you will have space for 3 DDs and 2 bendies. Based on the absolute space taken, the DDs win, but a stationary bus is a sitting duck. When you take into account of the flow, you will realise more pax can be cleared with a bendy.
Based on observations, bendies take less than half the time of DDs dwelling at busy bus stops, having similar and significant boarding and alighting activities. Using simple, easy to calculate numbers, the calculation is as follows:
In a given 6 minutes time frame, and 36 m space. As you have said 3 DDs OR 2 bendies can fit into the space. But lets simply assume a bendy takes half the time (in fact, in reality, more often than not it takes less than half) of a DD. And for simplicity sake, lets assume a double deck takes 3 mins (at stops like NP and SIM, 5 mins is not unheard of), and a bendy takes 1.5 mins. Ie each DD space can be used by 2 DDs in 6 mins and each bendy space can be used by 4 bendies in 6 mins.
You could fit 3 DDs x 2 buses per space OR 2 bendies x 4 buses per space.
So in a given 6 minutes time frame, you could fit 6 DDs OR 8 bendies.
The above calculation was deliberately made simple, but it can be extrapolated to fit different dwelling times.
Originally posted by lemon1974:to those who keep say that bendies allow ppl to alight faster, yes..iti is true, because it have 3 doors...and therefore can clear the berth faster than DDs...
But did you take into consideration that it is 18M long? So if there is 36M of space for alighting, 3 DD can alight at the same time, while only 2 Bendies can alight at the same time...so it does not mean that bendies can clear up the load faster... same go for boarding as well at bus stop.. 3 DD can board/alight at same time, but only 2 bendies can do in 36M of length..
boarding time is the same for both bendies/DD (since using only one door) , but what about the congestion caused by the long vehicle in interchange esp at the berth.. one sv169 bendy stop to pick up at the boarding berth at AMK interchange, the bus at the behind berth cant turn out already even it have finished boarding all the pax...
same go for those bus stop as well. usually, if a bendy stop at bus stop, the second bus can forget about letting ppl to board/alight (unless the BC open the door)...
I think you can just forget about debating with them since they havent drive bendy buses before,As far as i know,You know i know thats all
Originally posted by SBS351M:In a given space of 36 m, yes you will have space for 3 DDs and 2 bendies. Based on the absolute space taken, the DDs win, but a stationary bus is a sitting duck. When you take into account of the flow, you will realise more pax can be cleared with a bendy.
Based on observations, bendies take less than half the time of DDs dwelling at busy bus stops, having similar and significant boarding and alighting activities. Using simple, easy to calculate numbers, the calculation is as follows:
In a given 6 minutes time frame, and 36 m space. As you have said 3 DDs OR 2 bendies can fit into the space. But lets simply assume a bendy takes half the time (in fact, in reality, more often than not it takes less than half) of a DD. And for simplicity sake, lets assume a double deck takes 3 mins (at stops like NP and SIM, 5 mins is not unheard of), and a bendy takes 1.5 mins. Ie each DD space can be used by 2 DDs in 6 mins and each bendy space can be used by 4 bendies in 6 mins.
You could fit 3 DDs x 2 buses per space OR 2 bendies x 4 buses per space.
So in a given 6 minutes time frame, you could fit 6 DDs OR 8 bendies.
The above calculation was deliberately made simple, but it can be extrapolated to fit different dwelling times.
That is some stupid calculation. Sorry to say that but your thoughts here are not realistic.
If 179 was bendies at Pioneer MRT stop, and coming at 02-03 min frequency like 179.. first of all it would create a queue of buses to just call at the stop (take into consideration there is also 241, 255, 257 calling at this stop). This would not just delay 179 but also all other buses because the bendies would hog the stop.
Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:That is some stupid calculation. Sorry to say that but your thoughts here are not realistic.
If 179 was bendies at Pioneer MRT stop, and coming at 02-03 min frequency like 179.. first of all it would create a queue of buses to just call at the stop (take into consideration there is also 241, 255, 257 calling at this stop). This would not just delay 179 but also all other buses because the bendies would hog the stop.
It seems stupid because its just a hypothetical situation created by lemon1974. I'm just replying to his post using his own hypothetical situation. Nonetheless the hypothetical situation provided a good way of demonstrating the efficiencies of using bendies.
Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:If 179 was bendies at Pioneer MRT stop, and coming at 02-03 min frequency like 179.. first of all it would create a queue of buses to just call at the stop (take into consideration there is also 241, 255, 257 calling at this stop). This would not just delay 179 but also all other buses because the bendies would hog the stop.
Nope, you are still basing it on absolute space used, you are not considering the flow of both passengers and traffic. Furthermore, a double deck takes longer for both boarding and alighting, and this is one reason why you see them bunched up on 179.
Originally posted by SBS351M:It seems stupid because its just a hypothetical situation created by lemon1974. I'm just replying to his post using his own hypothetical situation. Nonetheless the hypothetical situation provided a good way of demonstrating the efficiencies of using bendies.
your situation is stupid is not because of what i say.. your situation is stupid because, you are assuming that the dwelling time for DD is 100% longer than that of the bendies at bus stops...which is incorrect at all...and further you does not take into consideration the traffic congestion that bendies will cause...
during am peak, whereby most student alight at Ngee Ann bus stop, there is not much boarding activities and studenst on DD can also alight from the front entrance as well. so why would a DD take double the time at the bus stop?
same go for the afternoon when most student are going home (when very little ppl alight at the ngee ann bus stop)... only one entrance for boarding, so are you saying that the bendies will depart after 1 1/2 mins while DD will take 3 mins for boarding? maybe this is true for bendy, because most people on bendy dun want to move in, so lot of ppl cant board?
what about other bus stops whereby the boarding/alighting is only for a few ppl? are you saying that the DD will stay at the bus stop much longer than a bendy? '
Originally posted by SBS351M:Nope, you are still basing it on absolute space used, you are not considering the flow of both passengers and traffic. Furthermore, a double deck takes longer for both boarding and alighting, and this is one reason why you see them bunched up on 179.
oh really? with 2-4 mins frequency, sure got bunching happen.. are you saying that with 2-4 mins frequency with full fleet bendies deploy on sv179, there wont be any bunching?
look at this video... 5 x 912 bendies bunching 2 stops right after interchange...
so sv912 frequency is 6-7 mins during evening peak.. so how can 5x912 bendies bunch up since they are able to clear the load fast?????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npblZosLXa0
Originally posted by lemon1974:oh really? with 2-4 mins frequency, sure got bunching happen.. are you saying that with 2-4 mins frequency with full fleet bendies deploy on sv179, there wont be any bunching?
look at this video... 5 x 912 bendies bunching 2 stops right after interchange...
so sv912 frequency is 6-7 mins during evening peak.. so how can 5x912 bendies bunch up since they are able to clear the load fast?????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npblZosLXa0
Adm Stn side clears load fast, BUT with only a single door for boarding, how to not bunch up easily? LOL You have high loading sector at Adm Stn, Stops along Ring Rd and opposite 888 Plaza etc. btw..
And don't rely on the frequency range given la...most of the time it's within 2-5mins one..
Originally posted by TIB429E:Adm Stn side clears load fast, BUT with only a single door for boarding, how to not bunch up easily? LOL You have high loading sector at Adm Stn, Stops along Ring Rd and opposite 888 Plaza etc. btw..
And don't rely on the frequency range given la...most of the time it's within 2-5mins one..
oh really? but someone (not u) seem to say that bendies wont have bunching issue if they are deploy on sv179......or any other service with good frequency....(cos it is DDs who are holding up at the bus stops, thus causing all the bunching).Bendies does not hold up at bus stop and thus no bunching.....but then 5 x912 bendies right after interchange should not happen at all since bendies are so efficent in clearing loads at bus stops...
Originally posted by lemon1974:your situation is stupid is not because of what i say.. your situation is stupid because, you are assuming that the dwelling time for DD is 100% longer than that of the bendies at bus stops...which is incorrect at all...and further you does not take into consideration the traffic congestion that bendies will cause...
during am peak, whereby most student alight at Ngee Ann bus stop, there is not much boarding activities and studenst on DD can also alight from the front entrance as well. so why would a DD take double the time at the bus stop?
same go for the afternoon when most student are going home (when very little ppl alight at the ngee ann bus stop)... only one entrance for boarding, so are you saying that the bendies will depart after 1 1/2 mins while DD will take 3 mins for boarding? maybe this is true for bendy, because most people on bendy dun want to move in, so lot of ppl cant board?
what about other bus stops whereby the boarding/alighting is only for a few ppl? are you saying that the DD will stay at the bus stop much longer than a bendy? '
In the same respect, your explanation doesn't consider the traffic congestion caused by a double deck acting like a sitting duck at a bus stop.
Sure, not all stops will see bendies taking 1/2 the time, for example, stops where one or two pax are alighting, then yes, it will take the same time. And sure, not 100% of the time, as there may be different passenger behaviours, but in general, if you have a sizable crowd (more than 10), you would realise the bendies unload way faster. And when you see busy bus stops, thats where it drops below 50% of the time taken by a DD.
The flow is simple, and I have explained it before, there is just one entrance on both bendies and double decks, but the double decks have a choke point at the bottom of the staircase, where people boarding will have to wait for people coming down from the upper deck to alight, and only two lanes of flow to exit, of which there is only one lane of passengers from the upper deck (even if all 55 people want to alight at the same time, they will have to form a line before coming down the stairs). And also, the walk from most of the upper deck to the exit is a long one in terms of time taken (vis a vis a bendy) and both climbing up and down the stairs take additional time. So people get stuck waiting for people to come down, even if they are just going to the rear of the lower deck, and if they do want to go upstairs, they will have to form a queue to go up, slows everything down.
On a bendy, you just have to walk from the seats to the doors, which are less than half the length of a 12m from the seats, and there are four distinct lines that can be formed and while sometimes there may be a wait at the exits, it isn't a long wait, usually a few seconds before you get to pass it, especially as there is a standing area opposite the door which allows pax who've just boarded to overtake the exiting pax.
I would recommend you to see a situation where congestion have been caused by double decks where previously didn't exist. Go to CCK Int during peak now, especially in the morning. Previously with bendies only, there wasn't that much of a jam (just a short wait, if there is any), now with the double decks there is a jam, and a long wait when a double deck is in front of you occupying the alighting berth even if there was no jam, and if you actually look at how slow people are coming down the deckers at the alighting berth, you'd see the clearer picture as to why there is a jam. Meanwhile the bendies really take less than 1/2 the amount of time there as compared to double decks, the bendies in this case, literally come and go.
Same situation at the first pair of bus stops at Bukit Panjang after BKE, double decks which just dwell at the bus stops. While bendies just take less than half the time to unload and load.
Originally posted by lemon1974:oh really? with 2-4 mins frequency, sure got bunching happen.. are you saying that with 2-4 mins frequency with full fleet bendies deploy on sv179, there wont be any bunching?
look at this video... 5 x 912 bendies bunching 2 stops right after interchange...
so sv912 frequency is 6-7 mins during evening peak.. so how can 5x912 bendies bunch up since they are able to clear the load fast?????
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=npblZosLXa0
How sure are you that there wasn't a jam in the interchange caused by a lack of parking space (which all interchanges face now) or even a double deck blocking a whole bunch other buses?
Originally posted by carbikebus:I think you can just forget about debating with them since they havent drive bendy buses before,As far as i know,You know i know thats all
I know who you are, and I know you have not driven double deckers before, and I don't remember you driving bendy buses before.
Originally posted by SBS351M:I know who you are, and I know you have not driven double deckers before, and I don't remember you driving bendy buses before.
Dont assume too much,I knew you have taken joyride in my buses before but did i need to tell you every service i drive before hand?I too need to keep my privacy from people like you..Get back to topic and dont try to shoot broken arrows here.
Originally posted by SBS351M:How sure are you that there wasn't a jam in the interchange caused by a lack of parking space (which all interchanges face now) or even a double deck blocking a whole bunch other buses?
lack of parking spaces? so one more reason to have less bendy..... double decker blocking at interchange causing 5 x912 to be bunch? are u sure? why dun you say bendies blocking in WDL interchange causing these buses to be bunch?
Originally posted by SBS351M:In the same respect, your explanation doesn't consider the traffic congestion caused by a double deck acting like a sitting duck at a bus stop.
Sure, not all stops will see bendies taking 1/2 the time, for example, stops where one or two pax are alighting, then yes, it will take the same time. And sure, not 100% of the time, as there may be different passenger behaviours, but in general, if you have a sizable crowd (more than 10), you would realise the bendies unload way faster. And when you see busy bus stops, thats where it drops below 50% of the time taken by a DD.
The flow is simple, and I have explained it before, there is just one entrance on both bendies and double decks, but the double decks have a choke point at the bottom of the staircase, where people boarding will have to wait for people coming down from the upper deck to alight, and only two lanes of flow to exit, of which there is only one lane of passengers from the upper deck (even if all 55 people want to alight at the same time, they will have to form a line before coming down the stairs). And also, the walk from most of the upper deck to the exit is a long one in terms of time taken (vis a vis a bendy) and both climbing up and down the stairs take additional time. So people get stuck waiting for people to come down, even if they are just going to the rear of the lower deck, and if they do want to go upstairs, they will have to form a queue to go up, slows everything down.
On a bendy, you just have to walk from the seats to the doors, which are less than half the length of a 12m from the seats, and there are four distinct lines that can be formed and while sometimes there may be a wait at the exits, it isn't a long wait, usually a few seconds before you get to pass it, especially as there is a standing area opposite the door which allows pax who've just boarded to overtake the exiting pax.
I would recommend you to see a situation where congestion have been caused by double decks where previously didn't exist. Go to CCK Int during peak now, especially in the morning. Previously with bendies only, there wasn't that much of a jam (just a short wait, if there is any), now with the double decks there is a jam, and a long wait when a double deck is in front of you occupying the alighting berth even if there was no jam, and if you actually look at how slow people are coming down the deckers at the alighting berth, you'd see the clearer picture as to why there is a jam. Meanwhile the bendies really take less than 1/2 the amount of time there as compared to double decks, the bendies in this case, literally come and go.
Same situation at the first pair of bus stops at Bukit Panjang after BKE, double decks which just dwell at the bus stops. While bendies just take less than half the time to unload and load.
so how many bus stops have such situation whereby 55 paxes are alighting and another 55 paxes want to board the same bus? are u saying that every bus stop, there will be the same boarding activities (all the 55 paxes from upper deck will alight and another 55 will go to upper deck?).. further, if a bendy is packed, you think it is easy for the paxes to alight and board as well? still have to wait for the paxes to alight first, before the paxes inside the buses can move in before BC open the front entrance.. so the time is roughly the same... you are assuming that the BC will open the front entrance and there is space between the entrance/exit for the paxes to board....
further, how many DDs are causing traffic congestion acting like a sitting duck? are u talking about the NP bus stop? i usually saw bendy causing congestion, because the tail end protrude out on the lane, thus all car behind cant pass at all...
as for your CCK interchange example, you have to take into consideration how many buses have been added since BSEP... and further so far, only 67/188/190 have DDs, and you really think the DDs are the factor of causing congestion at CCK interchange? how many paxes are coming down from the upper deck of 67/188/190 DDs at CCK interchange? without boarding, the paxes can alight much faster, by using the entrance as well.
Originally posted by TIB868X:HK is no utopia but Singapore should have lessons from them about point-to-point bus routes. LTA should eradicate the hub and spoke model we are using now. There's simply no logic in squeezing in more services into already overcrowded bus interchanges, in fact it should be the opposite, LTA should build more numerous but smaller bus terminals, even roadside ones to decentralize the bus network as well as allowing them the opportunity to modify bus services to serve areas that have not been well served. If LTA continues to press on with the hub and spoke model, it will just explode in all of our faces in a few years time, especially when we are massively increasing the amount of buses on our roads.
Also, if we do indeed transition to a more point-to-point bus system, it is unlikely we will need bendy buses. HK doesn't need bendy buses because of their point-to-point bus network and also because they don't have many feeder/intra-town style routes. Unlike LTA, they don't try to cram entire trainloads of people onto feeder and intra-town buses at each station.
This was EXACTLY my point...
Some are just plain stubborn to recognise this...
And to these ppl I say this: You all dont want bendy so much right?! Can... Scrap hub-and-spoke and encourage long-distance travel by introducing more point-to-point! Whats the damn problem with that? This is giving all commuters benefits! Instead of spamming more feeders and in turn causing bottlenecks IN the bus with DDs!
There has to be an opportunity cost somewhere!
And to those asking me to join LTA... I ask you then, you come forum for what sia... Voice opinion also not happy... Who ever said that an opinion must make "legitimate sense", or at least to your own petty standards? I hope to hear more than this simplistic and dismissive response.
Originally posted by lemon1974:so how many bus stops have such situation whereby 55 paxes are alighting and another 55 paxes want to board the same bus? are u saying that every bus stop, there will be the same boarding activities (all the 55 paxes from upper deck will alight and another 55 will go to upper deck?).. further, if a bendy is packed, you think it is easy for the paxes to alight and board as well? still have to wait for the paxes to alight first, before the paxes inside the buses can move in before BC open the front entrance.. so the time is roughly the same... you are assuming that the BC will open the front entrance and there is space between the entrance/exit for the paxes to board....
further, how many DDs are causing traffic congestion acting like a sitting duck? are u talking about the NP bus stop? i usually saw bendy causing congestion, because the tail end protrude out on the lane, thus all car behind cant pass at all...
as for your CCK interchange example, you have to take into consideration how many buses have been added since BSEP... and further so far, only 67/188/190 have DDs, and you really think the DDs are the factor of causing congestion at CCK interchange? how many paxes are coming down from the upper deck of 67/188/190 DDs at CCK interchange? without boarding, the paxes can alight much faster, by using the entrance as well.
If you had read properly, the 55 people scenairo was a if (I suppose you don't need me to explain this word), and was done to show how inefficient double deckers are when there is a full load, the purpose is to show the flow, for a full bendy would have more choices to take when it comes to alighting.
In any bus, passengers would move in if there is a huge space left by those who have alighted, and if they don't, prompting from the drivers will encourage them to do so. On a bendy, the alighting passengers take lesser time to alight, and therefore whoever's supposed to move further in to the empty spaces are able to move in at an earlier time (lets say its time a) as compared to a double deck, and consequently, whoever's boarding can board earlier (lets say its time b) than if it was a DD.
On a double deck, because the alighting passengers who are the last to alight (usually) come from the upper deck, and that they take longer to alight, people who want to move in or upstrairs can only do so later (lets say its time c), which means people who want to board can only board later (lets say its time d)
Here a<c and b<d.
And all this is before considering the fact that people may not move upstrairs because they are alighting in a few stops.
If there weren't a lot of people alighting from the upper deck of those buses at CCK, there wouldn't be a jam and I wouldn't mention it. But there is, so I think it is still better for you to go there and see for yourself. Yes DDs may have the front doors available for alighting at interchanges, but it doesn't really speed things up by a lot, because it is still one line from the upper deck to the lower deck, and having to walk from the stairs to the front door takes a slightly longer time. And thanks for pointing out, bendies also have an extra set of doors for alighting at the interchanges.
Originally posted by lemon1974:lack of parking spaces? so one more reason to have less bendy..... double decker blocking at interchange causing 5 x912 to be bunch? are u sure? why dun you say bendies blocking in WDL interchange causing these buses to be bunch?
The thing is, in Woodlands, berths can accomodate both bendies and double deck, and only one bus at a time. With the increase in use of double decks, you see them taking the berth for a longer time, meaning other buses will have to queue up before they can use them. And how has lack of parking spaces got to do with bendies vs double decks? Do you think double decks don't face parking issues?