Originally posted by dupdup77:Hi mr SMB128B, times have changed. Since when have all the bus routes become feeder-like? There are much more trunk services than feeder services in singapore. Cheers. Thanks.
Note he said "feeder-like", not "feeder".
Still, there are people who always say "there is MRT" when others make suggestions.
Originally posted by SMB128B:Feeder-like as in ppl only take for short distance and it's not for point to point travel...
If times have changed we should be seeing more EXPRESS and DIRECT svcs. From the looks of your idea of rationalisation I feel times are not changing.
Yup, all for stops skipping trunk(fast forward style but at trunk fare)
An alternative to trains, KMB has already done it w 290/A, 86C, 268X, etc...
SG still lagging, everything also dare not take a bold step, hopeless high level civil service
So has ridership on 67/190/700/960/972 been affected at all by DTL2?
Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:Loading on 190, 700, 960, 972
Just from observation can say, loading has been impacted, on some services more than others
190 - negligible impact (still could see DDs having 70-80 pax)
700 - huge impact (can see buses with <30 pax now)
960 - quite huge impact (saw many buses only with seated loading)
972 - still need to assess, could not make out from few buses observed.
These were observations by BusAnalayzer, posted at the Loading level's thread.
Too early to speculate but 171 can start from Sembawang-Jln Anak Bukit..Full Wldep control.852(Wldep/Kjdep) and 857 extend to Sembawang and can relieve Amdep too.
I think if 972 is a Tampines Blk 518C-Bukit Panjang link, then the route will be split at Orchard Gateway for better reliability and optimise resources, as there will still be Enviro500s all along after being so hungry-monster bus service like 190. The route may also duplicate DTL2 and may see a drop in loading. The western part of 972 will loop at Bencoolen Street, whereas the eastern part of 972 will therefore terminate at Orchard Gateway. Anyway, this will be the only route that will see it rationalised (for the longer route journeys).
Another alternative is that 673 may be rationalised. That route usually goes from Clementi all the way to Kampong Glam. If affected by DTL2, that means will it still be a priority to the Hwa Chong Institution or NYGH to us.
Originally posted by TPS Timothy Mok:I think if 972 is a Tampines Blk 518C-Bukit Panjang link, then the route will be split at Orchard Gateway for better reliability and optimise resources, as there will still be Enviro500s all along after being so hungry-monster bus service like 190. The route may also duplicate DTL2 and may see a drop in loading. The western part of 972 will loop at Bencoolen Street, whereas the eastern part of 972 will therefore terminate at Orchard Gateway. Anyway, this will be the only route that will see it rationalised (for the longer route journeys).
Another alternative is that 673 may be rationalised. That route usually goes from Clementi all the way to Kampong Glam. If affected by DTL2, that means will it still be a priority to the Hwa Chong Institution or NYGH to us.
Since when 972 go Tampines????
*May not be true*
2:21PM @ Bugis :
- A95 at Bugis Junction Bus stop, assume it's 960 since 61 take the middle lane, 851 doesn't have DD yet.
- I was walking down the escalator to take DTL + 4mins of waiting time.
2:50-3PM @ BPJ :
- No sign of A95 on 960
- Reach BPJ via DTL
3PM+ @ Wdl :
- A A95 exiting Wdl Int but couldn't see EDS
So assume that the A95 spotted on both occassion is same, 960 to Bpj is faster than DTL? :o
Originally posted by TIB429E:*May not be true*
2:21PM @ Bugis :
- A95 at Bugis Junction Bus stop, assume it's 960 since 61 take the middle lane, 851 doesn't have DD yet.
- I was walking down the escalator to take DTL + 4mins of waiting time.2:50-3PM @ BPJ :
- No sign of A95 on 960
- Reach BPJ via DTL3PM+ @ Wdl :
- A A95 exiting Wdl Int but couldn't see EDSSo assume that the A95 spotted on both occassion is same, 960 to Bpj is faster than DTL? :o
2.20pm off peak confirm 960 will skip stops somewhere and assuming smooth traffic at PIE/BKE
LTA might not withdraw certain service but possible to reduce buses.190,960 etc still vital..Many passengers just test market to see how fast and crowded DTL is..
Hmm 960 doesn't seems much affected currently...buses running within acceptable frequency (5-12mins), DD - SD - DD from what I've observed today.
But Sv170 have more buses now...the Citaro running 170A. As seen earlier this afternoon, these addon are wasted. Empty buses seen leaving Kranji Stn to Queen St. An OffSvc Citaro was also seen heading towards CIQ via BKE/Wdl Av3.
DTL2 loading has not picked up much yet. Both Bugis, Rochor MRT quite empty. At 6pm DTL2 there was place to sit. I alighted at Rochor, and not many boarded as well.
Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:DTL2 loading has not picked up much yet. Both Bugis, Rochor MRT quite empty. At 6pm DTL2 there was place to sit. I alighted at Rochor, and not many boarded as well.
Reason is apparent. You were at Bugis, Rochor. Mind if I ask which day did you go there? DTL2 mostly passes by areas where people own cars and would've easily reached office via. PIE/BKE/Lornie Rd etc. Most rather jam in a car than squish in a train (even though it isnt that squished). At Bugis and Rochor you would expect most pax to be office workers, who also happen to drive. You may only expect BPJ residents to be taking the line, but again they have 960, 190. Hence the low catchment.
But you have yet to see. Come to Botanic Gardens, it's a totally different story. Loads and loads of students cramming onto the trains before and after sch hours, not to mention many BPJ residents using the CCL, to places where buses will not reach. Yes, it is because the northwest lacks bus connections to various parts of the island eg. Central and the Northeast, thats why ppl are more inclined to use the MRT to get there, and CCL does the job better than CBD lines. Furthermore, schs at BKT receive students from all over SG, hence the need for these students who cant drive to take MRT. You wont expect students to head downtown on a school day, will you?
Originally posted by SMB128B:Reason is apparent. You were at Bugis, Rochor. Mind if I ask which day did you go there? DTL2 mostly passes by areas where people own cars and would've easily reached office via. PIE/BKE/Lornie Rd etc. Most rather jam in a car than squish in a train (even though it isnt that squished). At Bugis and Rochor you wou ld expect most pax to be office workers, who also happen to drive. You may only expect BPJ residents to be taking the line, but again they have 960, 190. Hence the low catchment.
But you have yet to see. Come to Botanic Gardens, it's a totally different story. Loads and loads of students cramming onto the trains before and after sch hours, not to mention many BPJ residents using the CCL, to places where buses will not reach. Yes, it is because the northwest lacks bus connections to various parts of the island eg. Central and the Northeast, thats why ppl are more inclined to use the MRT to get there, and CCL does the job better than CBD lines. Furthermore, schs at BKT receive students from all over SG, hence the need for these students who cant drive to take MRT. You wont expect students to head downtown on a school day, will you?
I observed prime peak time at two stations Bugis and Rochor where I expected huge loading. The private houses starts mostly from Stevens to the Hillview stretch, where I don't exepct much loading except for ofcourse school students from SIM/Ngee Ann etc.
Originally posted by SMB128B:Reason is apparent. You were at Bugis, Rochor. Mind if I ask which day did you go there? DTL2 mostly passes by areas where people own cars and would've easily reached office via. PIE/BKE/Lornie Rd etc. Most rather jam in a car than squish in a train (even though it isnt that squished). At Bugis and Rochor you would expect most pax to be office workers, who also happen to drive. You may only expect BPJ residents to be taking the line, but again they have 960, 190. Hence the low catchment.
But you have yet to see. Come to Botanic Gardens, it's a totally different story. Loads and loads of students cramming onto the trains before and after sch hours, not to mention many BPJ residents using the CCL, to places where buses will not reach. Yes, it is because the northwest lacks bus connections to various parts of the island eg. Central and the Northeast, thats why ppl are more inclined to use the MRT to get there, and CCL does the job better than CBD lines. Furthermore, schs at BKT receive students from all over SG, hence the need for these students who cant drive to take MRT. You wont expect students to head downtown on a school day, will you?
Based on my personal experience, from DTL2 to NEL, transferring at Little India takes almost the same (if not shorter) time as compared to using CCL. You have 2 more stops this way but you don't have to walk the 2 super long transfer links at CCL interchanges and wait for CCL trains to arrive.
Originally posted by array88:Based on my personal experience, from DTL2 to NEL, transferring at Little India takes almost the same (if not shorter) time as compared to using CCL. You have 2 more stops this way but you don't have to walk the 2 super long transfer links at CCL interchanges and wait for CCL trains to arrive.
Well, on the map it seems nearer, thus the general trend for ppl to use CCL
Originally posted by SMB128B:Reason is apparent. You were at Bugis, Rochor. Mind if I ask which day did you go there? DTL2 mostly passes by areas where people own cars and would've easily reached office via. PIE/BKE/Lornie Rd etc. Most rather jam in a car than squish in a train (even though it isnt that squished). At Bugis and Rochor you would expect most pax to be office workers, who also happen to drive. You may only expect BPJ residents to be taking the line, but again they have 960, 190. Hence the low catchment.
But you have yet to see. Come to Botanic Gardens, it's a totally different story. Loads and loads of students cramming onto the trains before and after sch hours, not to mention many BPJ residents using the CCL, to places where buses will not reach. Yes, it is because the northwest lacks bus connections to various parts of the island eg. Central and the Northeast, thats why ppl are more inclined to use the MRT to get there, and CCL does the job better than CBD lines. Furthermore, schs at BKT receive students from all over SG, hence the need for these students who cant drive to take MRT. You wont expect students to head downtown on a school day, will you?
This is why you need rationalisation to force people out of old habits. Not advocating for such brutal measures like were seen during NEL. But routes like 190, 700, 960 and 972 should have their frequencies reduced and additional fleet deployed elsewhere. For 960 an M varriant could be introduced from Wdl to BPJ. LTA should examine why commuters are not budging and I suspect people are still used to the direct service provided by these services (from office right up to doorstep). If so, then LTA needs to look at last-mile connections. If not, it really is a wastage of resources in the form of overcapacity caused by duplication.
On the point about Bt Timah residents driving alot, well, just walk into one of those housing estates and you will realise how deep they are. It is a very long walk. This is where LTA needs to be more nimble. You can't introduce a BSEP service in Watten Estate for example. I would advocate a scheme B feeder service with limited one-way departures during AM and PM peak.
I'm sure there's no need to "force rationalisation"...at least now the crowd is spread out to both buses and train..and bus fares are cheaper than MRT.
Excluding Traffic Jams, waiting time at each station, both 960 & DTL have quite close travelling time from Bugis to Bukit Panjang.
Anyway, I'm sure DTL doesn't reach to areas like Orchard that conveniently..
Rationalization is very much on the cards.
If they want DTL2 loading to improve, definitely they will need to rationalize.
I think route planning of DTL2 hasn't been good. It mostly passes through condos/private housing. People choose to live further away in these areas so that they pay less housing money to compensate for COE and cars.
Peak period analysis
Bukit Panjang - major part of DTL2 loading
Cashew/Hillview - very few people board
Beauty World - decent
All stations up to Botanic Gardens - loading/alighting remains poor. Contrary to popular belief did not notice many students alighting at King Albert or at schools along Bukit Timah stretch
Botanic Gardens - good boarding/alighting - transfer pax
Stevens/Newton - loading is poor
Little India - good boarding/alighting - transfer pax
Rochor - the station seems almost empty
Bugis - not much boarding, quite a bit alighting.
For a small MRT during peak hours there are seats available, and ample space to stand.
I hear the alarm bells sounding for 171. God knows if it's gonna kena swallow by 180 or 983.
Originally posted by BusAnalayzer:If they want DTL2 loading to improve, definitely they will need to rationalize.
I think route planning of DTL2 hasn't been good. It mostly passes through condos/private housing. People choose to live further away in these areas so that they pay less housing money to compensate for COE and cars.
Peak period analysis
Bukit Panjang - major part of DTL2 loading
Cashew/Hillview - very few people board
Beauty World - decent
All stations up to Botanic Gardens - loading/alighting remains poor. Contrary to popular belief did not notice many students alighting at King Albert or at schools along Bukit Timah stretch
Botanic Gardens - good boarding/alighting - transfer pax
Stevens/Newton - loading is poor
Little India - good boarding/alighting - transfer pax
Rochor - the station seems almost empty
Bugis - not much boarding, quite a bit alighting.
For a small MRT during peak hours there are seats available, and ample space to stand.
Essentially DTL2 doesn't serve HDB estates other than Bt Panjang and Beauty World. Residents of CCK and Yew Tee could still consider transferring if DTL is more direct to destination, or if NSL is further away. It doesn't help to provide a direct link to those staying further west/south (such as Bt Batok, Clementi, Jurong West), who will still rely on NSL/EWL for the majority of their long distance travels.
I recall a residents' (and students') campaign from the DTL2's early days to plead to LTA to extend the line to Yew Tee, given the density of its population. Didn't get much traction.
Originally posted by iveco:I hear the alarm bells sounding for 171. God knows if it's gonna kena swallow by 180 or 983.
983 is less likely due to different demand/loading, adjusting the frequency to cater to both sections is more difficult. 180 possible. I considered 177 too, but with 177 going to TT there may be an operator conflict.
Either way, there has to be a reconfiguration of the loop around BPJ MRT if it is going to merge with either route.
i see no reason why LTA should remove those bus service. As DTL is operated by SBST and bus service is by SMRT or soon some of the service is by TT. a little competition is good for everybody since operators now answer to LTA, not board of directors of the company as the last last ministers use to say.
Candidates for rationalisation not in whole but part.
961
Woodlands Interchange <> Beauty World (loop)
171
Yishun Interchange <> Beauty World (loop)
67
CCK Interchange <> Marina Center (loop)
* follows 171 route from Newton to Marina Center
Introducing 68
Tampines Interchange <> Middle Road (loop)