Originally posted by lemon1974:and add on, not many ppl go to orchard road to shop as well nowadays with all those neightbourhood shopping centre... esp during weekday off peak hour... those are working are working, and who else will usually travel during off peak hour? students? will they pay extra for the express services?
You sure?
You are really stuck in the past. Nowadays students in general are less thrifty and have higher spending power. They worry more about eating in macs over eating in atas eateries. Most dont fuss over 30 cents more on a bus if it meant that it gives them a direct and fast route. This is no longer the 80s or 90s where students scrimp and save every single cent to buy their digimons. Face the reality.
Originally posted by lemon1974:funny leh...i tot someone asking to merge 82/107 so that ppl in punggol and sengkang can take directly to city.........
I am the one who proposed for it to be made express...
Originally posted by SMB145B:...
but there isn't any options for those in the NE
Abuden.
Thats my bloody point. Sherlock.
Originally posted by ^tamago^:I'm not arguing for the merits and demerits of the policy, but I think I should lay down the extreme ends and you decide for yourself, where Singapore could lead to if it swings to either extremes.
When I say find alternatives, I mean they don't wait for problems to be resolved on their own when a train line is disrupted. They move their butts, and take taxis or buses to their destination. They don't expect the Government or the corporations to hold their hands and bring them around. They are not spoilt brats, they are a resourceful people who will give you a run for your money. If a Hongkonger were to wait for the bus for an hour, if he senses that buses are not arriving or are always full, he would already have walked to the train station or took a minibus (in HK). A Singaporean would cry injustice and malice, and demand an answer, as if it would solve anything. But I'd agree that when indeed a bus turns up after an hour, he might have infringed QoS which they must consent to abide to before operations can commence.
May I point out that migrant workers, or even skilled migrants, are not entitled to preferential rates in many government institutions like HDB and polyclinics. Their right to use public resources comes from the tax they pay. The Government is definitely on its way there in augmenting its resources, while population growth has slowed down significantly last year. But, let's say, we remove all these people overnight, you will realise the difference they make. Costs, and hence prices, will escalate sharply. I don't want to debate about immigration policy not only because our focus is on public transport, but that it is irrelevant to say we do away with them. Migrant workers will be needed where justified (do you want a 3-room HDB to cost $800,000?), and infrastructure must be strengthened as quickly as possible to match it without a strain on construction capital.
Walao.
It is a fact that SGreans are trapped in the cage of commute
Coz in HK, finding alt meant they get express svcs, and taxis that dont fucking charge you all the surcharges and have you wait for so long to even get an available cab.
In fact, when the TKO line broke down in Dec 2013, commuters had to cram on one single 690! Causing thousands to be stranded at Quarry Bay and some were complaining to reporters (so much for "not whining")
So what is all this "MRT is always the best"?! SG has a HUGE problem with its rails, and LTA REFUSES to recognise that its lines needs capacity upgrading! I dont bloody believe TEL would survive on 4-car trains which i foresee would be another 4-7 min headway anyways. Just for gods sake, get longer trains! It's no longer the CCL where trains have to twist and turn all the time. DTL travels in ONE NEAT LINE along the Bukit Timah Rd and its using 3 car!
Originally posted by SMB128B:You sure?
You are really stuck in the past. Nowadays students in general are less thrifty and have higher spending power. They worry more about eating in macs over eating in atas eateries. Most dont fuss over 30 cents more on a bus if it meant that it gives them a direct and fast route. This is no longer the 80s or 90s where students scrimp and save every single cent to buy their digimons. Face the reality.
please lah.. how many students will go travel during off peak hour from one end to the end using express services?? they have higher spending power does not mean that they are willing to pay more for express services whereby most of them will have bus pass.. base on your logic, then those working adults should not be complaining about a 2 cents increase in fare.... esp when other items/foods are increasing at 50 cents interval...
further, if those students dont really bother about 30 cents increase, then you should be seeing full fleet of DDs deploying on 74E/151E....
Originally posted by SMB128B:Walao.
It is a fact that SGreans are trapped in the cage of commute
Coz in HK, finding alt meant they get express svcs, and taxis that dont fucking charge you all the surcharges and have you wait for so long to even get an available cab.
In fact, when the TKO line broke down in Dec 2013, commuters had to cram on one single 690! Causing thousands to be stranded at Quarry Bay and some were complaining to reporters (so much for "not whining")
So what is all this "MRT is always the best"?! SG has a HUGE problem with its rails, and LTA REFUSES to recognise that its lines needs capacity upgrading! I dont bloody believe TEL would survive on 4-car trains which i foresee would be another 4-7 min headway anyways. Just for gods sake, get longer trains! It's no longer the CCL where trains have to twist and turn all the time. DTL travels in ONE NEAT LINE along the Bukit Timah Rd and its using 3 car!
That's because their activity centre is dense. Take 271 for example. Do you even think you can fill up a DD every 5 to 10 minutes for a bus service from Orchard Road to Pasir Ris? Dream on! Then we take 74X for example, it's like Tampines to Chinatown, or an equivalent area where the buildings are older and people are poorer. Buses depart as quickly as once every 3 minutes. Boarding never quite stops at the terminus. When your area is less dense, you get trunk services or long headways, just ask those living in Tsuen Wan, Kwai Chung and Tsing Yi, how do they get to Mongkok. 30X, 31B, 32, 33A, 234X, 35A, 36B, 37, 41, 44, 46. Entire journeys can take more than an hour! Tsing Yi has a 41A that should have been a 41X, but I have never seen a standee even during peak hours. There is a 63X that skips Sham Shui Po and Cheung Sha Wan, huge population centres. But after a year plus, even Enviro 400's got downgraded to KUB's. And that famous 51 that has 60-minute headway. Industrial routes like 72A and 74A with at least a wait of 30 minutes, up to an hour. You can say it is profit-driven, you can also say it's sustainable and demand-driven. They have express routes for certain places because I have a ready pool of commuters who are all headed to one area, and it must make sense to run express. I just make sure that I cover my cost and fill up every bus to the best utility.
Here in HK, bus companies run services on profit, and each route has a different fare because different kinds of routes have different cost structures. Are you willing to pay the fares HKers pay and live with their density in towering blocks to enjoy the kind of services they enjoy? One bus stop/terminus could be shared by a dozen point blocks or "+" shaped blocks of over 40 storeys. No wonder we can gather over 100 people all ready to head to town within 5 minutes during peak hours! Even running a headway of 15 minutes during off-peak is profitable because there will be standees. You think the buses in HK are not efficiently utilised? You think private enterprises running on profit 傻嘅? I have mentioned in one example earlier that a bus ride from Stanley to Kwai Fong will cost S$4.18 and 1 hour; a similar journey in Singapore using MRT will probably take only 5 minutes more but costs just S$1.93.
And some routes, they are express because, for example, Shatin and Kowoon is probably just seperated by a tunnel or a forested area. There is nothing of interest to the commuters because their origin and destination are so dense. Let's not forget that the resident density of Kowloon is 46,000. That is 7 times the density of the entire Singapore. Even HK Island is 15,000. The amount of people here would have driven most Singaporeans crazy if they had to reside here, but it made perfect sense to skip stops because the people at bus stops are freewheeling. 客如輪轉. And it would have been much worse, the roads would be immovable, had there not been MTR, no matter how often it breaks down as well. And their fare is higher than SG too because their cost base is high! And I know the basis that MTR do price determination, it is not by cost, but by placing themselves at the right price point versus alternatives. Why would they price themselves at cost? They are also not doing a public service, eveb if they are in the public transport business and wholly owned by the Government!
And at evey other post, you refuse to acknowledge that LTA is working on the rail system again. Am I talking to a broken recorder? And so you recognise that HK has insufficient coverage of bus services in TKO. So, HK has its problems too. But at least these people, while complaining, they find alternatives. Go down to Kwun Tong via 601/619 and then take 98A or something. I don't see people doing that in Singapore yet. Do you even see a breakdown guide telling people the bus service alternatives in HK? No, they know exactly how to get themselves out of the situation.
Originally posted by SMB128B:You sure?
You are really stuck in the past. Nowadays students in general are less thrifty and have higher spending power. They worry more about eating in macs over eating in atas eateries. Most dont fuss over 30 cents more on a bus if it meant that it gives them a direct and fast route. This is no longer the 80s or 90s where students scrimp and save every single cent to buy their digimons. Face the reality.
The utility derived from the same 30 cents varies between people, between things. When I say "people will not spend that 30 cents more to take an express bus", it does not mean they will not find a 30-cent upgrade to a larger drink more enticing, and of a higher utility.
Originally posted by ^tamago^:
That's because their activity centre is dense. Take 271 for example. Do you even think you can fill up a DD every 5 to 10 minutes for a bus service from Orchard Road to Pasir Ris? Dream on! Then we take 74X for example, it's like Tampines to Chinatown, or an equivalent area where the buildings are older and people are poorer. Buses depart as quickly as once every 3 minutes. Boarding never quite stops at the terminus. When your area is less dense, you get trunk services or long headways, just ask those living in Tsuen Wan, Kwai Chung and Tsing Yi, how do they get to Mongkok. 30X, 31B, 32, 33A, 234X, 35A, 36B, 37, 41, 44, 46. Entire journeys can take more than an hour! Tsing Yi has a 41A that should have been a 41X, but I have never seen a standee even during peak hours. There is a 63X that skips Sham Shui Po and Cheung Sha Wan, huge population centres. But after a year plus, even Enviro 400's got downgraded to KUB's. And that famous 51 that has 60-minute headway. Industrial routes like 72A and 74A with at least a wait of 30 minutes, up to an hour. You can say it is profit-driven, you can also say it's sustainable and demand-driven. They have express routes for certain places because I have a ready pool of commuters who are all headed to one area, and it must make sense to run express. I just make sure that I cover my cost and fill up every bus to the best utility.
Here in HK, bus companies run services on profit, and each route has a different fare because different kinds of routes have different cost structures. Are you willing to pay the fares HKers pay and live with their density in towering blocks to enjoy the kind of services they enjoy? One bus stop/terminus could be shared by a dozen point blocks or "+" shaped blocks of over 40 storeys. No wonder we can gather over 100 people all ready to head to town within 5 minutes during peak hours! Even running a headway of 15 minutes during off-peak is profitable because there will be standees. You think the buses in HK are not efficiently utilised? You think private enterprises running on profit 傻嘅? I have mentioned in one example earlier that a bus ride from Stanley to Kwai Fong will cost S$4.18 and 1 hour; a similar journey in Singapore using MRT will probably take only 5 minutes more but costs just S$1.93.
And some routes, they are express because, for example, Shatin and Kowoon is probably just seperated by a tunnel or a forested area. There is nothing of interest to the commuters because their origin and destination are so dense. Let's not forget that the resident density of Kowloon is 46,000. That is 7 times the density of the entire Singapore. Even HK Island is 15,000. The amount of people here would have driven most Singaporeans crazy if they had to reside here, but it made perfect sense to skip stops because the people at bus stops are freewheeling. 客如輪轉. And it would have been much worse, the roads would be immovable, had there not been MTR, no matter how often it breaks down as well. And their fare is higher than SG too because their cost base is high! And I know the basis that MTR do price determination, it is not by cost, but by placing themselves at the right price point versus alternatives. Why would they price themselves at cost? They are also not doing a public service, eveb if they are in the public transport business and wholly owned by the Government!
And at evey other post, you refuse to acknowledge that LTA is working on the rail system again. Am I talking to a broken recorder? And so you recognise that HK has insufficient coverage of bus services in TKO. So, HK has its problems too. But at least these people, while complaining, they find alternatives. Go down to Kwun Tong via 601/619 and then take 98A or something. I don't see people doing that in Singapore yet. Do you even see a breakdown guide telling people the bus service alternatives in HK? No, they know exactly how to get themselves out of the situation.
One main problem with SG is, even many of its trunks have become like a long feeder svc spanning over multiple areas. It doesnt encourage long-distance travel at all! How to use as alternatives when you hv trunks that randomly spur into narrow alleys in the middle of a major road. And no, SG rail hasnt been properly done until when i see the CRL. And even then i still dont know if the final outcome will be as desired.
Regards to HK, allow me to use cantonese so it is easier for me. ä½ ä»¥ç‚ºé¦™æ¸¯äº¤é€šä¿‚ä½ æƒ³åƒ�ä¸å’�差？ï¼�我寧愿俾å��蚊å��798, 都平é�Žæˆ‘買車，æ�çš„ï¼�起碼香港嘅路線直接，唔係嘅話ç�‡å�“d車點行到觀繞ï¼�è¦�快就梗係è¦�俾多d架啦。ä¸�é�Žä½ 有所ä¸�知，而家d人講緊速度，快為上ï¼�狗巴仲喺度整快89, 89D, 飛ä¹�é¾�ç�£ï¼�ä½ å•�下dæ–°åŠ å�¡äººï¼Œæˆ‘唔信佢地會特登兜路黎慳錢ï¼�Furthermore, buying car and taking cab in SG is alr so ex, what difference will an extra half-dollar make?
Originally posted by ^tamago^:
The utility derived from the same 30 cents varies between people, between things. When I say "people will not spend that 30 cents more to take an express bus", it does not mean they will not find a 30-cent upgrade to a larger drink more enticing, and of a higher utility.
Ez link card bro.
Students mainly use that to take PT, they seldom use it to buy stuff.
So where else could they spend that thirty cents?
Originally posted by SMB128B:One main problem with SG is, even many of its trunks have become like a long feeder svc spanning over multiple areas. It doesnt encourage long-distance travel at all! How to use as alternatives when you hv trunks that randomly spur into narrow alleys in the middle of a major road. And no, SG rail hasnt been properly done until when i see the CRL. And even then i still dont know if the final outcome will be as desired.
Regards to HK, allow me to use cantonese so it is easier for me. ä½ ä»¥ç‚ºé¦™æ¸¯äº¤é€šä¿‚ä½ æƒ³åƒ�ä¸å’�差？ï¼�我寧愿俾å��蚊å��798, 都平é�Žæˆ‘買車，æ�çš„ï¼�起碼香港嘅路線直接，唔係嘅話ç�‡å�“d車點行到觀繞ï¼�è¦�快就梗係è¦�俾多d架啦。ä¸�é�Žä½ 有所ä¸�知，而家d人講緊速度，快為上ï¼�狗巴仲喺度整快89, 89D, 飛ä¹�é¾�ç�£ï¼�ä½ å•�下dæ–°åŠ å�¡äººï¼Œæˆ‘唔信佢地會特登兜路黎慳錢ï¼�Furthermore, buying car and taking cab in SG is alr so ex, what difference will an extra half-dollar make?
When fares are uniform, if I lose fares by skipping stops, where does that get the system to, when it is audited? 香港人唔怕俾doubleå��å°�å·´ï¼Œä½ ç�‡ä¸‹æ–°åŠ å�¡äººï¼ŒåŠ 唔到1蚊就嘈到æ»ã€‚我仲係天天å��狗巴，有乜辦法？地é�µå£žæ™’，690一定è¦�é ‚é–˜ï¼Œä½ è¬›ä¹œ"ç�‡å�“d車點行到觀塘繞"ï¼Ÿä½ å””è¦�返屋ä¼�就呢é 慢慢ç‰ï¼�
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Originally posted by ^tamago^:
When fares are uniform, if I lose fares by skipping stops, where does that get the system to, when it is audited? 香港人唔怕俾doubleå��å°�å·´ï¼Œä½ çœ‹ä½�æ–°åŠ å�¡äººï¼ŒåŠ 唔到1蚊就å�µè¦�推翻。我仲係天天å��狗巴，è¦�乜辦法？地é�µå£žæ™’ï¼Œä½ è¬›ä¹œè§€å¡˜ç¹žï¼Ÿä½ å””è¦�返屋ä¼�就呢é 慢慢ç‰ï¼�
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Besides, doesnt express svc charge diff in SG alr?
...
Originally posted by SMB128B:ä½ ä¿‚å–ºåº¦æ�¬ç·Šé¾�門，定係唔知觀繞係乜？觀繞關地é�µä¹œäº‹ï¼Ÿ
Besides, doesnt express svc charge diff in SG alr?
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If you cannot recover the cost with the express premium of 60¢, somebody has to bear the loss.
I wonder how they define express service. 858,966 also went expressway and maybe longer in distance travelled in expressway than 502,506. 518 can classify under express.
502 skipped certain bus stops,506 aint too sure?966 more express than 506 lol..518 if only for those Pasir Ris winding part..
I think it will be nice to have private operators come in to run these off-peak CityShopper routes, like what they did for CityDirect.
Originally posted by TIB 585L:I wonder how they define express service. 858,966 also went expressway and maybe longer in distance travelled in expressway than 502,506. 518 can classify under express.
Those charging non-basic fares.
Originally posted by carbikebus:502 skipped certain bus stops,506 aint too sure?966 more express than 506 lol..518 if only for those Pasir Ris winding part..
506 doesnt skip stops, but rather makes use of the PIE all the way to Bedok Reservoir.
Considered express I guess due to the fact that they serve less than four pairs of bus stop per direction
Originally posted by SMB128B:Ez link card bro.
Students mainly use that to take PT, they seldom use it to buy stuff.
So where else could they spend that thirty cents?
when we have no money, we sometimes use Ez-link card to buy food or drinks. at 7-eleven, or at several vending machines which accept Ez-link card payment. #justsaying
Originally posted by ^tamago^:I think it will be nice to have private operators come in to run these off-peak CityShopper routes, like what they did for CityDirect.
if they dun make money, they wont come in.... LTA is losing big money on citydirect services right now....
Originally posted by lemon1974:if they dun make money, they wont come in.... LTA is losing big money on citydirect services right now....
It is always nice to spend other people's money to burn some fuel... but I was hoping that they would at least be more sustainable if the fleet consists of smaller buses of capacity not exceeding 20.
in my opinion, I feel that, seriously feel that, the entire public bus network needs a revamp.
99 (Jurong West) can be shortened to terminate at Jurong East, since not many people actually take it all the way to Clementi. Likewise for 198, which is only heavily utilised up to Jurong East/West Avenue 1.
Have a few long-distance bus routes that perform the role of MRT, then the rest is only to provide first-and-last mile travel.
Do we really need long-distance bus routes that go to every corner of Singapore, or do we just need buses at every corner? Why not have long-distance routes ply main roads, while the other roads let short-distance routes ply?
I think it's more effective this way.
Yes. I know this may result in some bus interchanges becoming redundant, as new bus interchanges are built at new strategic locations (need not be next to MRT, just need to be a convenient place for bus routes to terminate). So be it. Let this be an investment. Short-term expenditure for Long-term savings.
Originally posted by JurongWestresident:in my opinion, I feel that, seriously feel that, the entire public bus network needs a revamp.
99 (Jurong West) can be shortened to terminate at Jurong East, since not many people actually take it all the way to Clementi. Likewise for 198, which is only heavily utilised up to Jurong East/West Avenue 1.
Have a few long-distance bus routes that perform the role of MRT, then the rest is only to provide first-and-last mile travel.
Do we really need long-distance bus routes that go to every corner of Singapore, or do we just need buses at every corner? Why not have long-distance routes ply main roads, while the other roads let short-distance routes ply?
I think it's more effective this way.
Yes. I know this may result in some bus interchanges becoming redundant, as new bus interchanges are built at new strategic locations (need not be next to MRT, just need to be a convenient place for bus routes to terminate). So be it. Let this be an investment. Short-term expenditure for Long-term savings.
effficient?then u will get around 999 services instead.....and lots of time spend waitnig to transfer to the next bus.... so instead of one direct route, u need to transfer 2 times.. long distance bus services does serve its purpose...
dun think so much... let LTA go do their work...