Bring back the era of express bus services!
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That is when i feel TIBS did a much better job in route planning...
The ppl in the north are truly lucky... They have 857, 960, 190, 700/A (and now 972) for full day alone... And that is without all the other peak express routes...
In the east (i.e. Bedok, Tampines etc.)? Only one single 518 for full day... Which runs at shitty freq and often fully packed... Causing the EWL to be horrifically crowded... In fact you cant board the train to PSR at PL during weekend evenings before the third train arrives... And if you ride the EWL on the east side they are currently carrying out extensive sleeper replacement works... Now it takes 45 minutes from Tampines to City Hall...
North-east dont even mention. ZERO. no wonder the NEL is always hitting over maximum capacity. Given how NEL is breaking down more often than ever, one could not help feel how the deaths of the Express and Cityshopper svcs could hv been prevented with adequate alterations
Really sad and pathetic that all hv to crowd on one single slow MRT line! LTA blind is it. Cannot see the importance of alternatives...
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Originally posted by 201911:
While we can suggest long inter-town routes for all we want, under LTA's hub-and-spoke model it is unlikely that such new routes will be feasible unless they offer significant time savings or convenience over the MRT. From Sembawang to CCK/BBT, MRT would be faster than this proposed route unless you're taking this service direct without any transfers, which is unlikely since it mostly connects residential areas.
Between Yishun and Yew Tee/CCK/BBT, most ppl would be heading towards industrial estates, schs like ITE College West or the army camps along Sembawang Rd (Khatib Camp, Chong pang camp etc) or at Yew Tee (Kranji Camp II/III, Mowbray camp). Currently, 171 provides a North-Northwest connection between Yishun and Bt Panjang, serving Sembawang Rd and allowing for transfer to other svcs at Bt Panjang. When DTL is opened, 171 section from BPJ to Orchard/Marina Ctr can be removed, and the route extended to CCK and/or Yew Tee/Bt Batok, providing more inter-town connections. At the moment, I don't think a separate North-Northwest bus route is needed, especially since the general link is already provided by MRT.
Quite a while ago someone complained about this.
Well, I had always wanted to do an inter-town between the Northwest (Bt Batok, CCK areas) and the Central areas (~AMK). I suggested this route as a trunk back then, but now I realise that it is more workable (and profitable for the bus company) as an express service, as it plies semi-express sectors, may not have significant demand, but may be very useful for people living along the served corridors.
So, with a few tweaks: (see this map)
SBST express service 517: Bishan Int - Bt Batok Bus Depot
- Bishan St 13 (NS17 Bishan)
- Bishan St 11
- Bishan Rd
- AMK Ave 1
- CTE (Express)
- AMK Ave 5
- AMK Ave 6 (NS15 Yio Chu Kang)
- Lentor Ave
- SLE (Express)
- Upp Thomson Rd
- Sembawang Rd
- Mandai Ave
- Mandai Rd (Non-stop)
- BKE (Express)
- KJE (Express)
- Woodlands Rd
- Stagmont Ring (Non-stop)
- CCK Link (Non-stop)
- CCK North 6 (NS5 Yew Tee)
- CCK Way (NS4 Choa Chu Kang)
- CCK Ave 4
- CCK Ave 5
- CCK Ave 6 (Non-stop)
- Brickland Rd (Non-stop)
- Bt Batok Rd
- Bt Batok West Ave 3
- Bt Batok Ctrl (NS2 Bukit Batok)
- Bt Batok East Ave 3
- Bt Batok East Ave 4
- Bt Batok East Ave 2
- Bt Batok St 25
- Bt Batok St 23
It connects residential areas to educational institutes (Millenia Inst, BP Govt High, AJC, Nanyang Poly) and camps (Kranji / Mowbray, Nee Soon), so demand will be specific instead of generic.
It skips AMK MRT, Lot 1 and BB West Ave 2 to avoid unnecessary route repetition, to provide links previously less available, and to make the journey faster (hopefully; I'm not an expert on traffic flow around YCK / CTE). The CCK Ave 4 section may also be cut / changed if 983 is introduced.
Also the length of the route may be a problem (I chose to start at Bishan for the Circle Line passengers, after all).Hence possible short trip 517A from Yio Chu Kang Int to Choa Chu Kang MRT (loop) may be introduced, or the route may simply be cut short up to there. If conversion to an SMRT service is desired (service number =924E?) then probably from BB Int to AMK depot via AMK Ave 9.
Please comment and / or help me improve on it?
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How can an express bus route with an hourly capacity of about 192 affect the loading, to a significant extent, on a train line with an hourly capacity of over 16,000, on the assumption of 1,400 passengers per train and a 5-minute off-peak headway?
Patronage might be increasing for express bus services, especially during peak hours, but I attribute it to the removal of transfer penalties. In any case, you need to find a way of routing that maximizes catchment so that demand is huge enough for you to reasonably run them at an attractive interval of, let's say, 10 minutes.
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I believe bus routes with long "express" sectors are only feasible if:
-They serve traffic corridors with existing high demand e.g. housing estates to city, or housing estates to industrial areas, schools etc
-Travel time is faster than or comparable to taking bus then transferring to the MRT.
-Fares are acceptable to commuters, depending on the alternatives and how urgently they need to reach their destination.
The fare issue is why Premium svcs charging $3 to $6 are feasible during peak hours, but Cityshopper svcs failed.
With LTA route planning focused on providing basic bus svcs, I doubt we'll see more off peak/weekend "express" bus routes like 188R/963R/Chinatown Direct. As for full day express routes, I believe these are possible mainly along travel corridors with poor or no MRT connectivity, e.g. North - Northeast - East, North/Northwest - City. (The latter will change when DTL2 opens)
Commonly suggested "express" bus routes on this forum e.g. Northeast - Northwest, Central - Northwest, Northeast - City may be feasible in some cases, but are perhaps not a priority compared to shorter basic bus svcs, promoting commuters to transfer to the MRT for long haul travel.
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Regarding the suggested svc 517 above, the individual express sectors provide useful connections, but the whole route is too long. May be feasible between AMK/YCK and CCK/Yew Tee. The CCK - BBT and Bishan - YCK sectors may be possible as separate routes, though less likely.
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Originally posted by 201911:
I believe bus routes with long "express" sectors are only feasible if:
-They serve traffic corridors with existing high demand e.g. housing estates to city, or housing estates to industrial areas, schools etc
-Travel time is faster than or comparable to taking bus then transferring to the MRT.
-Fares are acceptable to commuters, depending on the alternatives and how urgently they need to reach their destination.
The fare issue is why Premium svcs charging $3 to $6 are feasible during peak hours, but Cityshopper svcs failed.
With LTA route planning focused on providing basic bus svcs, I doubt we'll see more off peak/weekend "express" bus routes like 188R/963R/Chinatown Direct. As for full day express routes, I believe these are possible mainly along travel corridors with poor or no MRT connectivity, e.g. North - Northeast - East, North/Northwest - City. (The latter will change when DTL2 opens)
Commonly suggested "express" bus routes on this forum e.g. Northeast - Northwest, Central - Northwest, Northeast - City may be feasible in some cases, but are perhaps not a priority compared to shorter basic bus svcs, promoting commuters to transfer to the MRT for long haul travel.
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Regarding the suggested svc 517 above, the individual express sectors provide useful connections, but the whole route is too long. May be feasible between AMK/YCK and CCK/Yew Tee. The CCK - BBT and Bishan - YCK sectors may be possible as separate routes, though less likely.
All SG needs to do is take ONE look at HK...
Svcs like CTB 789 is a perfect representation of express > train + feeder
It happens on weekends too... 8P from CWB, always crowded, again express > ISL + bus
Or take a look at their own 506, it shows that even cross island express could work full day in SG...
I just feel that the hub-and-spoke model alone wouldnt work for SG as their trains still hv a long way to go and it is just ridiculous to force everyone onto one single substandard MRT line.
It is limiting the choices for commuters as well... After all there are benefits from travelling by bus
So until LTA gets their trains right, express buses are desperately needed.
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506's rise in ridership is largely attributed to the removal of transfer penalties. It is like the Circle Line in the 3-route express bus network, providing connection in the circular arc, whose demand will technically never match that of trips of a radial nature.
But I do agree 788 and 789 is a gem in the competition between buses and rail network, at an attractive fare with the help of sheer ridership volumes. The equivalent in Singapore is 190 and 972.
Buses cannot match the capacity of trains on demand-heavy corridors, on top of inherent disadvantages in reliability and manpower-to-vehicle ratio. Beefing up rail capacity, improving the reliability of our train lines and ensuring seamless transfers will be a more efficient way. I don't see a desperate (that is a strong word to use) need for express bus services except during peak hours; I would love to see how this issue is revisited the day we find the bus network has enough spare capacity to afford us the space to tinker with these ideas.
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
That is when i feel TIBS did a much better job in route planning...
The ppl in the north are truly lucky... They have 857, 960, 190, 700/A (and now 972) for full day alone... And that is without all the other peak express routes...
In the east (i.e. Bedok, Tampines etc.)? Only one single 518 for full day... Which runs at shitty freq and often fully packed... Causing the EWL to be horrifically crowded... In fact you cant board the train to PSR at PL during weekend evenings before the third train arrives... And if you ride the EWL on the east side they are currently carrying out extensive sleeper replacement works... Now it takes 45 minutes from Tampines to City Hall...
North-east dont even mention. ZERO. no wonder the NEL is always hitting over maximum capacity. Given how NEL is breaking down more often than ever, one could not help feel how the deaths of the Express and Cityshopper svcs could hv been prevented with adequate alterations
Really sad and pathetic that all hv to crowd on one single slow MRT line! LTA blind is it. Cannot see the importance of alternatives...
Becasue NEL only have 25 C751As and is not enough and the C751Cs will only enter service in later part of the year
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
That is when i feel TIBS did a much better job in route planning...
The ppl in the north are truly lucky... They have 857, 960, 190, 700/A (and now 972) for full day alone... And that is without all the other peak express routes...
In the east (i.e. Bedok, Tampines etc.)? Only one single 518 for full day... Which runs at shitty freq and often fully packed... Causing the EWL to be horrifically crowded... In fact you cant board the train to PSR at PL during weekend evenings before the third train arrives... And if you ride the EWL on the east side they are currently carrying out extensive sleeper replacement works... Now it takes 45 minutes from Tampines to City Hall...
North-east dont even mention. ZERO. no wonder the NEL is always hitting over maximum capacity. Given how NEL is breaking down more often than ever, one could not help feel how the deaths of the Express and Cityshopper svcs could hv been prevented with adequate alterations
Really sad and pathetic that all hv to crowd on one single slow MRT line! LTA blind is it. Cannot see the importance of alternatives...
Forget it bro,Even here some ppl also disagree..Beef up train is all the answer.With the never ending breakdown how to expect everyone to squeeze like sardine in a can into the never ending crowded trains?
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Originally posted by carbikebus:
Forget it bro,Even here some ppl also disagree..Beef up train is all the answer.With the never ending breakdown how to expect everyone to squeeze like sardine in a can into the never ending crowded trains?
If we take away the trains, your buses will become sardine cans. In fact, we will see a conveyor belt of sardine cans...
I hope the message that train reliability must be improved is not lost. There's a place for buses to improve last-mile connectivity, and there's a role for the rail network to play too.
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
That is when i feel TIBS did a much better job in route planning...
The ppl in the north are truly lucky... They have 857, 960, 190, 700/A (and now 972) for full day alone... And that is without all the other peak express routes...
In the east (i.e. Bedok, Tampines etc.)? Only one single 518 for full day... Which runs at shitty freq and often fully packed... Causing the EWL to be horrifically crowded... In fact you cant board the train to PSR at PL during weekend evenings before the third train arrives... And if you ride the EWL on the east side they are currently carrying out extensive sleeper replacement works... Now it takes 45 minutes from Tampines to City Hall...
North-east dont even mention. ZERO. no wonder the NEL is always hitting over maximum capacity. Given how NEL is breaking down more often than ever, one could not help feel how the deaths of the Express and Cityshopper svcs could hv been prevented with adequate alterations
Really sad and pathetic that all hv to crowd on one single slow MRT line! LTA blind is it. Cannot see the importance of alternatives...
you forget about Sembawang?
167 is as close as a Sembawang to Shenton Way service. this service does not ply expressways.
169+857, isn't too good as 169 has frequency issue and this involved transfers.
on the NE
107 but NEL fares well over this
punggol used to have 82 to city
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Originally posted by SMB128B:
That is when i feel TIBS did a much better job in route planning...
The ppl in the north are truly lucky... They have 857, 960, 190, 700/A (and now 972) for full day alone... And that is without all the other peak express routes...
In the east (i.e. Bedok, Tampines etc.)? Only one single 518 for full day... Which runs at shitty freq and often fully packed... Causing the EWL to be horrifically crowded... In fact you cant board the train to PSR at PL during weekend evenings before the third train arrives... And if you ride the EWL on the east side they are currently carrying out extensive sleeper replacement works... Now it takes 45 minutes from Tampines to City Hall...
North-east dont even mention. ZERO. no wonder the NEL is always hitting over maximum capacity. Given how NEL is breaking down more often than ever, one could not help feel how the deaths of the Express and Cityshopper svcs could hv been prevented with adequate alterations
Really sad and pathetic that all hv to crowd on one single slow MRT line! LTA blind is it. Cannot see the importance of alternatives...
North east side used to have quite a few trunk and express services (e.g. 501, 502) to city, but they were withdrawn due to NEL rationalisation because NEL was losing money at that time. Same thing for the east, Tampines used to have sv 23 to Orchard, but once again rationalised.
Don't forget Bukit Panjang doesn't have MRT yet... After DTL Phase 2 opens I don't know if 190, 700 and 972 are gonna survive -
Originally posted by ^tamago^:
If we take away the trains, your buses will become sardine cans. In fact, we will see a conveyor belt of sardine cans...
I hope the message that train reliability must be improved is not lost. There's a place for buses to improve last-mile connectivity, and there's a role for the rail network to play too.
Train reliability should improve else what's the meaning of fare raise almost every year?On the other hand passengers deserved alternative,If they cant introduce full day express svc then peak hours operations should be adequate,Like 971E type,6 trips Am and 6 trips evening,Last bus operation hours should be extended till 2000..Am i asking for the sky?
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Originally posted by SMB145B:
you forget about Sembawang?
167 is as close as a Sembawang to Shenton Way service. this service does not ply expressways.
169+857, isn't too good as 169 has frequency issue and this involved transfers.
on the NE
107 but NEL fares well over this
punggol used to have 82 to city
Hehe bro.
Dont play play la.
You try taking 107 to city la! You bloody try!
And you think its a hell lotta fun on the NEL?!
Besides. Sembawang is really a minority. You count all the express svcs in the north as a whole, it far overshoots all other areas served by SBST. I'm not kidding!
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You all took my point down the throat wrongly...
My point being, in SG the trains are still not yet on par and not yet suitable for sole reliance. And UNTIL THAT has been achieved, express buses ARE NEEDED to fill up the gap.
I know some may argue that it's dumb to intro and kill after a few years... Well this is negligience and failure on PTO/LTA part to not recognise this earlier!
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Originally posted by TIB999B:
Becasue NEL only have 25 C751As and is not enough and the C751Cs will only enter service in later part of the year
There you go.
So for the past decade LTA has expected all of NE residents to survive on <25 trains.
Nuff said.
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Yeah LTA made a BIG mistake by cutting short those trunk routes like 82, 97, 103, 106, 111 and 502 when opening NEL. Totally removed an alternative mode of transport to NEL for NE residents (I stay in north east) except 107 to CBD and 147 to Little India/Chinatown/Dhoby ghaut. But maybe these services might have also lost public appeal because they are far slower than NEL.
I would say people here are right when they say express services will be empty during non-peak too because trains are not that packed during non-peak and you gotta pay more to take express services (which most Singaporeans wont).
Semi-express that serves as a semi-feeder and express sector to town/China town would be a good option. For example like Service 972. A service that goes around Sengkang/Punggol and then express to town(Maybe the route like 85 in Sengkang/Punggol then TPE/CTE to town) - I believe this will have good demand because people will opt a direct service instead of bus-MRT if there is a time advantage. It can also serve as a feeder route from Sengkang/Punggol MRT.
That being said, Sengkang/Punggol also have LRT which is actually a direct route to town via MRT than other towns where people have to take bus and transfer to MRT
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Originally posted by carbikebus:
Train reliability should improve else what's the meaning of fare raise almost every year?On the other hand passengers deserved alternative,If they cant introduce full day express svc then peak hours operations should be adequate,Like 971E type,6 trips Am and 6 trips evening,Last bus operation hours should be extended till 2000..Am i asking for the sky?
You want train to be reliable, yet you expect fares to not even rise with inflation at the least. As a man grows older, doesn't he need more money to see a doctor? It will get incrementally costly to maintain old trains, yet it will still be cheaper than to procure new trains. If you think they should bear their own cost, then rail standards will definitely fall in a spiral. And manpower will drain out of the rail industry since, at the least, salaries can't even keep up with inflation.
I believe that ppl in the LTA are closely monitoring every service, according to a set of standards, and will increase trips in tandem with demand. Do you have any figures to back the extension of 971E to 8pm by the way? What's the loading of the last bus of 700 departing 03011?
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Originally posted by randomguy10:Semi-express that serves as a semi-feeder and express sector to town/China town would be a good option. For example like Service 972. A service that goes around Sengkang/Punggol and then express to town(Maybe the route like 85 in Sengkang/Punggol then TPE/CTE to town) - I believe this will have good demand because people will opt a direct service instead of bus-MRT if there is a time advantage. It can also serve as a feeder route from Sengkang/Punggol MRT.
That being said, Sengkang/Punggol also have LRT which is actually a direct route to town via MRT than other towns where people have to take bus and transfer to MRT
After the chair-fetching days of 578 & 581, I'm not sure if they will still dare to venture into it again. Population might have increased, and maybe if the fare is 85¢ more, there will be takers. But Orchard Rd, being a retail area, mostly attracts people on discretionary travel, who may not see the need to pay more for convenience. If they've got hands and legs, why wouldn't they take the LRT and NEL and NSL to save that money? But such services during peak hours to offices have proven popular, because they go to work to earn money. Therein lies the value of express services.
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Bros, I understand that there will be some people arguing that the Government needs to do more to promote public transport. But we must remember that all these are tied to taxpayer's money. How do you justify which service should get the next Citaro, MAN or Volvo? If I start a new express service and need to pay more to the operator to run it, I need to have enough budget to pay every operator in the current FY. But if costs went up with more services, how do I justify that I'm not adding bus services which are not reasonably utilised? That might evoke a need to ensure marginal revenue from the service could cover most of the marginal costs, to keep the budget from bursting. Every MP is going to come to the Central Planner with a wishlist, and so a basis is needed to justify why I should grant the wish of a MP over the other; when the Government takes over the cost of running public transport, it has never removed the need for prudence and equitability in its decision-making.
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Actually, why don't the LTA just conduct consultations with the local RCs and commuters - while check EZ-link card data along the way - and introduce bus plans for every town, like what was done by SBS around twenty years ago?
By now, many things have changed. Maybe it is time to implement a new set of bus plans for every town of Singapore.
Rationalise resources for better service standards, for better rides.
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More rail/bus lines tandem with raising populations,dont ever forget and deny that..Can agrue all day but dont forget the truth ppl facing every single day
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So that explains why recent efforts on new bus services have been on improving connectivity to places of sizeable density of activity. But I don't believe you will gain much traction by scaremongering here, because we can't help you. To "cut long story short", you need to drive your 750cc motorcycle down and speak to your MP, while I take the bus there.
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Originally posted by JurongWestresident:
Actually, why don't the LTA just conduct consultations with the local RCs and commuters - while check EZ-link card data along the way - and introduce bus plans for every town, like what was done by SBS around twenty years ago?
By now, many things have changed. Maybe it is time to implement a new set of bus plans for every town of Singapore.
Rationalise resources for better service standards, for better rides.
They do...hence BSEP.
And pressure groups are on the rise these days.