Judging by the videos that I have seen, the ND 363 looks to be an amazingly smooth and powerful chassis. The gearbox looks to be in a performance setting too which further adds to the enjoyment factor...
I would choose the A95 DD over B9TL anytime,2nd choice will be the Enviro 500.The only thing i dont like A22 is their bodywork plus that hybrid copycat lion hair..Im not suprised if Daimler also began to custom made DD to SBST based on the new 10700cc 350hp Citaro engine
SMRT should order another 150 units more to complement the 201 Enviros..The A24 should order another 80 units more beside the initial 40 units exclusively for 176,962,964 and feeders svc.
Originally posted by carbikebus:SMRT should order another 150 units more to complement the 201 Enviros..The A24 should order another 80 units more beside the initial 40 units exclusively for 176,962,964 and feeders svc.
I think SMRT should order 100 more ADL ; 150 MAN A95. Then probably around 120 A24s. No more A22 pls..
Originally posted by TIB429E:I think SMRT should order 100 more ADL ; 150 MAN A95. Then probably around 120 A24s. No more A22 pls..
Agreed though i dont really mind if they bought 200 A95s with tree guard and 50 more E500s..A22 orders should be stopped..Buy another 70 units of the new 18.290(7 litre version) is enough
Originally posted by carbikebus:Agreed though i dont really mind if they bought 200 A95s with tree guard and 50 more E500s..A22 orders should be stopped..Buy another 70 units of the new 18.290(7 litre version) is enough
Why? Do you understand that the 10.5-litre engine provides amazing driveability and represents as near as makes no difference to no fuel consumption penalty compared to the 6.9-litre engine?
A larger engine working less hard lasts longer too!
Just to complement the MAN city bus family,So SMRT making a mistake buying the 6.34 litre Citaros?
whats the full capcity of MAN A95
Originally posted by carbikebus:Just to complement the MAN city bus family,So SMRT making a mistake buying the 6.34 litre Citaros?
Why? The D08-series engines are comletely torqueless at low engine speeds even compared to similarly-sized Mercedes-Benz engines (i.e. 900-series). Why burden drivers with additional stress when a large, lazy, effortless engine is available with no significant disadvantages?
So why the Citaro 6.4 litre engine is more better than the MAN 6.9litre engine?Is it because of the Merc chassis is more lighter than the MAN?How about Scania N280UB or VDL 9 litre engine?
Originally posted by carbikebus:So why the Citaro 6.4 litre engine is more better than the MAN 6.9litre engine?Is it because of the Merc chassis is more lighter than the MAN?How about Scania N280UB or VDL 9 litre engine?
The torque curves are available online, just do some comparison.
1120 vs 1100nm?
Originally posted by Bus Stopping:The torque curves are available online, just do some comparison.
There's always more to it than full-load performance curves. The MAN D08-series uses EGR only to control NOx out emissions. Aside from the 20Nm peak torque shortfall compared to the SCR-only MB OM 906 (h)LA, due to the lower efficiency of EGR at controlling NOx, the manufacturer needed to carefully consider how the shape of the performance curves would affect emissions on the test cycles. The final nominal performance curves is the result.
And on top of all this, the full-load performance curves do not show how the engines behave at partial throttle. In this case, the freer-breathing Mercedes-Benz engine (due to absence of EGR) would clearly win.
Hmm great explanation,Basically same thing like a Vios 1.5 with 107hp/141nm 1080kg win hands down on acceleration with Kia Forte 1.6 123hp/154nm 1220kg?
Originally posted by carbikebus:Hmm great explanation,Basically same thing like a Vios 1.5 with 107hp/141nm 1080kg win hands down on acceleration with Kia Forte 1.6 123hp/154nm 1220kg?
There are so many variables. You have the gearbox and its ratios, the driving axle and final drive ratio, weight, aerodynamics of the bodywork, calibration of the engine, turbocharger specification and even driving style that could easily make the difference. And that's before you even consider things such as ambient temperature and humidity (engines run better on cool, dry days) and the state of consumable items such as air and fuel filters, conditions of the fuel injectors, turbocharger and so on.
Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:Why? Do you understand that the 10.5-litre engine provides amazing driveability and represents as near as makes no difference to no fuel consumption penalty compared to the 6.9-litre engine?
A larger engine working less hard lasts longer too!
i'll challenge your premise on fuel consumption penalty concerning the D08 and D20 engines. fuel consumption is measured on a g/kWh against rpm scale, which comes with the caveat that the actual consuption is highly dependent on the amount of power output by the engine at the particular rpm. All other factors equal (as unrealistic as it is but for the purpose of this discussion), if a D08 and D20 have the same fuel consumption at say 1500rpm, with the D20 producing 320hp and D08 producing 290hp, wont the D20 still consume more fuel?
i appreciate your knowledge and passion on these issues, but there has to be reasons why many PTOs are moving to smaller engines despite the benefits offered by bigger engines.
Originally posted by carbikebus:I would choose the A95 DD over B9TL anytime,2nd choice will be the Enviro 500.The only thing i dont like A22 is their bodywork plus that hybrid copycat lion hair..Im not suprised if Daimler also began to custom made DD to SBST based on the new 10700cc 350hp Citaro engine
the germans, or evobus specifically, dont do businesses where markets are fragmented and where orders come in on a cyclical basis. the RHD DD market, for most purposes, is fragmented enough to the point that the germans have pretty much stopped doing that business (on that note, A39 production has stopped early this year).
the MAN A95, for most purposes, is nothing short of unsustainable should there be a lack of "sustained persuasion by concerned parties" to the PTO and other companies involved :) it is nothing short of wading into a market with really big names, thinking that small name with a not-as-well-received prior product would get some attention and hopefully elevate to big name status :D on that note as well, similar persuasion makes procurement easier, and novelty wears out much faster too.
Originally posted by SexyMichael:i'll challenge your premise on fuel consumption penalty concerning the D08 and D20 engines. fuel consumption is measured on a g/kWh against rpm scale, which comes with the caveat that the actual consuption is highly dependent on the amount of power output by the engine at the particular rpm. All other factors equal (as unrealistic as it is but for the purpose of this discussion), if a D08 and D20 have the same fuel consumption at say 1500rpm, with the D20 producing 320hp and D08 producing 290hp, wont the D20 still consume more fuel?
i appreciate your knowledge and passion on these issues, but there has to be reasons why many PTOs are moving to smaller engines despite the benefits offered by bigger engines.
You are assuming that the engines are compared under full load. In practice, most of a city bus engine's life is spent either at idle or under low load. Furthermore, simple physics suggests that a certain amount of energy is required to perform a certain amount of work so you cannot assume that a larger displacement engine automatically consumes more fuel than an engine with a smaller displacement.
The downsizing of engines is due to stringent emissions requirements. A smaller engine working harder running at full load more of the time will produce lower emissions because exhaust aftertreatment systems are more efficient at higher temperatures.
Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:You are assuming that the engines are compared under full load. In practice, most of a city bus engine's life is spent either at idle or under low load. Furthermore, simple physics suggests that a certain amount of energy is required to perform a certain amount of work so you cannot assume that a larger displacement engine automatically consumes more fuel than an engine with a smaller displacement.
The downsizing of engines is due to stringent emissions requirements. A smaller engine working harder running at full load more of the time will produce lower emissions because exhaust aftertreatment systems are more efficient at higher temperatures.
thanks for the clarification. comparing say, half-load and full-load, how much of a power discount am i looking at?
similarly, how highly would you rate mercedes's latest generation of engines (the OM936(h)/LA and OM470LA) against the older generation Euro V engines (namely the OM457hLA and OM906hLA)? being a stickler for flat torque curves i am infatuated withe the OM457hLA rated at 299ps/1250Nm, but the OM906hLA and more recent Euro VI engines seem to have lost that.
Originally posted by SexyMichael:thanks for the clarification. comparing say, half-load and full-load, how much of a power discount am i looking at?
similarly, how highly would you rate mercedes's latest generation of engines (the OM936(h)/LA and OM470LA) against the older generation Euro V engines (namely the OM457hLA and OM906hLA)? being a stickler for flat torque curves i am infatuated withe the OM457hLA rated at 299ps/1250Nm, but the OM906hLA and more recent Euro VI engines seem to have lost that.
1. Well it depends on the % of load you place on the engine, naturally!
2. Naturally the 936 will not have the same off-the-line performance that the 457 has in spades despite having similar peak power and torque values in base form (299hp and 1200Nm or 1250Nm respectively). In saying that though, the 936 is a significantly stronger engine than the 906 that it replaces so now there is less of a case to use the larger engine on a standard city bus unless absolutely necessary. The OM 470 would without a doubt be an amazing performer with the same 'high torque at low engine speeds' characteristics of the old 457 but with even stronger mid-range torque.
My contacts in Germany are returning excellent consumption figures with Citaros using the 936 at 299 PS with ZF EcoLife gearbox, just above 30L/100km measured at the pump on urban duties which is actually quite a bit better than the figures returned with the 936 at 286 PS and ZF EcoLife gearbox on previous Citaros and with better performance to boot.
Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:1. Well it depends on the % of load you place on the engine, naturally!
2. Naturally the 936 will not have the same off-the-line performance that the 457 has in spades despite having similar peak power and torque values in base form (299hp and 1200Nm or 1250Nm respectively). In saying that though, the 936 is a significantly stronger engine than the 906 that it replaces so now there is less of a case to use the larger engine on a standard city bus unless absolutely necessary. The OM 470 would without a doubt be an amazing performer with the same 'high torque at low engine speeds' characteristics of the old 457 but with even stronger mid-range torque.
My contacts in Germany are returning excellent consumption figures with Citaros using the 936 at 299 PS with ZF EcoLife gearbox, just above 30L/100km measured at the pump on urban duties which is actually quite a bit better than the figures returned with the 936 at 286 PS and ZF EcoLife gearbox on previous Citaros and with better performance to boot.
sounds like evobus got their e6 engines right :)
while i understand your strong preference for the ZF Ecolife, how would you rate the suitability of the Voith DIWA for double decker applications (with a MAN engine of course)?
Originally posted by SexyMichael:sounds like evobus got their e6 engines right :)
while i understand your strong preference for the ZF Ecolife, how would you rate the suitability of the Voith DIWA for double decker applications (with a MAN engine of course)?
The Voith DIWA.5 matches very well with the MAN D20 engine.
SBST prefer Voith more than SMRT,Honestly i find most SBST B9TL voith poor on acceleration.
Originally posted by Powered_By_CNG:The Voith DIWA.5 matches very well with the MAN D20 engine.
interesting to hear that, was expecting you to mention the Ecolife over the DIWA.
that mentioned, is the D20's lack of low-end torque an issue when it comes to drivability? based off observations, the local A22s dont seem to suffer that issue whilst the A24 demonstrator and to some extent the A95 show it.
also, would you propose a 6.2:1 rear axle ratio for future A95s?
Originally posted by carbikebus:SBST prefer Voith more than SMRT,Honestly i find most SBST B9TL voith poor on acceleration.
I remebered I came across a video showcasing that ZF Ecolife is much durable than Voith or something ? Is it true??