US to deploy 60% of navy fleet to Pacific to counter China
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
My question is whether considering China a threat will lead to a solution to the dispute, should the issues of North Korea and the cross straits relationship between China and Taiwan be put into the same consideration? My answer is NO.
Discussions should continue with agreements such as the UN's 1982 convention and the Asean code of conduct in dealing with China in 2002 should continue, to come up with new ideas for resolving the dispute.
I won't be happy if the US were to leave Asia completely, that would means something goes wrong with the heads of those in the whitehouse, but that doesn't mean that we will have war immediately within the region when the US leave.
"My question is whether considering China a threat will lead to a solution to the dispute, should the issues of North Korea and the cross straits relationship between China and Taiwan be put into the same consideration?"
I didn't see you ask both questions. No to the second question is obvious because Taiwan is much more important to China than North Korea. The first question is more of a yes, because not treating China as a military threat means letting its military gain superiority in the South China Sea, which is not an acceptable solution to the rest of Asia.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
If an arm conflict, whether it is with your own strength or that of your bouncer, can force others to accept your point, then it will be a matter of time when China would have to use force, which they would be prepared to do, sacrificing a few hundreds warships, in exchange for the sinking of One US aircraft carrier. You think the US would be prepared to sacrifice the same. If the US were to risk a nuclear war, which country would be prepared to take the first hit? the Philippines, may be....
You're saying that where the use of force is viable, it is a matter of time before China uses it. Am I reading you correctly?
I wouldn't say the US is completely unwilling to lose one aircraft carrier. That mentality prevails in peace time. The US is unwilling to even stop trading with China, much less bear the economic cost of a cyber war with China.
If it comes to a military showdown, it will be over Chinese military force being used with all of Asia ultimately at stake. The loss of a carrier will be an unprecendented but acceptable cost in the pursuit of such stakes.
High as these stakes are, it will not be a war of national survival, and therefore not a nuclear war. Political leaders after all lead comfortable lives. What are you saying about the Philippines?
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Ref losses, the US wants no part in a globally catastrophic war. Even those who believe it will fight one for selfish reasons don't see how there are no winners particularly among the ruling class.
Obama makes concessions to China like never before, but also supports rewriting USA's entire military doctrine for such a war should it come. The US has come to recognise that losses in such a war are inevitable. There will be an entire class of ships put at risk like never before to safeguard other ships.
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Sorry buddy for the late reply.
sgdiehard wrote:
"No, it wasn't the oil their needed, at that time, there were no oil discovered yet in South East Asia. Resources were part of the reasons for their conquest and it was rubber that they were after, for making tires for vehicles."
They needed the oil supply from the oil producing countries/suppliers to continue their wars effort in China and Korea without it their conquest would be deter. It wasn't about oil resources in SEA, you mistepreted my meaning, wasn't you fault I should have stated it clearly. However, later in WW2 the Japanese created and formulated Karosene as an alternative for petroleum. Yes, rubber was one of the main commodity during that time.
sgdiehard wrote:
"The reason for the conquest was colonization, chase out the europeans, make everybody speak japanese."
That was a logical excuse for the Japanese to win the Asian people hearts and supported their war against the colonizers in South East Asia. However, the Asian people realized too late that they had been misled by the Japanese after witnessing the war atrocities and crimes done by the Japanese Imperial Army in their occupied countries.
sgdiehard wrote:
"You are interpreting history with today's scenario."
No I'm not. Its rational. Thats the reason I see the threat of Communist China because it could happen. They say, "Communism is dead," but I don't agree with that statement. China could have a new revolution should the country becomes more like a Capitalist country again. Any hardliner Communist Leaders could revert to that basic fundamental communist ideology in China again should they take power and control.
zulkifli mahmood wrote:
"If you are the world number 1 in trades, you need to protect and secure your economics interest."
sgdiehard wrote:
"That is true, the american interest. You american??"
Before the US became a world super power, the British was the world police. So its not a surprise for any countries to protect and secure their country economy in global trades.
I have siblings living in the US and a niece who is now a US citizen. I'm an not American but I can see clearly why the US are so concern with the Chinese military buildup in this region. The Australians too are concern because in happened to them during WW2 and the Japanese were right in front of their door step. Darwing was air raided and bombed. I know the Americans had sacrifed their young men lives in the pacific region during WW2 and I know its their effort too that brought down the Japanese to its knees.
Lastly I know how it felt to lose a grandfather and uncles from both sides of my late parents. I'm half Chinese and Malay. My maternal grandfather and uncle were executed by the Japanese firing squad during the Japanese Occupation of Singapore. My paternal uncle was forced to be enlisted into the Japanese Imperial Army or the family will be tortured and executed. At the close of WW2, he was send to either Peninsula Malaya or Burma. After the war he did not returned to Singapore and was givenup as dead. Nobody received any news about him though my paternal grandmother and grandfather enquired officially about his whereabouts during that time.
sgdiehard wrote:
"You have not explained why China is a big threat to countries within this region militarily. Big countries have big military and small countries got small military, is big always a threat to small?
They are not dumb and they know where to strike should they decide to make south-east asia as their territory. As you can see they are very ambitious in trades now and they have too great an army to say that they are not deter to attack any countries within this region that is contending their claims.
sgdiehard wrote:
"If the american change its stance the world is a big mayhem."
In American history, they never attacked unless they were attacked. They would if they have to but it would for the sake of their country constitution rights and second the world.
zulkifli mahmood wrote:
"Should North Korea invade South Korea, China may get involve this time since China is a strong ally to North Korea. China will invade Taiwan. South Korea and Taiwan are strong allies to the US. The US and its allies will get involve in the war too."
sgdiehard wrote:
"There is a possibility that North Korea will invade South Korea, there is little, if not no possibility that China would get itself involved in a war for Norty Korea. China WILL invade Taiwan? hahaha...tell me why."
Technically North Korea and South Korean are still at war. There were no peace treaty sign by North Korea and South Korea. So war could breakout anytime in Korea.
China would take that opportunity to invade Taiwan and claim it as China again. Simple as that....
zulkifli mahmood wrote:
"The Chinese race population of the world would be divided here. Who are they going to support. China or the US and its allies? If this happens, what is Singapore diplomatic and political stance on this issue?"
sgdiehard wrote:
"why should a war between China and amrican become a racial war? We in Singapore don't fight racial war, so no issue."
You have American Chinese and you have Chinese from mainland China in America. The Chinese race is everywhere in the world. The Chinese Singaporeans origins are from China. My maternal grandfather and grandmother were from mainland China before they migrated to Singapore. Now we have PRs from China and foreign workers from China. They were brought up with Communist Ideology.....that is very dangerous.
zulkifli mahmood wrote:
"I'm just wondering whether many world leaders realized that the foreign investments they sow in China actually helps to make China military more powerful."
sgdiehard wrote:
"do you realize that everytime you buy something that is Made In China, you are actually helping to make China military more powerful?"
Yes, that is true. Thank you for reminding me.
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Coping with the rise of China is a big challenge for the world, Asia and in particularly South East Asia. China growth has brought prosperity to many countries but they have also been more assertive in pushing what they claim. There is no simple answer to these challenge. Military confrontation should never be an option!
Calling China a threat is idiotic politically, naive militarily, if stretched further to commerically, it is suicidal to some countries.
Calling a conflict with China a racial war is ignorant and insensitive.
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Any hardliner Communist Leaders could revert to that basic fundamental communist ideology in China again should they take power and control.
You don't know the modern China. period.
The Australians too are concern because in happened to them during WW2 and the Japanese were right in front of their door step. Darwing was air raided and bombed. do you know the diff between China and Japan?
In American history, they never attacked unless they were attacked. They would if they have to but it would for the sake of their country constitution rights and second the world. The history of america begins with the annihilation of the red indian in north america, american have never fought a war on their home land, until 911...go figure out.
China would take that opportunity to invade Taiwan and claim it as China again. Simple as that.... this is not simple, this is naive and ignorant.
My maternal grandfather and grandmother were from mainland China before they migrated to Singapore. Now we have PRs from China and foreign workers from China. They were brought up with Communist Ideology.....that is very dangerous. I agree....
Yes, that is true. Thank you for reminding me. so stop buying anything that is made in China!!!
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I don't eat any food from China- yes, even outside. You will be healthier for it.
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Originally posted by alize:
What does this look like to you?
These countries have their own resources for decent peace and happy living. Spratly Islands should be categorized as an international ownership equal to International water governing. In this manner their military can be focus on happy living on internal affairs and once a while friendship sight-seeing together...they just love dispute...
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Hope the U.S, won't be putting everyone in threat of war?
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It depends on North Korea. They had sunked the South Korean Naval Ship. Then later they had opened fire upon South Korean soil...to test or provoked the South Korean people. The US had managed to restrain South Korean military from retaliation. There would be war again between North and South Korean if the US hadn't intervened. Just like the deceased former president of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, had done during the first Gulf War 1990 to 1991. Iraq had attacked and launched conventional scud missiles upon Israel to provoke and drag the Israelis into the Gulf War. The US had strongly advised Israelis to practise restrain and prevent them from retaliation. If the Israelis had retaliated it would have drag other Arab nations in the middle-east and the Moslems world into the Gulf War on Saddam Hussein side. If THEY attack US Naval Fleet in this region. it will be WW3.
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Originally posted by zulkifli mahmood:
It depends on North Korea. They had sunked the South Korean Naval Ship. Then later they had opened fire upon South Korean soil…to test or provoked the South Korean people. The US had managed to restrain South Korean military from retaliation. There would be war again between North and South Korean if the US hadn’t intervened. Just like the deceased former president of Iraq, Saddam Hussein, had done during the first Gulf War 1990 to 1991. Iraq had attacked and launched conventional scud missiles upon Israel to provoke and drag the Israelis into the Gulf War. The US had strongly advised Israelis to practise restrain and prevent them from retaliation. If the Israelis had retaliated it would have drag other Arab nations in the middle-east and the Moslems world into the Gulf War on Saddam Hussein side.
If THEY attack US Naval Fleet in this region. it will be WW3.
US restrained South Korean from attacking the north? you have read much american propaganda which we are not aware of.
Actually why do the US naval fleet come all the way to this region to be attacked? going by that logic, the US naval fleet should go home and there will be no risk of WW3 in this region.
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Yes, South Korean was restrained from retaliation. Why do you think North Korea attacked South Korean? If all the ASEAN countries combined their naval fleet, its still very small compare to China. As you can see from the current news about spratly, China just refused to follow the international code of conduct inpertinence to territorial dispute in this region. So what is China trying to show the ASEAN countries here you think?
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OR WHAT WOULD HAPPEN SHOULD THE SOUTH KOREAN MILITARY HAD RETALIATED TO NORTH KOREA ATTACKED?
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Originally posted by zulkifli mahmood:
Yes, South Korean was restrained from retaliation. Why do you think North Korea attacked South Korean?
If all the ASEAN countries combined their naval fleet, its still very small compare to China. As you can see from the current news about spratly, China just refused to follow the international code of conduct inpertinence to territorial dispute in this region. So what is China trying to show the ASEAN countries here you think?
SK has enough of its own good sense not to attack NK without being restrained.
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Ok but why you think N Korea attacked S Korea Alize?
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Originally posted by zulkifli mahmood:
Yes, South Korean was restrained from retaliation. Why do you think North Korea attacked South Korean?
If all the ASEAN countries combined their naval fleet, its still very small compare to China. As you can see from the current news about spratly, China just refused to follow the international code of conduct inpertinence to territorial dispute in this region. So what is China trying to show the ASEAN countries here you think?
I agree China is not playing ball. Hence I suggested that all claimants arm up. Preferably with healthy air and subsurface arsenals.
The complicating problem is USA will not be pleased with some of these same claimants getting advanced anti-ship missiles.
Singapore should be concerned and go for balancing measures, and the US will happily ensure Singapore gets them.
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The Philippines realized that their weapons are all outdated and after this confrontation with the Chinese Naval, now they started to buy new weapons from the US to upgrade their military forces. The Philippines realized it abit too late and fortunately there wasn't any arm skirmishes between the Chinese naval with the Philippines navy and coast guard.
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Originally posted by zulkifli mahmood:
Ok but why you think N Korea attacked S Korea Alize?
why do you think N Korea attacked S Korea? to invite uncle Sam to increase its presence in Asia?
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Despite his provocations, North Korea's leader ultimately just wants to be left alone, not start a war.
It would be nice to drop something massive on KJU once his location is ascertained. Call it an accounting for last year's attacks on SK.
High chance his successor will order the military not to start a war leading to his own destruction, and good incentive not to repeat KJU's acts.
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the root cause for cheena to be so rich is us - we and out businessmen did it the moment they start shifting their factories to china. coz cheap. really i don;t need to change mp3 player every year and i sure don;t not greatful that mp3 players are so cheap nowsadays. so why the hell do we need to have cheap low cost alabor and materials made into goods in china? ultimately whentehy becum more rich and pwoerful their mlitary build up it will be worse than the imperial japnese army..
remmember japan was a small country, the only difference bewteen predatoprs, while cheena is a bigger country.