Why do I always fail when shooting with sar 21?
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Originally posted by ShadowKnight:
i remembered the time I went for live range when I was in NCC...was so happy I managed to shoot all the targets...ended up I shot my friends target and she got marksman because of it
my firend also did that. :O . my friend even shoot the night stalk light. Aim above the wall one. My sergent Zzzzzz
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Originally posted by tripwire:
here is a reply from cyperpioneer regarding SAR-21 zeroing..
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cyberpioneer Hey Freudian Slip, thanks for the comment and you're right. Perhaps we should have been a bit clearer. Unlike the M-16, the SAR21 comes from the factory ready to be used without the need for zero-ing. However, some units do zero the weapon for greater precision. Once the weapons are undergo this personalised zero-ing, they would need to be zero-ed regularly or when the weapon changes hands.----------------------------------------------------apparently my ICT unit was not that super... that we need to customize, or maybe because my was a reservist unit, so personalised "zeroing" is not required?anyway..., when my reservist unit first starts to convert to SAR-21, there werent enough to go around... only 20 SAR-21 were made available for every company of men and officer.nontheless we went happily to our first live firing with the 20 SAR-21 rifle we have.given the fact that there were more men then there were rifle, its pretty obvious we have to share our "wives" and gang rape them massively at the range. ( i would like to see how long can 10 men could rape a single M-16 before the rifle falls apart... hahaha)the results? at the end of the ICT briefing....my CO reported that every company scored far far better results using the "factory zeroed" SAR-21, when compared to our previous live firing with "SUPER PERSONALIZED CUSTOMIZED ZEROED" M-16.since then, we never look back... at the M-16 (good riddance muaahahaha).
i would like to ask all of you people here...
when was the last time your rifle fired around one thoudsand round at a single live firing range?
That's the difference that you failed to notice. Your rifle will lose zero after rough use in the field or in war. Your rifle did not lose zero after being shared by 10 men at the range in a single day. Will any rifle "fall apart" because of this?
Read SingTyrannosaur's post properly or better still go and read that thread. Every rifle comes pre-zeroed from the factory nowadays. This is called mechanical zero, it does not take into account eye relief and individual posture. Mechanical zero will be usable for most people unless their eye relief and posture are far off average. Like any zero 1) it can be lost after use 2) it must be reset when lost or it will not be any mechanical or individual zero at all but will be a random setting.
Last time the SAF practiced individual zero. Nowadays they use mechanical zero unless necessary. If they had done so previously, they also would not have needed to zero unless the zero was lost.
I wish you had better cognitive skills.
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Originally posted by alize:
That's the difference that you failed to notice. Your rifle will lose zero after rough use in the field or in war. Your rifle did not lose zero after being shared by 10 men at the range in a single day. Will any rifle "fall apart" because of this?
Read SingTyrannosaur's post properly or better still go and read that thread. Every rifle comes pre-zeroed from the factory nowadays. This is called mechanical zero, it does not take into account eye relief and individual posture. Mechanical zero will be usable for most people unless their eye relief and posture are far off average. Like any zero 1) it can be lost after use 2) it must be reset when lost or it will not be any mechanical or individual zero at all but will be a random setting.
Last time the SAF practiced individual zero. Nowadays they use mechanical zero unless necessary. If they had done so previously, they also would not have needed to zero unless the zero was lost.
I wish you had better cognitive skills.
you grab any M-16 and let them share by 10 men without zero, using the rifle's native "factory zero" and prove to me that they are as good as the SAR-21. then we talk lah... ok.
in times of crisis... us NSmen only want to grab any SAR-21 rifle from the box and use it, without all queing at the range trying to "zero" the rifle... and the last thing i want in time of a hot fight, is worry about my rifle "zhun" or not.
in times of war... i doubt we got time to zero the rifle before or after every fight. you like the M-16 so much, you can keep it (maybe some unit may still have afew stashed somewhere for ceremonial purpose)... i will stick to my SAR-21.
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Originally posted by tripwire: you grab any M-16 and let them share by 10 men without zero, using the rifle's native "factory zero" and prove to me that they are as good as the SAR-21. then we talk lah... ok.
in times of crisis... us NSmen only want to grab any SAR-21 rifle from the box and use it, without all queing at the range trying to "zero" the rifle... and the last thing i want in time of a hot fight, is worry about my rifle "zhun" or not.
in times of war... i doubt we got time to zero the rifle before or after every fight. you like the M-16 so much, you can keep it (maybe some unit may still have afew stashed somewhere for ceremonial purpose)... i will stick to my SAR-21.
To compare raw scores you have to talk about a scoped M-16, or take an unscoped SAR-21 MMS. How can you say one is better?
Don't confuse matters. You have said the SAR-21 does not need to be zeroed as it is factory zeroed. I and others have shown this is not the case.
You have said that unlike other rifles, the SAR-21 does not fall apart after 10 men share it at a single day at the range.
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If you challenge me to make a choice, I will not be alone in not choosing SAR-21.
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Originally posted by alize:
To compare raw scores you have to talk about a scoped M-16, or take an unscoped SAR-21 MMS. How can you say one is better?
Don't confuse matters. You have said the SAR-21 does not need to be zeroed as it is factory zeroed. I and others have shown this is not the case.
You have said that unlike other rifles, the SAR-21 does not fall apart after 10 men share it at a single day at the range.
you dont like SAR-21....
OOPS.... its aint your choice to make... muahahaaa.....
dont like what you have been issued? no problem.... use your shovel...
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I am not combat roled, and my short reservist term is over. Please carry on serving. Thanks.
you don't like your vocation.... OOPS.... its aint your choice to make... muahahaaa.....
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Speaking from experience, its all about the zero-ing and breathing. I was best shot in my company for the recent 2012 March Enhanced batch, 32/32 for my BTP. Won through a group-size showdown, 4 shot radius was about 2cm, that was scary...
If your SAR 21 is not zeroed you're screwed. Many of my platoon mates just shot without asking for further assistance (with regards to zero-ing with the C-tool) from our sergeants and CSM. Always ask your superiors to help you zero the weapon. The briefing area at Tekong live range has white boards with zero-ing papers that you are able to use, so make full use of that.
Always always remind yourself to slowdown your breathing and count properly. Exhale once every 2 seconds and focus on the spot in front of you. The more nervous you get, the higher chance of you missing, or worse, hitting your platoon mate's board.
For the night shoot, do the "Trailing" method, aim your LED at least 2m below the target and slowly traverse up after every shot. Fire when you come across the boundary between the target and the butt floor, not when you reach the middle of the target. This is because the combination of your recoil movement and your traversing movement will cause to you top the shot, e.g. firing above the shoulder or head.
When asked to do the squat/kneel position, always choose the squatting position, whereby your two feet are flat on the floor and your weight is rested fully on your knees. Open up your feet wide, chest square forward to the target but shift your knee stance about 15 degrees to the right (unfortunately SAR 21 is a right handed only weapon) and rest your elbows on your inner thighs. This position is much steadier than the standard high kneel position, as the weight of your weapon can be distributed evenly throughout your thighs. This coupled with your lower centre of gravity will greatly help in your accuracy and balance.
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can u aim straight with yr water pistol?
if cun , no wonder
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wow! massive amount of replies to this thread.
shooting, people come up with heaps of instructions, how to breathe, how to hold, how to shoulder, etc.
i reckon, what works, depends on the individual.
if you like to snap shoot, then snap shoot every shot. if you like to inhale and shoot when your lungs are like maxed out, then do it for every shot.
the key, is, CONSISTENCY.
follow the same process with every shot.
just my 2 cents. =)
*was browsing the first few responses to this thread, whoever you said it, you are right. the SAR 21 has a 2 stage trigger.
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Eug, the problem with "snapping" the trigger is that the jerk up of the rifle is by a random amount, this random factor messes up your zero and your aimpoint. OTOH if you are strong and fast enough to hold the rifle down, it is possible, but that's something very few people can do.
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Underpaid, agree with your point about the random amount of vertical recoil.
Hence, it is important to have consistency in the way the shooter holds the rifle too! - at the fore end in this case
Strong and fast, that's not necessary as the SAR is chambered for the .223, 5.56nato and the amount of recoil this round produces is really minimal.
Also, I believe, in most combat situations where adrenaline is almost always present, snapping the trigger becomes a norm and I believe it's best to be able to comfortably snap shoot and hit center mass within 2-300m ranges
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to debunk all the myths...
SAR-21 can be zero-ed, but requires a special tool to click...you can see two circular knobs with tiny slots to click. It was not designed to be field zero-ed...
However, when it was first introduced, many units were not confident/not informed enough that the factory zero-ing is set for 300 or 400m. You only need to compensate for height at different range. just slightly higher/lower depending on your target range.For now, if you get any used SAR-21, most likely someone has already meddled with the zero-ing.
Will the zero-ing 'runoff' after some time? No, cause its an integral scope built as part of the entire rifle's body. Therefore it does not 'run', unlike a scope that is mounted on a rail, or your M-16 iron sights, which will vary depending on user's eyepoint.
To use a scope properly, you need to look through it and realise the image circle is floating in a 'black space'. Adjust your eye such that the image is centered to the black space, with equal space on all sides.
If you just pick up a rifle, look through without centering your eye to the scope, you're actually looking at a slant angle and your shot will miss...
Yes, you can share rifles, no-zeroing. Provided nobody had messed with the zero previously...or best if its factory brand new weapons that has been untouched. These were factory zeroed and 100% accurate up to 400 metres (although we don't shoot at ranges beyond 300m).