Do you feel better defending Singapore in this way?
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上下交争利而国�矣
这里，我们ä¸�ç¦�想起了åŸå�è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹æ—¶“上下交争利而国å�±çŸ£”（《åŸå�·æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ä¸Šã€‹ï¼‰çš„è¦å‘Šã€‚åŸå�è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ï¼ŒçŽ‹æ›°ï¼š“å�Ÿï¼�ä¸�è¿œå�ƒé‡Œè€Œæ�¥ï¼Œäº¦å°†æœ‰ä»¥åˆ©å�¾å›½ä¹Žï¼Ÿ”åŸå�对曰：“王ï¼�何必曰利？亦有ä»�义而已矣。王曰‘何以利å�¾å›½ï¼Ÿ’大夫曰‘何以利å�¾å®¶ï¼Ÿ’士庶人曰‘何以利å�¾èº«ï¼Ÿ’上下交争利而国å�±çŸ£ã€‚万乘之国，弑其å�›è€…，必å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å®¶ï¼›å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½ï¼Œå¼‘å…¶å�›è€…，必百乘之家。万å�–å�ƒç„‰ï¼Œå�ƒå�–百焉，ä¸�为ä¸�多矣。苟为å�Žä¹‰è€Œå…ˆåˆ©ï¼Œä¸�夺ä¸�é¤�。未有ä»�而é�—其亲者也，未有义而　å�Žå…¶ã€€å�›è€…也。王亦曰ä»�义而已矣，何必曰利？”åŸå�è¿›è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ã€‚æƒ çŽ‹è¯´ï¼š“è€�先生，您ä¸�以å�ƒé‡Œä¸ºè¿œåˆ°æ�¥ï¼Œå°†æœ‰åˆ©äºŽæˆ‘国å�—？”åŸå�ç”é�“：“大王，何必说利呢？仅有ä»�义就够了。大王关心‘如何使我国有利’，大夫关注‘如何使我家有利’，士人平民则看é‡�‘如何使我自己有利’，上上下下相互争利，国家就å�±é™©äº†ã€‚万乘之国，弑其　国　å�›çš„，必定是有å�ƒä¹˜è½¦çš„大夫；å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½ï¼Œå¼‘其　国　å�›çš„，必定是有百乘车的大夫。万乘之国大夫就æ�®æœ‰å�ƒä¹˜è½¦ï¼Œå�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½å¤§å¤«å°±æ�®æœ‰ç™¾ä¹˜è½¦è¿™æ ·çš„事，ä¸�ç®—ä¸�多呀ï¼�如果把义置å�Žè€Œäº‰åˆ©åœ¨å…ˆï¼Œä¸�争利是ä¸�满足的。没有讲ä»�而弃其亲的，没有讲义以å�›ä¸ºå�Žçš„。大王仅讲ä»�义就行了，何必谈利呢？以利为利，å�³ä»¥åˆ©ä¸ºç›®æ ‡ï¼Œé‚£ä¹ˆä¸Šä¸‹äº¤äº‰åˆ©ï¼Œå›½å�±çŸ£ï¼�以义为利，å�³ä»¥ä¹‰ä¸ºç›®æ ‡ï¼Œæ–¹ä¸ºé•¿æ²»ä¹…安之é�“。
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Originally posted by Amitayus48:
上下交争利而国�矣
这里，我们ä¸�ç¦�想起了åŸå�è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹æ—¶“上下交争利而国å�±çŸ£”（《åŸå�·æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ä¸Šã€‹ï¼‰çš„è¦å‘Šã€‚åŸå�è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ï¼ŒçŽ‹æ›°ï¼š“å�Ÿï¼�ä¸�è¿œå�ƒé‡Œè€Œæ�¥ï¼Œäº¦å°†æœ‰ä»¥åˆ©å�¾å›½ä¹Žï¼Ÿ”åŸå�对曰：“王ï¼�何必曰利？亦有ä»�义而已矣。王曰‘何以利å�¾å›½ï¼Ÿ’大夫曰‘何以利å�¾å®¶ï¼Ÿ’士庶人曰‘何以利å�¾èº«ï¼Ÿ’上下交争利而国å�±çŸ£ã€‚万乘之国，弑其å�›è€…，必å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å®¶ï¼›å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½ï¼Œå¼‘å…¶å�›è€…，必百乘之家。万å�–å�ƒç„‰ï¼Œå�ƒå�–百焉，ä¸�为ä¸�多矣。苟为å�Žä¹‰è€Œå…ˆåˆ©ï¼Œä¸�夺ä¸�é¤�。未有ä»�而é�—其亲者也，未有义而　å�Žå…¶ã€€å�›è€…也。王亦曰ä»�义而已矣，何必曰利？”åŸå�è¿›è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ã€‚æƒ çŽ‹è¯´ï¼š“è€�先生，您ä¸�以å�ƒé‡Œä¸ºè¿œåˆ°æ�¥ï¼Œå°†æœ‰åˆ©äºŽæˆ‘国å�—？”åŸå�ç”é�“：“大王，何必说利呢？仅有ä»�义就够了。大王关心‘如何使我国有利’，大夫关注‘如何使我家有利’，士人平民则看é‡�‘如何使我自己有利’，上上下下相互争利，国家就å�±é™©äº†ã€‚万乘之国，弑其　国　å�›çš„，必定是有å�ƒä¹˜è½¦çš„大夫；å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½ï¼Œå¼‘其　国　å�›çš„，必定是有百乘车的大夫。万乘之国大夫就æ�®æœ‰å�ƒä¹˜è½¦ï¼Œå�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½å¤§å¤«å°±æ�®æœ‰ç™¾ä¹˜è½¦è¿™æ ·çš„事，ä¸�ç®—ä¸�多呀ï¼�如果把义置å�Žè€Œäº‰åˆ©åœ¨å…ˆï¼Œä¸�争利是ä¸�满足的。没有讲ä»�而弃其亲的，没有讲义以å�›ä¸ºå�Žçš„。大王仅讲ä»�义就行了，何必谈利呢？以利为利，å�³ä»¥åˆ©ä¸ºç›®æ ‡ï¼Œé‚£ä¹ˆä¸Šä¸‹äº¤äº‰åˆ©ï¼Œå›½å�±çŸ£ï¼�以义为利，å�³ä»¥ä¹‰ä¸ºç›®æ ‡ï¼Œæ–¹ä¸ºé•¿æ²»ä¹…安之é�“。
对�国���义的邻国。。。何以待之？
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Originally posted by Amitayus48:
上下交争利而国�矣
这里，我们ä¸�ç¦�想起了åŸå�è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹æ—¶“上下交争利而国å�±çŸ£”（《åŸå�·æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ä¸Šã€‹ï¼‰çš„è¦å‘Šã€‚åŸå�è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ï¼ŒçŽ‹æ›°ï¼š“å�Ÿï¼�ä¸�è¿œå�ƒé‡Œè€Œæ�¥ï¼Œäº¦å°†æœ‰ä»¥åˆ©å�¾å›½ä¹Žï¼Ÿ”åŸå�对曰：“王ï¼�何必曰利？亦有ä»�义而已矣。王曰‘何以利å�¾å›½ï¼Ÿ’大夫曰‘何以利å�¾å®¶ï¼Ÿ’士庶人曰‘何以利å�¾èº«ï¼Ÿ’上下交争利而国å�±çŸ£ã€‚万乘之国，弑其å�›è€…，必å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å®¶ï¼›å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½ï¼Œå¼‘å…¶å�›è€…，必百乘之家。万å�–å�ƒç„‰ï¼Œå�ƒå�–百焉，ä¸�为ä¸�多矣。苟为å�Žä¹‰è€Œå…ˆåˆ©ï¼Œä¸�夺ä¸�é¤�。未有ä»�而é�—其亲者也，未有义而　å�Žå…¶ã€€å�›è€…也。王亦曰ä»�义而已矣，何必曰利？”åŸå�è¿›è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ã€‚æƒ çŽ‹è¯´ï¼š“è€�先生，您ä¸�以å�ƒé‡Œä¸ºè¿œåˆ°æ�¥ï¼Œå°†æœ‰åˆ©äºŽæˆ‘国å�—？”åŸå�ç”é�“：“大王，何必说利呢？仅有ä»�义就够了。大王关心‘如何使我国有利’，大夫关注‘如何使我家有利’，士人平民则看é‡�‘如何使我自己有利’，上上下下相互争利，国家就å�±é™©äº†ã€‚万乘之国，弑其　国　å�›çš„，必定是有å�ƒä¹˜è½¦çš„大夫；å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½ï¼Œå¼‘其　国　å�›çš„，必定是有百乘车的大夫。万乘之国大夫就æ�®æœ‰å�ƒä¹˜è½¦ï¼Œå�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½å¤§å¤«å°±æ�®æœ‰ç™¾ä¹˜è½¦è¿™æ ·çš„事，ä¸�ç®—ä¸�多呀ï¼�如果把义置å�Žè€Œäº‰åˆ©åœ¨å…ˆï¼Œä¸�争利是ä¸�满足的。没有讲ä»�而弃其亲的，没有讲义以å�›ä¸ºå�Žçš„。大王仅讲ä»�义就行了，何必谈利呢？以利为利，å�³ä»¥åˆ©ä¸ºç›®æ ‡ï¼Œé‚£ä¹ˆä¸Šä¸‹äº¤äº‰åˆ©ï¼Œå›½å�±çŸ£ï¼�以义为利，å�³ä»¥ä¹‰ä¸ºç›®æ ‡ï¼Œæ–¹ä¸ºé•¿æ²»ä¹…安之é�“。
上下�会交争,�便讲讲而已.
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Originally posted by weasel1962:
There's also the super-old Mod 56 105mm but I don't think the tubes can sustain a 3 hr bombardment. Agreed, no MY arty units within range of Singapore. MY 3 Div + 2RAD/61 RAD are located in Johor though.
The math needs to be corrected though. Its only 31 tons for a 6 gun bty. 60 guns = 310 tons or 310,000 kg. Charges are about 12.92 kg per charge. Further range = more charges needed (max for 155mm charge 8?). Also fuzes needed at ~1.5kg per fuze.
What I like about SG is pallet containerisation. 8x155mm shell pallet = 355kg. Charge pallet = 48 charges = 620 kg. Fuze pallet = 600 fuzes = 920 kg. So every 8 rounds ~1 ton. 7200 rounds roughly requires 900+ tons. Each container carries 20-30 tons so its 30-50 container trucks worth. SG got over 4000+ container trucks in commercial service.
SG-MY not going to fight one another (except on the football field).
I've been saying.
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Originally posted by Amitayus48:
上下交争利而国�矣
这里，我们ä¸�ç¦�想起了åŸå�è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹æ—¶“上下交争利而国å�±çŸ£”（《åŸå�·æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ä¸Šã€‹ï¼‰çš„è¦å‘Šã€‚åŸå�è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ï¼ŒçŽ‹æ›°ï¼š“å�Ÿï¼�ä¸�è¿œå�ƒé‡Œè€Œæ�¥ï¼Œäº¦å°†æœ‰ä»¥åˆ©å�¾å›½ä¹Žï¼Ÿ”åŸå�对曰：“王ï¼�何必曰利？亦有ä»�义而已矣。王曰‘何以利å�¾å›½ï¼Ÿ’大夫曰‘何以利å�¾å®¶ï¼Ÿ’士庶人曰‘何以利å�¾èº«ï¼Ÿ’上下交争利而国å�±çŸ£ã€‚万乘之国，弑其å�›è€…，必å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å®¶ï¼›å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½ï¼Œå¼‘å…¶å�›è€…，必百乘之家。万å�–å�ƒç„‰ï¼Œå�ƒå�–百焉，ä¸�为ä¸�多矣。苟为å�Žä¹‰è€Œå…ˆåˆ©ï¼Œä¸�夺ä¸�é¤�。未有ä»�而é�—其亲者也，未有义而　å�Žå…¶ã€€å�›è€…也。王亦曰ä»�义而已矣，何必曰利？”åŸå�è¿›è§�æ¢�æƒ çŽ‹ã€‚æƒ çŽ‹è¯´ï¼š“è€�先生，您ä¸�以å�ƒé‡Œä¸ºè¿œåˆ°æ�¥ï¼Œå°†æœ‰åˆ©äºŽæˆ‘国å�—？”åŸå�ç”é�“：“大王，何必说利呢？仅有ä»�义就够了。大王关心‘如何使我国有利’，大夫关注‘如何使我家有利’，士人平民则看é‡�‘如何使我自己有利’，上上下下相互争利，国家就å�±é™©äº†ã€‚万乘之国，弑其　国　å�›çš„，必定是有å�ƒä¹˜è½¦çš„大夫；å�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½ï¼Œå¼‘其　国　å�›çš„，必定是有百乘车的大夫。万乘之国大夫就æ�®æœ‰å�ƒä¹˜è½¦ï¼Œå�ƒä¹˜ä¹‹å›½å¤§å¤«å°±æ�®æœ‰ç™¾ä¹˜è½¦è¿™æ ·çš„事，ä¸�ç®—ä¸�多呀ï¼�如果把义置å�Žè€Œäº‰åˆ©åœ¨å…ˆï¼Œä¸�争利是ä¸�满足的。没有讲ä»�而弃其亲的，没有讲义以å�›ä¸ºå�Žçš„。大王仅讲ä»�义就行了，何必谈利呢？以利为利，å�³ä»¥åˆ©ä¸ºç›®æ ‡ï¼Œé‚£ä¹ˆä¸Šä¸‹äº¤äº‰åˆ©ï¼Œå›½å�±çŸ£ï¼�以义为利，å�³ä»¥ä¹‰ä¸ºç›®æ ‡ï¼Œæ–¹ä¸ºé•¿æ²»ä¹…安之é�“。
牛头�对马嘴。
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Originally posted by tripwire:
there is also the issue of sustained firing for 3 hour.
despite modern metallurgy, its not possible to maintain a 3 hour continuos fire, unless you are firing at the rate of 1 round every 2+ minutes.
unfortunately.... given modern counter battery technology and response time... the enemy artillery position would be swamped with counter fire within 2 minutes.
furthermore, there is the issue of wear and tear, artillery barrels needs to be changed based on manufacturer reccomendations, usually a barrel change is needed every 500 rounds.
singapore have the advantage that we manufacture the artillery barrels locally, so we have no problem in sustaining the number of artillery pieces we have in war at a constant level, our neighbours are not as fortunate.
lastly, singapore also have the advantage of ICM shells, each ICM round splits into 64 sub-munitions to cover a wider area, increasing the effectiveness of our shells.
assuming a rapid 3 (under 20 seconds) and scoot from a battery of 6 FH-2000.
3(rounds)x6(guns)=18 rounds
18(rounds)x64(sub munition)=1152 bomblets!!
according to wiki, singapore has about 300 155mm guns, if they all use ICM doing a rapid 3.
in 20 seconds, singapore artillery can dish out a massive 57,600 bomblets against the enemy. that is more bomblets then the number of malaysian soldier in johor.
If a barrel's life is so short, army units will have a stock of barrels on hand whether the barrel is imported or made domestically.
Manufacturing a new barrel is irrelevant because a war will be fought and won within that time frame.
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Originally posted by alize:
If a barrel's life is so short, army units will have a stock of barrels on hand whether the barrel is imported or made domestically.
Manufacturing a new barrel is irrelevant because a war will be fought and won within that time frame.
the barrel's life is short, we know because we have been shooting all over the world from india , taiwan, thailand to new zealand every year. plus we got alot more artillery pieces than malaysia ever does.
due to our constant use of the guns for trainning to maintain proficiency, thus resulting in much higher wear and tear. we knew the importance of having lots of spares barrels and the ability to manufacture the barrels locally.
given that malaysia army do not conduct such intense trainning yearly due to cost, its even more doubtful they will actually buy spare barrels just to support their limited number of guns.
its probably alot cheaper for malaysia army to replace the barrel as when is needed rather then stockpile anything.
a sudden malaysian upsurge in barrel stockpile order delivery from oversea would surely raise eyebrows and raise the alert of her neighbours.
singapore OTOH can stockpile huge number of barrels, we could even manufacture as many guns as we want and report any figure we want, keeping the enemy guessing how many guns do we really have.
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Originally posted by tripwire:
the barrel's life is short, we know because we have been shooting all over the world from india , taiwan, thailand to new zealand every year. plus we got alot more artillery pieces than malaysia ever does.
due to our constant use of the guns for trainning to maintain proficiency, thus resulting in much higher wear and tear. we knew the importance of having lots of spares barrels and the ability to manufacture the barrels locally.
given that malaysia army do not conduct such intense trainning yearly due to cost, its even more doubtful they will actually buy spare barrels just to support their limited number of guns.
its probably alot cheaper for malaysia army to replace the barrel as when is needed rather then stockpile anything.
a sudden malaysian upsurge in barrel stockpile order delivery from oversea would surely raise eyebrows and raise the alert of her neighbours.
singapore OTOH can stockpile huge number of barrels, we could even manufacture as many guns as we want and report any figure we want, keeping the enemy guessing how many guns do we really have.
This really stretches logic.
In the first place a barrel may last longer than the entire span of a war. Even so it's only one of a number of spare parts and no logical person would logically conjecture that it is treated any differently in the army supply inventory, much less declare that having a factory is an advantage.
Why so insecure? We have advantages in training, education, quantity, technology, standardisation, integration and enough others to win hands down. Why the need to speculate that they don't have enough spare barrels?
You do know they have spare jet engines. Why not spare barrels if they are cheaper? Don't worry, you can still claim the barrels have been stolen.
Your argument about secrecy. You could extend your argument to say our preparations for war will be detected because we must send our forces overseas for training, whereas they can train in secret at home. Won't make sense, right?