Originally posted by alize:This emotional construct in the minds of China's population, some of whom live in the opposite end of China, is not a recognised principle for union under a foreign government.
It flies in the face of every principle of law and respect for Tawainese populations's rights.
You might as well declare Singapore as China's province too, based on the number of ethnic Chinese and PRC citizens here, or better still based on China's populations sentiments.
Sharing the same heritage is enough for me, I don't need to share the same President.
The Communist Party has never set foot on Taiwan island. The non-Chinese Ainus and the Ryukyu Kingdom ruled it before the Qing and the KMT. (Whereas the KMT has ruled all of China). It is as non-PRC as Singapore.
While China's rise may be a good thing, you should hope they start by following the law.
We should not assume we know what the chinese think. The chinese in mainland China, Hk/ Macao, Taiwan, and in other countries (the Singaporean/ Malaysian, the ABC) all think differently.
China never claim Singapore as part of their territory, many chinese thought Singaporean Chinese would think the way they do because we have the same heritage, they were very wrong, we don't think the way they do, and many of us obviously don't have the same heritage we think we have.
The problem with China today is its communist government, a day when the communist government give way to KMT, or a new political party, is Taiwan still part of China? or is anti china just another anti communist sentiment?
So if the PRC's population thinks of union, but Taiwan people don't think so, can they override their will and take it?
You base the argument on unity of insider and outsiders having no place. How do you know the Taiwanese consider themselves insiders?
It's a non Chinese island, the only link is its inhabited by ethnic Chinese.
Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:
not really, almost all of her neighbours have disputes with her, only problem is China has a bigger stick.
plus another thing you have to consider is, despite all the claims of being a peaceful giant of a civilization by China herself. She certainly didn't grow to that size by being friendly
thoughout her history, she has never been peaceful, only weak. or invading others when strong.
I think he hasn't heard of China's invasion of India in 1962 (successful), or China's punitive invasion of Vietnam in 1979 (unsuccessful), or the border clashes with the USSR, or support for the Khmer Rouge.
China also enlarged its borders by invading Xinjiang in the 1600s, Tibet in 1905 and again under communism in 1951. That's why it claims to rule them "democratically" as "autonomous regions" from Beijing.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino_indian_war
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Vietnamese_War
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sino-Soviet_border_conflict
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Tibet#Qing_control_reasserted
Originally posted by alize:So if the PRC's population thinks of union, but Taiwan people don't think so, can they override their will and take it?
You base the argument on unity of insider and outsiders having no place. How do you know the Taiwanese consider themselves insiders?
It's a non Chinese island, the only link is its inhabited by ethnic Chinese.
taiwanese who doesnt want to unite with china do so because they dont want to be ruled by communist. not because they dont consider themselves part of china.
there are taiwanese in taiwan who wants taiwan to unite with china. and thats a fact.
taiwan and china are one people and one country. i dont know where you got your indeas from. if i say vietnam is china's and you argue i can understand. but taiwan?
the whole world knows taiwan is part of china. whether one cares to acknowledge or not is another thing. but its a fact!!!
if macau and hong kong werent returned to china are you going to argue they dont belong to china too?
Originally posted by dragg:
taiwanese who doesnt want to unite with china do so because they dont want to be ruled by communist. not because they dont consider themselves part of china.
there are taiwanese in taiwan who wants taiwan to unite with china. and thats a fact.
taiwan and china are one people and one country. i dont know where you got your indeas from. if i say vietnam is china's and you argue i can understand. but taiwan?
the whole world knows taiwan is part of china. whether one cares to acknowledge or not is another thing. but its a fact!!!
if macau and hong kong werent returned to china are you going to argue they dont belong to china too?
That's so cute. Colonial powers took HK and Macau away from China.
The Chinese KMT did not take Taiwan from the Communists who were never there. KMT governed it and all of China after taking it from the Qing.
Should sell to them to lessen their internal debts.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:We should not assume we know what the chinese think. The chinese in mainland China, Hk/ Macao, Taiwan, and in other countries (the Singaporean/ Malaysian, the ABC) all think differently.
China never claim Singapore as part of their territory, many chinese thought Singaporean Chinese would think the way they do because we have the same heritage, they were very wrong, we don't think the way they do, and many of us obviously don't have the same heritage we think we have.
The problem with China today is its communist government, a day when the communist government give way to KMT, or a new political party, is Taiwan still part of China? or is anti china just another anti communist sentiment?
dont waste your time and breath.
you have said enough. its obvious what he is.
Whatever it is, based on the current political trends, I think the chances of Taiwan succeeding in indepedence from PRC is slim.
Originally posted by dragg:dont waste your time and breath.
you have said enough. its obvious what he is.
I guess so, hahaha, thanks.
So if the PRC's population thinks of union, but Taiwan people don't think so, can they override their will and take it?
How sure r u?
Originally posted by lce:So if the PRC's population thinks of union, but Taiwan people don't think so, can they override their will and take it?
How sure r u?
not the whole PRC population will agree, union or no union, the people in fujian province will feel and therefore think differently from those in Hebei, and the taiwanese, 本� or 外�, who have investment or have relatives working in mainland will think differently from the food sellers and taxi drivers in Kaoshiung, for the time being the 2 governments agree to remain status quo....and lets respect them.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:there are 14 countries with borders with China. Mongolia, Russia, North Korea, Vietnam, Laos, Myanmar, Bhutan, Nepal, India, Pakistan, Afganistan, Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, not including Japan. Over the last 200 years, which do you see have dispute with China and were given the big stick by China?
Russia,Mongolia,Vietnam,India had wars with China.
Pakistan is only standing on China's side because of India
Bhutan's issues?
http://web.archive.org/web/20060824075647/http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7598_1583871,000500020006.htm
http://news.china.com/zh_cn/domestic/945/20051201/12906175.html
the Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan are soviet republics.
Nepal lost a war 200 years ago and had to pay tribute to china and now it looks like nepal's using china to fend off india
China's a continental power, they've always expanded on the mainland and not overseas. its not a coincidence that her borders are mountains and deserts. its was these that limited her growth until Qing took over and with cavarly armies took tibet.
just ask the vietnamese what they think of chinese rule in vietnam.
Originally posted by dragg:china is not an aggressive country. just because they are communist people tend to think they are no good.
how many countries have US fought with or attacked already? libya, afghanistan, vietnam, korea, iraq, sudan.... and the list goes on. how many of these wars are justifiable? either they kaypoh or they attacked out of their own interest.
yet they complain when china upgrade their military.
its all propaganda.
that's because unlike US
China understood having a stick and waving it is more than enough. why pay through your nose to attack another country?
China's time will come but maybe not in our livetime.
Originally posted by dragg:
taiwanese who doesnt want to unite with china do so because they dont want to be ruled by communist. not because they dont consider themselves part of china.
there are taiwanese in taiwan who wants taiwan to unite with china. and thats a fact.
taiwan and china are one people and one country. i dont know where you got your indeas from. if i say vietnam is china's and you argue i can understand. but taiwan?
the whole world knows taiwan is part of china. whether one cares to acknowledge or not is another thing. but its a fact!!!
if macau and hong kong werent returned to china are you going to argue they dont belong to china too?
the older generation maybe, but the younger generation seems to have come up with a taiwanese identity?
Originally posted by alize:That's so cute. Colonial powers took HK and Macau away from China.
The Chinese KMT did not take Taiwan from the Communists who were never there. KMT governed it and all of China after taking it from the Qing.
Both claimed China as their own and declared themselves as the legitimate ruler of China.
but KMT lost the war and ROC retreated to taiwan while PRC never cross over to invade.
under such circumstances it's senseless to invade, rather they should intergrated the two economies to the point when ROC "begs" to rejoin
china arent stupid. an all out war will bring them nothing but deaths and debris.
they just dont want taiwan to seek independence. as long as taiwan dont do anything drastic the status will remain.
i believe the taiwanese want to unite. the only problem is they dont want to be ruled by communism.
Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:
Russia,Mongolia,Vietnam,India had wars with China.
Pakistan is only standing on China's side because of India
Bhutan's issues?
http://web.archive.org/web/20060824075647/http://www.hindustantimes.com/news/7598_1583871,000500020006.htm
http://news.china.com/zh_cn/domestic/945/20051201/12906175.html
the Tajikistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan are soviet republics.
Nepal lost a war 200 years ago and had to pay tribute to china and now it looks like nepal's using china to fend off india
China's a continental power, they've always expanded on the mainland and not overseas. its not a coincidence that her borders are mountains and deserts. its was these that limited her growth until Qing took over and with cavarly armies took tibet.
just ask the vietnamese what they think of chinese rule in vietnam.
the russian had war with china? if you are refering to the 1969 incident, the scale of the fight was considered a border conflict. The leaders of both sides talked and averted an escalation of the conflict.
The Mongolian occupied china for a period of 97 years. tried to invade Japan but were stopped by the infamous kamikaze. Outer Mondolian became independent, thanks to Russia, were there war?
so what do vietnamese think about china rule?
Vietnam became independent from China in AD 938, and its independence was only briefly interrupted by china in Ming Dynasty, around 1500. After that they fought among themselves, from dynasty to dynasty, and later colonized by the French. vietnam still still remember the brief war with China after Vietnamn invaded Cambodia in 1978, guess by then they forgot china had supported them in war with the French and the US. china withdrew from vietnam after the war.
India, clashed with china over disputed territories in 1962, afther offering asylum to dalai lama, and china withdrew from the disputed territory. Since then china only went to war only once against Vietnam in 1978,
but india continued to wage war with pakistan in 1965, 1971 and 1999, and at the same time continue to supplied war materials to the tamil tiger in srilanka. and as you rightly pointed out, nepal is using china to fence off India, so the smaller nations around China, China is a greater friend than a foe against invading powers.
And of course, talking about war with China, we should never forget Japan. China fought war with Japan in China to expand Chinese territory???????????
China is a continental power, and if its mountains and desserts limits its growth, why it didn't expand by sea, to Japan, to south asia? The US and the european are continental power too, why are they expanding all the way to Asia?
We should not judge a person by how big he is, but by looking at how he grow up, and eventually see how talll he stands. There is a lot in history that tells the story.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:the russian had war with china? if you are refering to the 1969 incident, the scale of the fight was considered a border conflict. The leaders of both sides talked and averted an escalation of the conflict.
The Mongolian occupied china for a period of 97 years. tried to invade Japan but were stopped by the infamous kamikaze. Outer Mondolian became independent, thanks to Russia, were there war?
so what do vietnamese think about china rule?
Vietnam became independent from China in AD 938, and its independence was only briefly interrupted by china in Ming Dynasty, around 1500. After that they fought among themselves, from dynasty to dynasty, and later colonized by the French. vietnam still still remember the brief war with China after Vietnamn invaded Cambodia in 1978, guess by then they forgot china had supported them in war with the French and the US. china withdrew from vietnam after the war.
India, clashed with china over disputed territories in 1962, afther offering asylum to dalai lama, and china withdrew from the disputed territory. Since then china only went to war only once against Vietnam in 1978,
but india continued to wage war with pakistan in 1965, 1971 and 1999, and at the same time continue to supplied war materials to the tamil tiger in srilanka. and as you rightly pointed out, nepal is using china to fence off India, so the smaller nations around China, China is a greater friend than a foe against invading powers.
And of course, talking about war with China, we should never forget Japan. China fought war with Japan in China to expand Chinese territory???????????
China is a continental power, and if its mountains and desserts limits its growth, why it didn't expand by sea, to Japan, to south asia? The US and the european are continental power too, why are they expanding all the way to Asia?
We should not judge a person by how big he is, but by looking at how he grow up, and eventually see how talll he stands. There is a lot in history that tells the story.
a lot of people are blind to the fact china is a peaceful country and that US is the the real troublemaker. all the wars and the financial crisis.
Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:the older generation maybe, but the younger generation seems to have come up with a taiwanese identity?
The older generation may still be thinking about �攻大陆，the younger generation has already invaded china in all fronts and all territores, from entertainment business, to computer and electronic business, and now in farm produce....the taiwanese identity first came up when they travel to China, 大陆人，�湾人，香港人，... using different passports, then this was used by ah bian for political reason against the KMT, thus torn the island apart, into Blue and Green, North and South. The true taiwanese are the tribal 山地人, bumiputra?
Originally posted by oldbreadstinks:Both claimed China as their own and declared themselves as the legitimate ruler of China.
but KMT lost the war and ROC retreated to taiwan while PRC never cross over to invade.
under such circumstances it's senseless to invade, rather they should intergrated the two economies to the point when ROC "begs" to rejoin
under such circumstances it's senseless to invade, rather they should intergrated the two economies to the point when ROC "begs" to rejoin
this is exactly the situation now.
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can you speak english please.
What are you trying to say here? don't cut and paste.
Originally posted by sgdiehard:The older generation may still be thinking about �攻大陆，the younger generation has already invaded china in all fronts and all territores, from entertainment business, to computer and electronic business, and now in farm produce....the taiwanese identity first came up when they travel to China, 大陆人，�湾人，香港人，... using different passports, then this was used by ah bian for political reason against the KMT, thus torn the island apart, into Blue and Green, North and South. The true taiwanese are the tribal 山地人, bumiputra?
It is only natural for them to trade with China next door, just as we trade with Malaysia. It does not make them receptive to union with China or lose a Taiwanese identity. I think growing up in a country you would not want it to change into another country.
The closest integration is visitors from both sides enjoying special visa status as Mainland/Taiwan Compatriots or tong bao.
Yiou might note that KMT favours the status quo, the traditional opposition DPP favours independence, and there are no pro-union parties. Both have submitted applications for UN membership, vetoed by China. If there was a significant pro-union percentage, there would at least be a small party by now.
You may say China does not wage war. But the Chinese provinces were counquered and unified in the middle ages. Two non-Chinese regions, Buddhist Tibet and Muslim Xinjiang, were invaded by the communists in modern times. The government makes a show of calling them "Autonomous regions" because making them fully integrated provinces is not politcally acceptable. They make up a quarter of Chinese territory.
While the US has been involved in many wars, their communist opponents came from somewhere (China or USSR). For some reason in these wars, defections seem to be one way and one side's POWs choose to leave their families forever.
China has always been a continental land power, it has to maintain armies rather than navies. This explains why it did not colonise Japan, and the annexation of Taiwan came so late in the 4000 years of Chinese history. For the same reason, the French or Germans had few colonies relative to the UK.
There is no reason two states cannot coexist. If China hates US presence so much, respect Taiwan's safety, both sides will flourish and the US will be without a role in Taiwan. But then Xinjiang and Tibet will be emboldened, and after 60 years of confrontation there will be massive loss of face.
Anyway, all the pro-union arguments here are still based on the will of PRC's and overseas's Chinese population. It's not nice if somebody decides the future of your home for you, just because your colour and culture are the same.
led is going to change the world and illuminate forever
China will one day take over Taiwan just like macau and hkg.
Going for war? Unlikely.
There are many ways to do it than go head on with taiwan (war).