If Indonesia wages war on Spore, what is the likely outcome?
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
it depends whether you have oil or not, big brother got no time for places like africa, or myanmar. At most they will condemn and have economic embargo which means nothing because there is not much trade between the big brothers and indo.
In Asia, if singapore got into trouble and affect the sea lane, China, Japan, india will all want to be big brothers, hell break lose.......
Let us just pray for continued World Peace ! War is horrible....
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If you are scared of war, people will take advantage of you. You fire warning shot, people fire head shot at you...
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Indonesia have enough problems.
They won't attack us for no reason.
Even Superpower like China don't wage war on Taiwan unless Taiwan declare independence.
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If you wake up and find yourself in the middle of "....all tall buildings more than 20 floors will be torn down and execuations ....murdering ....starvation....poisoned water...cholera..diarohea..burning everyday everywhere..men n wimen screamin ....murder,,burning..destruction...." you are either already in hell or you took the wrong medicine.
We would know if Indo is controlled by terrorists. An attack on Singapore would not come overnight, this is the 21st century.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
If you wake up and find yourself in the middle of "....all tall buildings more than 20 floors will be torn down and execuations ....murdering ....starvation....poisoned water...cholera..diarohea..burning everyday everywhere..men n wimen screamin ....murder,,burning..destruction...." you are either already in hell or you took the wrong medicine.
We would know if Indo is controlled by terrorists. An attack on Singapore would not come overnight, this is the 21st century.
it doesnt matter if this is the 1st century or the 31st century.as long as men rule the planet there will be disorder.humans are destructive by nature and in each century from 1st century to 20th century humans have brought about death n destruction thru greed,stupidity,wanton violence and indifference.
tell me which century or how many centuries did the human race saw any peace?i can tell u none........so whether it is the 21st century of 31st century there is always be imperfect humans who wanna run the whole show thinking they are the best.
to say this is the 21st century and everything will be peaceful..........is extremely shortsighted.what makes u think the 21st xcentury is better n less violent than the 20th century or the 19th century??if u care to take a closer look..seems like the wars kill more thab ever as the centuries get more advanced!!!!hahaha..... think again!!!
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Rank Death Toll Cause Centuries 1 63 million Second World War 20C 2 40 million Mao Zedong (mostly famine) 20C 40 million Genghis Khan 13C 4 27 million British India (mostly famine) 19C 5 25 million Fall of the Ming Dynasty 17C 6 20 million Taiping Rebellion 19C 20 million Joseph Stalin 20C 8 19 million Mideast Slave Trade 7C-19C 9 17 million Timur Lenk 14C-15C 10 16 million Atlantic Slave Trade 15C-19C 11 15 million First World War 20C 15 million Conquest of the Americas 15C-19C 13 13 million Muslim Conquest of India 11C-18C 14 10 million An Lushan Revolt 8C 10 million Xin Dynasty 1C 16 9 million Russian Civil War 20C 17 8 million Fall of Rome 5C 8 million Congo Free State 19C-20C 19 7½ million Thirty Years War 17C 7½ million Fall of the Yuan Dynasty 14C as we get more advanced...we have even better and faster weapons to get rid of our neighbours,work colleagues and whoever u hate.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
If you wake up and find yourself in the middle of "....all tall buildings more than 20 floors will be torn down and execuations ....murdering ....starvation....poisoned water...cholera..diarohea..burning everyday everywhere..men n wimen screamin ....murder,,burning..destruction...." you are either already in hell or you took the wrong medicine.
We would know if Indo is controlled by terrorists. An attack on Singapore would not come overnight, this is the 21st century.
It's possible in the present century... If North Korea attacks South Korea, how much warning would SK have? Perhaps a few minutes before 100,000 shells a minute land.
If you replace "shells" with "SCUDs" or "ASTROS", it's possible you may find yourself in the same situation.
If the Indo government turns hostile, you will have strategic warning of a conventional buildup or terror plots years in advance, but that's about it.
Say enemy MLRS are aimed at you and on permanent alert. Watcha gonna do about it?
Say they fire a few rounds. Watcha gonna do? You don't see South Korea invading North Korea, or even retaliating over 60 years of provocation and hundreds of dead. And South Korea has the capacity to defeat and occupy North Korea. I don't think Singapore has the capacity to occupy even a single state or province of any other country. Even assuming you're allowed to draft other countries' citizens into the SAF. I believe they have the right to go home. Don't even think of putting them before a firing squad.
This is a most unfavourable situation. Singapore has little deterrent to aggression beyond the ability to repel an enemy thrust, perhaps even decisively repel it, which *hopefully* leads to the collapse of the aggressor government.
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Originally posted by alize:
It's possible in the present century... If North Korea attacks South Korea, how much warning would you have? Perhaps a few minutes before 100,000 shells a minute land.
You will have strategic warning of a buildup years in advance, but you won't have a right to attack.
If you replace "shells" with "SCUDs" or "ASTROS", it's possible you may be in the same situation.
Will South Korea be surprised when 100,000 shells came down on them from the north this afternoon? No, the two countries are at technically at war with one another, and the south are always ready for such thing.
Will Taiwan be surprised when hundreds of missiles rain down on Taipei tonight? Yes, even though the missiles have been deployed at fujian facing taiwan for a long time. But the two sides are now on good term, and have their own people on the other sides, for tourism, for business, for visiting relatives....
Will Singapore be surprised when suddenly a few Astros were fired at Singapore tomorrow? Yes, because Malaysia and Singapore are on the path of good relationship for better of our future, besides, there is no sign of any astros deployed in such as way that would threaten Singapore.
There is more to starting a war than simply military maneuver. A tactical surprise is possible but not strategic surprise in this 21st century. But south korea, or Singapore will never wake up finding "....all tall buildings more than 20 floors will be torn down and execuations ....murdering ....starvation....poisoned water...cholera..diarohea..burning everyday everywhere..men n wimen screamin ....murder,,burning..destruction...."
a total destruction is possible if a terrorists in Russia or a rogue US general land an ICBM on us for whatever reason. When that happened, nobody will be around to scream or shout....of course, those who had run to oz would continue to blame the pap..... or may be they had been hoping for apocalypse in Singapore.
The more likely scenario would be you get your routine recall but were issued live ammo and go into action without knowing what is happening. when that happened, you should be glad you were trained and you are armed.
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sgdie hard, and give me one good reason why spore will not wake up seeing poisoned water,death and starvation?because ..........they suddenly grew wiser and better overnight??they grew a halo on head? if u say that all wont happen...then i believe theres a tooth fairy and the world is a peaceful kind and ethiopian society where the only deaths would be crimes of passion.
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This world is screwed. Just live it the way we want to
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We Singapore should conquer Indonesia then we can have many land like Japanese in world war 2.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
Will South Korea be surprised when 100,000 shells came down on them from the north this afternoon? No, the two countries are at technically at war with one another, and the south are always ready for such thing.
Will Taiwan be surprised when hundreds of missiles rain down on Taipei tonight? Yes, even though the missiles have been deployed at fujian facing taiwan for a long time. But the two sides are now on good term, and have their own people on the other sides, for tourism, for business, for visiting relatives....
Will Singapore be surprised when suddenly a few Astros were fired at Singapore tomorrow? Yes, because Malaysia and Singapore are on the path of good relationship for better of our future, besides, there is no sign of any astros deployed in such as way that would threaten Singapore.
There is more to starting a war than simply military maneuver. A tactical surprise is possible but not strategic surprise in this 21st century. But south korea, or Singapore will never wake up finding "....all tall buildings more than 20 floors will be torn down and execuations ....murdering ....starvation....poisoned water...cholera..diarohea..burning everyday everywhere..men n wimen screamin ....murder,,burning..destruction...."
a total destruction is possible if a terrorists in Russia or a rogue US general land an ICBM on us for whatever reason. When that happened, nobody will be around to scream or shout....of course, those who had run to oz would continue to blame the pap..... or may be they had been hoping for apocalypse in Singapore.
The more likely scenario would be you get your routine recall but were issued live ammo and go into action without knowing what is happening. when that happened, you should be glad you were trained and you are armed.
I thought I made a post but it didn't appear, so here it is again:
That's exactly what I meant by strategic surprise being unlikely. You may have full knowledge of a buildup, but in times of peace, you may not be able to do anything about it. When there he buildup may be so great that strategic or tactical warning is of little value.
This is especially true of a North Korea or China style missile / artillery attack. South Korea and Taiwan have it bad enough. The defensive (C-RAM, missile defence) and offensive countermeasures (fighters, cruise missiles) to these weapons are not good enough to save these countries, let alone a small country like Singapore.
Which is what makes an attack especially tempting.
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Originally posted by Director Hitman:
sgdie hard,
and give me one good reason why spore will not wake up seeing poisoned water,death and starvation?because ….......they suddenly grew wiser and better overnight??they grew a halo on head?
if u say that all wont happen…then i believe theres a tooth fairy and the world is a peaceful kind and ethiopian society where the only deaths would be crimes of passion.
Who are the they with halo on the head? Singaporean?
We make friends with all countries near and far through diplomatic, economic and cultural relations. We engage our neighboring countries to settle all disputes. We have no reason to believe they want to attack us. We build a strong defence during peace time, hopeful it is a strong enough deterrance for moron who might want to try their luck. We have sufficient means for early warning for any trouble, from an all out war to terrorists attack. We can sleep in peace, I can sleep in peace in Singapore.
There are horrible places in the world, water are not drinkable even before anybody poison it. But there are also peaceful places in the world, Singapore is one of them. is the place you stay peaceful?
Why do you fear that when you wake up in the morning you will get a mouth full of poisoned water when you brush your teeth? Why are you so scared that you would starve?
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Originally posted by alize:
I thought I made a post but it didn't appear, so here it is again:
That's exactly what I meant by strategic surprise being unlikely. You may have full knowledge of a buildup, but in times of peace, you may not be able to do anything about it. When there he buildup may be so great that strategic or tactical warning is of little value.
This is especially true of a North Korea or China style missile / artillery attack. South Korea and Taiwan have it bad enough. The defensive (C-RAM, missile defence) and offensive countermeasures (fighters, cruise missiles) to these weapons are not good enough to save these countries, let alone a small country like Singapore.
Which is what makes an attack especially tempting.
I get what you mean, but this is exactly the reason why the US find justification to station in South Korea, and the aircraft carriers in Japan. Of course, nothing like this can prevent South Korea or Taiwan from destruction when hell break loose. But why hasn't North Korea or China launched the attack? it is because of the consequences.
First of all, there is nothing to gain from a South Korea or Taiwan, for Singapore for that matter, that is burnt to the ground! Secondly, the onslaught of the rest of the world on any blatant attack would be a high cost for north korea, and even China, let alone the countries around us, to bear.
I do not believe that we might wake up one morning and find "....all tall buildings more than 20 floors will be torn down and executions....murdering ....starvation....poisoned water...cholera..diarohea..burning everyday everywhere..men n wimen screamin....murder,,burning..destruction...." ,
It that really happended, it will be after an all out war, in which we lost.
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Originally posted by Almond Cookies:
We Singapore should conquer Indonesia then we can have many land like Japanese in world war 2.
actually, if indonesia were to be hostile to us, we would need Bintan and Batam, to say the least, as our buffer. We may need an independent Aceh to allow for free sea lane along the Malacca Straits.
Pray that there will not be the day, nobody would benefit, it will be trouble for everybody.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
I get what you mean, but this is exactly the reason why the US find justification to station in South Korea, and the aircraft carriers in Japan. Of course, nothing like this can prevent South Korea or Taiwan from destruction when hell break loose. But why hasn't North Korea or China launched the attack? it is because of the consequences.
First of all, there is nothing to gain from a South Korea or Taiwan, for Singapore for that matter, that is burnt to the ground! Secondly, the onslaught of the rest of the world on any blatant attack would be a high cost for north korea, and even China, let alone the countries around us, to bear.
I do not believe that we might wake up one morning and find "....all tall buildings more than 20 floors will be torn down and executions....murdering ....starvation....poisoned water...cholera..diarohea..burning everyday everywhere..men n wimen screamin....murder,,burning..destruction...." ,
It that really happended, it will be after an all out war, in which we lost.
It certainly are not the physical assets that matter, but the foreign reserves.
If a country is completely occupied, other countries will freeze the reserves. But with time, when it is clear the situation is not reversible and there is more interest in developing trade than in holding grudges on behalf of a state that does not exist, they will be unfrozen for the victor's use. The other benefit is a distracting and unifying war for an unpopular regime. In some wars nationalism turns the people against opposition groups that are getting too popular.
Actually the situation hitman described occurred in East Timor. The native population was either used as slave labour or suffered preventable deaths from abuse or deprivation.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
actually, if indonesia were to be hostile to us, we would need Bintan and Batam, to say the least, as our buffer. We may need an independent Aceh to allow for free sea lane along the Malacca Straits.
Pray that there will not be the day, nobody would benefit, it will be trouble for everybody.
sgdiehard,give yer hands a break.....we know yer mind already took a holiday la ong long time ago ina far far away galaxy.
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Originally posted by Director Hitman:
sgdiehard,give yer hands a break.....we know yer mind already took a holiday la ong long time ago ina far far away galaxy.
haha...you are right, our galaxy is very very far apart, and here in Singapore I take holiday once in a while, and you are welcome to visit us, and I assure you, you won't have to be fearful of rape....the next day you wake up.
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Originally posted by sgdiehard:
Will South Korea be surprised when 100,000 shells came down on them from the north this afternoon? No, the two countries are at technically at war with one another, and the south are always ready for such thing.
Will Taiwan be surprised when hundreds of missiles rain down on Taipei tonight? Yes, even though the missiles have been deployed at fujian facing taiwan for a long time. But the two sides are now on good term, and have their own people on the other sides, for tourism, for business, for visiting relatives....
Will Singapore be surprised when suddenly a few Astros were fired at Singapore tomorrow? Yes, because Malaysia and Singapore are on the path of good relationship for better of our future, besides, there is no sign of any astros deployed in such as way that would threaten Singapore.
There is more to starting a war than simply military maneuver. A tactical surprise is possible but not strategic surprise in this 21st century. But south korea, or Singapore will never wake up finding "....all tall buildings more than 20 floors will be torn down and execuations ....murdering ....starvation....poisoned water...cholera..diarohea..burning everyday everywhere..men n wimen screamin ....murder,,burning..destruction...."
a total destruction is possible if a terrorists in Russia or a rogue US general land an ICBM on us for whatever reason. When that happened, nobody will be around to scream or shout....of course, those who had run to oz would continue to blame the pap..... or may be they had been hoping for apocalypse in Singapore.
The more likely scenario would be you get your routine recall but were issued live ammo and go into action without knowing what is happening. when that happened, you should be glad you were trained and you are armed.
If Pan green wins next year and delcare independence. Taiwan will be destroyed.Status quo is better.
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Originally posted by Almond Cookies:
If Pan green wins next year and delcare independence. Taiwan will be destroyed.Status quo is better.
Status quo is aleady de facto independence.
Hopefully this can continue for a few more decades and Taiwan can make the case at the international court for independence based on a century of separation, China's warlike actions and the starvation and destruction that Taiwan would have endured had China's invasion of Taiwan in the 50s succeeded.
That will teach China to be more humble, to negotiate as equals.
With reference to East Timor and Yugoslavia, regardless of past circumstances no country has a right to re-unite territories by force. They can go their own way.
Japan just discovered rare earths on the seabed. Hopefully Taiwan can join Korea and Japan as a counterbalance to China, until such time it learns to behave.
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Originally posted by Almond Cookies:
We Singapore should conquer Indonesia then we can have many land like Japanese in world war 2.
Yeap - you get the land + the people there = then all your resources go toward feeding them !!! -
It's in SAF's interest to fight air and sea. war as much as possible.
If there's a ground war and both countries use 5.56... I think many regulars mysteriously won't survive...
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I am not sure of most of you actually study the type of weapons, or the georgraphy, or the geo-politics, or distribution of where their forces are station of indonesia before.....but I did (not deep study), but enough to make some deduction.
It is actually very very hard for us or for them to invade each other. dropping a few bombs from plane or missle (who has land based missle that can fly 600 miles across sea bet SG and Jkt?) in SEA?
No one. So only land forces can do invasion. That is why blue water fleet is the only force projection in modern day. Both of us do not have it. Think of Desert storm - it was the largest logistic exercise in the history of men. It is no joke moving millions of tonnes of equipment, ammunition, POL (water, petrol, oil etc), food, people, vehicles, over even a small long kang of 10m. For 10m - already need to build bridges. What about 600 miles???
So it is left to who got better navy and air force - so fight there. a few hundred sampans armed with a boatload of 12 soldiers each holding a rifle with 300+ bullets over rough seas is NOT going to harm people.
but what is fearful are the hidden type - the lone ranger who slip in to plant dirty bombs or you know what lah....those will be so hard do detect. if you cannot detect you cannot protect or prevent easily.
the only fear i have of indonesia is if their rich tourist stop coming to our casino that helped to make it number 1 or 2 now :)
so keep them coming and welcome their torist medical dollars. try Mount E - in any light any time of day - you hear bahasa spoken.
so let there be peace...we co-exist happily :)
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Originally posted by alize:
It certainly are not the physical assets that matter, but the foreign reserves.
If a country is completely occupied, other countries will freeze the reserves. But with time, when it is clear the situation is not reversible and there is more interest in developing trade than in holding grudges on behalf of a state that does not exist, they will be unfrozen for the victor's use. The other benefit is a distracting and unifying war for an unpopular regime. In some wars nationalism turns the people against opposition groups that are getting too popular.
Actually the situation hitman described occurred in East Timor. The native population was either used as slave labour or suffered preventable deaths from abuse or deprivation.
why compare Singapore with East Timor? even Kuwait is not a good comparison.
Unless the UN recognizes the invader, there is no enforcement for anybody to give the occupier the frozen money, why can they simply keep the money for themselves? Iraq was a victor in kuwait for not very long, who else in the present era can occupy another country by force and became the bonefide owner of the land?
Argentina attacked folkland to distract and try to unify the country under the unpopular regime, what happened next?
The question boils down to Singaporean? Will We Fight?
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Originally posted by Jowen7777:
I am not sure of most of you actually study the type of weapons, or the georgraphy, or the geo-politics, or distribution of where their forces are station of indonesia before.....but I did (not deep study), but enough to make some deduction.
It is actually very very hard for us or for them to invade each other. dropping a few bombs from plane or missle (who has land based missle that can fly 600 miles across sea bet SG and Jkt?) in SEA?
No one. So only land forces can do invasion. That is why blue water fleet is the only force projection in modern day. Both of us do not have it. Think of Desert storm - it was the largest logistic exercise in the history of men. It is no joke moving millions of tonnes of equipment, ammunition, POL (water, petrol, oil etc), food, people, vehicles, over even a small long kang of 10m. For 10m - already need to build bridges. What about 600 miles???
So it is left to who got better navy and air force - so fight there. a few hundred sampans armed with a boatload of 12 soldiers each holding a rifle with 300+ bullets over rough seas is NOT going to harm people.
but what is fearful are the hidden type - the lone ranger who slip in to plant dirty bombs or you know what lah....those will be so hard do detect. if you cannot detect you cannot protect or prevent easily.
the only fear i have of indonesia is if their rich tourist stop coming to our casino that helped to make it number 1 or 2 now :)
so keep them coming and welcome their torist medical dollars. try Mount E - in any light any time of day - you hear bahasa spoken.
so let there be peace...we co-exist happily :)
Your last sentence is absolutely right, we co-exist happily, no reason why anybody want to wage war suddenly.