Inadequate SAF Small Arms Sights
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I don't think anyone said that SAF conscripts are "Unable" to use red dot sights.
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Originally posted by weasel1962:
Clearly the SAF needs to use simpler words to explain how ACMS works. I tot its already simple enough but I'll make an attempt.
Built-in GPS = auto-knowledge of friendly force location.
Communications pad = push 1 button to send message "need help".
Camera = point and relay image.
Seems goondu proof to me. No need to explain what is the problem, just show. No need to say where one is, computer already show. No need explain whether under-fire, just push button. Don't even need to read map. Digital map show where you are and where you need to go. I don't know about wayang but all those items seem pretty relevant to me.
I remember a time when we didn't even have 732s in a section so how to communicate? Then we had a counter where we had to click to count footsteps so one doesn't get lost. And then map-reading in tall lallang. lol. Clearly someone either isn't in infantry and has never gone thru BMT.
ACMS has absolutely nothing to do with rifle sight. I think 99.999% of SAF still point their weapons in the right direction. If one is blind, the camera will still capture the images.
One may have the best rifle sight in the world but if you're not where you're supposed to be, all the best rifle sights in the world are useless. If you don't know where you are, can't call for help, can't identify the enemy, then all the best rifle sights in the world = useless. I can certainly understand why there is the ACMS.
You are taking this way too far. If this ACMS system removes the need to shoot accurately/at night, maybe you want to issue PDWs or pistols instead. It's not like your fire support assets are always available.
Anyway you didn't address how reflex sights and/or night sights are not useful if we have ACMS.
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"I don't think anyone said that SAF conscripts are "Unable" to use red dot sights."
But...but.. I'm colourblind!! :lol:
Think both of you are a bit on different topics, weasel's on the usefulness of ACMS while you were on usefulness of better sights, hence a bit of crossed wires.
I for one would NEVER avocate replacing small arms with a ACMS set, not would I replace my NVBs for one. These items are supposed to be used in combination, not solo. We're an army, not the Lone Ranger. This applies to our equipment too. TI-NVB-Laser pointer. Spotter-Localiser-Aimer. All have their jobs.
ACMS? When you have more targets than ammo or common sense. :P
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Originally posted by alize:
You are taking this way too far. If this ACMS system removes the need to shoot accurately/at night, maybe you want to issue PDWs or pistols instead. It's not like your fire support assets are always available.
Anyway you didn't address how reflex sights and/or night sights are not useful if we have ACMS.
Didn't say reflex sights and/or night sights are not useful. No one is advocating no small arms. The question which has been repeated is what is the incremental benefit over existing sights.I do think night/reflex sights are recon tools. SAR-21 already has optical sights. The SAR-21A can be equipped with better sights. No doubt.
But that has zero bearing on the effectiveness of the ACMS. ACMS is a big value add. No fire support, keep out of range of an enemy who can shoot you at longer range and I'm not talking about just rifle sights. Common sense.
An M-16 with an ACMS and good fire support is far more valuable than a sharpshooters rifle with no situation awareness. Of course a sharpshooter with an ACMS and good fire support is better than an M-16 with an ACMS and good fire support. But is it worth converting the entire SAF to sharpshooter + night scopes? Maybe not.
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Why not worth?
Soldiers cannot choose not to fight at night or in scenarios requiring quick aiming. If it keeps soldiers out of hospital or the morgue, it's logistically and morally worthwhile. It's not a cool "recon tool", every soldier can benefit from one.
I see it not as a question of worth, but as an obligation.
As to ACMS, it's built around the basic SAR-21 for 5 out of 7 soldiers. I asked an officer involved during my NS when I was fortuitiously posted there for a few days. Seeing how infantry battalions were converted to SAR-21 as recently as 2006, it's easy to see it remaining for a long time to come.
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alize, the "worth" part is not all or nothing, we already have systems in place for what the OP wanted, so if it was not implimented, it's not like we totally lose the capability, we still have it, abet in a lesser form.
And it still begs the question of is the added % capability worth all the money that would be spent on it?
An analogy would be like your boss asking you to work 1hr extra OT everyday, and at the end of the month, he'll pay you $30 extra. Does that mean you can't use an extra $30? No, but OTing for $1/hr might not really be worth it. Same like the sights, we could ALWAYS do with greater accuracy, but is what we're going to pay for it really worth it? (Yay, more taxes... right...), especially when the chances of us using the capabilities to the max is very limited (closed terrain, few 800m shots)?.
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Dear Shotgun,
o Wah... didn't realise the topic was this hot. Sepecat, seriously, ease up with the personal comments.
Seriously as a moderator, please get others to ease
up on the more inflammatory comments rather than mine which
are extremely mild. I have seen very much nastier posts being
made in this Forum without the moderator batting an eyelid.
Or are you afraid of strong arguments ? If not, lets see anyone
shoot down my points with persuasive arguments complete with
hard facts and examples. But so far I have not seen any powerful
& factual arguments against my points. Instead I see
statements made without any substance.
So moderator, take up the gauntlet and shoot me down.
You see I keep an open mind.
Now, the reason why some of us think that you have not gone through NS or BMT
as a combatant is because you lack knowledge on the typical engagement distance
of an infantryman in our neck of the woods (and heck, anywhere else too). If you
did, you would not have suggested shooting at infantry targets at 600m with
5.56mm assault rifles.
Our expectations of a moderator is that he at least read the
posts before making comments which are clearly incorrect.
You blatantly ignore the following statements that
I have already made which clearly show that I have done BMT and
more : -
It is already a very well known fact that most firefights
occur at less than 300 to 400 m. But the lessons
learnt in Iraq and Afghanistan is that
infantrymen will now also need to engage enemy out to 600 m.
The insurgents have resorted to engaging from these distances
using AKs, RPGs etc and ordinary riflemen can do so only if
equipped with magnified scopes. Otherwise the only means for
return fire are the GMPGs.
Top end modern sights need not be of the large mag type. I repeat , even 1X modern sights make riflemen very much more deadly at 0 to 300 m, but even more so at the shorter ranges say 50 m.
These sights come in several flavors. The low mag
ones 1 to 2.5X are excellent for ranges from 0 up to 300 m. Iron
sights are especially at a big disadvantage at short ranges up to
50 m compared to these sights. Even 4X sights are used
effectively in urban combat – look at the BA example with SUSAT
which is a 4X sight. It has been in use for more than 20 years,
notably is Belfast during the war with the IRA.
Clearly I have gone thru BMT and more.
I have fired the M16 and SAR21 with the issued sights.
You & many others have only gone thru BMT & have never
used red dot or similar sights & therefore
cannot appreciate the effectiveness of these sights.
And of course there was that last sentence about you taking the "best weapon available." You know you won't have a choice. If the army gives you a SAR-21, you will shoot nothing but a SAR-21 unless you somehow admit to being involved illegal arms trading in Singapore.
Precisely the point that we are NOT being issued with best weapon available. Hence this debate and hopefully this shortfall will be corrected with the SAR21A which we will be issued with in future.
By the same token are some Forumers then trafficking in the sale
of an illicit aircraft carrier ? You shud then also stop the
daydreaming that is happening with the Forum topic “ A
Singapore aircraft carrier “. This is even more far fetched and
truly belongs in the realm of pure fantasy.
However, having modern optical sights on SAF & police small arms is already a fact , but only in a limited scale. It shud extend to the ordinary rifleman.
Now, no one here is against the use of ACOG or wadever scopes/sights you suggest. The question is whether they are economically feasible as a standard issue for a conscript army thats not actively deployed. If the budget allows, who knows? But, there are other priorities that serve as better force multipliers than infantry optics. Integrated Fire support and close air support for example.
You may not be in touch with the goings on of the Army. Did you not hear that we aspire to be a World Class Army ? So we shud have all the goodies starting with the basic rifleman’s tools.
The only question shud be when it gets issued.
My point also is that this SHUD be a top priority or did’nt you read this ?
NSmen are already actively deployed when they are armed with an SAR21 or M16 with live rounds when guarding the army camps.
The cost of ONE brand new Leo2A6 will probably be sufficient to get 10 battalions’ worth of riflemen equipped with the optics. So is that too expensive ?
They are more effective force multipliers for many reasons, the simplest being raw firepower. They are have greater deterrence value compared to infantry sights. Aggressors think twice when they look SG's army. It is small and composed largely of conscripts, but yet have access to some of the most advanced fighting systems in the world such as a HIMARS, Apaches, JDAMs and what nots. Infantry optics is a small part that is not difficult to rectify, like u said, they are easy to use. Just damn expensive to sign 1206 for.
Totally agreed that it is a huge deterrent with all the expensive hi tech hardware we have.
But have you not heard that you are as strong as the weakest link ??
So you think that the potential enemy is stupid ? They will choose to fight on their own terms wherever and whenever possible. So tt does not necessarily need to be a full scale full blown war to fight. Sorry , but it can be death with ten thousand paper cuts. Choose the weakest link ! Do not fight the SAF the way SAF wants to fight, then what happens ? The Vietcong & the insurgents in current conflicts did & are doing the the same with the Western powers using AK47s, IEDs, mortars , RPGs , Dragunovs etc
How does one sign a 1206 for a Spike thermal sight for example ? Or maybe you want to try to kill an MBT with a satchel charge. It is clearly cheaper. And you don’t have to worry about signing the 1206.
Oh, btw, don't need to ask me what unit. Honestly I also don't know and prefer if they don't tell me.
But I know !
You have gone thru BMT and know how to handle a rifle right ? When you get deployed, you get to guard an army camp or installation.
Better get cracking on your shooting skills because the enemy usually sends their elite commando forces to take on an installation. They will have NVGs and scoped small arms. Well not to worry right ? Just get the HIMARS , Apaches and JDAMS – good luck as these are probably the hardware that you will be guarding !
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Oh, btw, don't need to ask me what unit. Honestly I also don't know and prefer if they don't tell me. "
Congratulations on the end of the long road.
Hey Underpaid,
The long road has just started ! You have not furnished any substantial points to argue your case.
You are clearly not one cut out for the long drawn out slogging fight the rifleman is used to. Come on, please do better than this . I am waiting.
No big surprise for one used to playing with video screens and littlel mice
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Dear Underpaid,
No more hiding behind someone with a 12 gauge shotgun unless you want a shotgun wedding. Be on the side armed with the 5.56 or 7.62 or .338 , 50 cal or 40 mm weapon - especially the ones with the optical sights
On the other hand I will be very wary if the shotgun was equipped with a red dot sight - I wud not want to be blasted with buckshot at 30 m - note :- I did not say 300 m.
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Originally posted by Underpaid:
alize, the "worth" part is not all or nothing, we already have systems in place for what the OP wanted, so if it was not implimented, it's not like we totally lose the capability, we still have it, abet in a lesser form.
And it still begs the question of is the added % capability worth all the money that would be spent on it?
An analogy would be like your boss asking you to work 1hr extra OT everyday, and at the end of the month, he'll pay you $30 extra. Does that mean you can't use an extra $30? No, but OTing for $1/hr might not really be worth it. Same like the sights, we could ALWAYS do with greater accuracy, but is what we're going to pay for it really worth it? (Yay, more taxes... right...), especially when the chances of us using the capabilities to the max is very limited (closed terrain, few 800m shots)?.
Right analogy.
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Sepa, just zip it asshole. And the long road comment wasn't to you so keep off it.
If you have no idea what Shotgun means, you obviously do NOT know enough of how NS works.
If you do, I challenge you to explain what he means when he says he doesn't know his unit and does not want to.
You have yet to provide ANY evidence you were in NS in any form other than "Mr Classified" cliche. You say you are an NSman? Prove it.
And I'm on the side with the HIMAR and F-16 strikes. Literally. They taught little ol' Sepa kitty how to call in an airstrike yet? Or do they still not trust you with sharp objects?
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Ha ha ha !!!!!!!!
Looks like the Underpaid junevile just threw a tantrum ! Ar'nt you pissed by your inability to counter my points ! Come on , show me something to refute my case. Hey remember to keep focused on the topic. You can't right ???
Is Shotgun coming to your rescue ?
Moderators, please keep your Forumers in check especially those morons who have to resort to foul language. If not, other Forumers may have to resort to retaliation in kind & more.
Underpaid, lets see your arguments.
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Underpaid, I know much more about Himars , F16s and the like besides small arms and optics.
Start a thread and lets see who comes out on top. But do keep it factual - no farting and hot air please. After all we are NS Singaporeans.
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Dear Alize,
Paradoxical that some people are saying the SAF is a conscript army unable to fully use the potential of high-end sights, yet they expect soldiers call in fires with the ACMS.
How right you are ! Our conscripts can man & maintain extremely sophisticated equipment. Our advantage is that most NS men are well educated and technologically savvy.
There isn't a forced choice between the two. Firstly, SAF can afford both. Secondly the ACMS defeats its purpose as a system if it doesn't include a decent sight for infantrymen to help themselves.
I agree. SAF spent $ 100 million on AMCS & can well afford to purchase more than decent sights. In fact, if you look at all the current future soldier programs, the AMCS type systems are only in place only AFTER the small arms are installed with the optics I mentioned. These came first , then the AMCS systems. I think SAF got it backwards.
The key thrust of ACMS is target designation for fellow soldiers right? Yet I must designate a target for my buddy beside me with a visible red laser? Strange priorities indeed.
I also really doubt that one shud designate anything with a VISIBLE laser especially at night. Laser designation by soldiers are best done with IR lasers and NVGs. Visible laser applications exist in the battlefield but are the rarity rather than the norm.
SAF-in-my-backpack my ass. I'd like to be able to help myself and my section mates in a pinch.
If you have been in the Army you will know that nothing works 100 % of the time. Even the most rugged and simplest of equipment fail quickly. I guess you can probably get only 50 % availability out of these types of AMCS systems at best not counting the time when you run out of battery power. Well, when they work , it is fantastic. The more sophisticated a system, the higher its unavailability. Its worse when these systems are with ground troops where environmental conditions are extremely severe. But I think AMCS systems are great only for some situations only. How do you use AMCS in jungle fighting ??
Well and good if the SAR21A solves the sight problem (and all the other SAR21 problems). But ACMS as currently publicised, I'll go so far as to call it a classic case of wayang with cool gadgets for an uninitiated public. Act Cool and help me Make Superscale.
I too am extremely sceptical of the utility of AMCS. A much simpler system will probably be much more effective & cheaper. I think it is money NOT well spent. Priorities are not right. Get the basic small arms sights up to standard first.
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Didn't say reflex sights and/or night sights are not useful. No one is advocating no small arms. The question which has been repeated is what is the incremental benefit over existing sights.
It has also been repeated over and over that they offer a SIGNIFICANT step change in capability. I back this up with the fact that the US Army alone uses more than 500,000 of these sights. Many other modern armies now have these sights as standard. Hey these sights are not exactly new. They have been around for more than 30 years and the SAF has not caught up !!!
I do think night/reflex sights are recon tools. SAR-21 already has optical sights. The SAR-21A can be equipped with better sights. No doubt.
No one said that these sights are meant for recon. Most like the Aimpoints or EO Tech sights are 1X mag. The 4 to 6X ones will help you to identify targets at longer ranges. They are primarily weapons sights.
But that has zero bearing on the effectiveness of the ACMS. ACMS is a big value add. No fire support, keep out of range of an enemy who can shoot you at longer range and I'm not talking about just rifle sights. Common sense.
Common sense is to get modern sights on the small arms first , then move to AMCS. Like I said , the SAF got it backwards.
An M-16 with an ACMS and good fire support is far more valuable than a sharpshooters rifle with no situation awareness. Of course a sharpshooter with an ACMS and good fire support is better than an M-16 with an ACMS and good fire support. But is it worth converting the entire SAF to sharpshooter + night scopes? Maybe not.
Situational awareness for the rifleman is Mk1 eyeball and good ears. There are severe limitations to UAVs and the like. All can be countered.
I repeat again, I am all for killing the enemy at long distance. But I am talking about the infantryman. After the enemy MBTs, arty units and battalion HQs are wiped out by F15SGs, HIMARS etc , the rifleman- and that you - you need to take and defend the ground. There will still be enemy soldiers to take out in the jungles , trenches, bunkers, buildings etc. This is the realm of the infantryman. So better be equipped with the best possible equipment. Even in the most modern battlefield, there will be section , platoon and also brutal hand to hand combat.
The lessons of history all bear this out.
In WW2 the allies for a time thought that they cud win the war by strategic bombing only. This is totally incorrect. In the end you msut take the ground and only the infantry can do that .Only then will you have victory.
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For sceptics who think that 5.56 mm M16 type rifles cannot be used out to 600 m, here is a link to help change your mind. Using 5.56 weapons for these types of ranges is not a rarity as you might think. However, I personally wud advocate a 7.62 mm for this type of range. But then again a 5.56 is much easier to shoot.
http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/News/SDM.pdf
As always, back your rebuttals with solid facts and arguments. I for one will try as much as possible to do so. Some others are less inclined to do so and shud not be believed.
Remember that our SAF’s BMT is a very limited experience as it is designed for conscripts by an Army with neither battle experience nor military history or tradition. It is meant more of an intro to weapons handling which is also just part of the wider curricula. The SAF can only learn from those who have had to learn the hard way from real and hard fought battles. We do not wish to be in this type of situation in the first place if we can help it. But we need not start from scratch – no need to reinvent the wheel.
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SAR-21 was named as one of the Top five guns for the next century in Popular Mechanics - in 2008 .
They have taken consideration in the sights, laser - the whole package and find it compare to the market - good enough.
If they find it good enough to name it top five guns for the next century - think that is clearly enough - I don't think anyone can prove themselves more authorised then Popular Mechanics - if so please show us what books or article you published ?
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Came in at number 3 some more behind the SCAR-light and XM-25.
Popular Mechanics is not a gun mag. There are other more credible gun mags eg rifles & carbine, etc who have given it top marks.
To paraphrase what someone once posted, the best rifle in the hands of an idiot will still be useless* (*replaced as the word used was a lot coarser). The worst rifle in the hands of an expert may still be effective. It is reflective from the people's thoughts on the rifle.
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These rankings mean nothing even within their comparison group.
I once saw a "10 top PDWs" ranking comparing the G36K, HK416 and an unfolding-stock-and-frame built around a Glock pistol, clearly not an apples to apples comparison.
There will always be a need for reflex sights and networked soldiers in different situations. But I think there will be little need for ill-balanced weapons and red laser pointers for some time. We are stuck with it, however, since a rifle is not a war winning thing. It only makes a difference to the guy holding it. When you get your ACMS, best you click on every single structure you see before it fails. Then you don't have to duck around any walls.
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Is Sepecat an idiot? Did he just challenge a moderator on netiquette and a FSO on arty? Talk about stupid.
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"Underpaid, I know much more about Himars , F16s and the like besides small arms and optics.
Start a thread and lets see who comes out on top. But do keep it factual - no farting and hot air please. After all we are NS Singaporeans."
I have my suspicions on that. You have avoided every question NS based with an evasion. Answer my question on which unit or explain what Shotgun meant. Then I MAY allow that you are at least an NS.. person. I'm not willing to concede that you are a man yet. Boy.
Fine, you want to tango, here goes:
1) What are the 2 possible fire commands you can give to an arty battery?
2) Why is it that aircraft must fly to an Initial Point (IP) then a Release Point (RP) before being released to engage a target?
3) Which GPS satellite constellation does Singapore's HIMAR launchers use?
And remember, my RSTA unit in our most LOBO is head and shoulders more on than you will ever be in your pathatic life, SEPACAT. In short:
FUCK YOU, LITTLE BOY! oIo
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http://www.usaac.army.mil/amu/News/SDM.pdf
Blackhill ammo you idiot. And bipod. Does that in ANY way sound like an assault rifle? It's a specialised DMR shooting ER ammo, NOT NATO standard.
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" Ar'nt you pissed by your inability to counter my points ! Come on , show me something to refute my case"
I already countered a long time ago on 4 points. Not my fault you can't read.
You fail
1) Strategically/logistically
2) Not considering the type of NS personnel
3) Lack of understanding of operating terrain
and
4) Equipment intergration.
Go read back, can't be bothered to retype for an idiot.
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And finally, Moderators, recommend ban for SEPECAT for repeated personal attacks in posts and spamming the site. His insults to other moderators have nothing to do with me, ín that, he's your problem to deal with. My accusation is the personal attacks directed at me for disagreeing with him.