Is F15 the right choice
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Well, you can't possibly go to Acer, order one of their laptops and say that you'd like the Dell LCD right?
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LM with the lexington institute strikes back on the cost... http://www.lexingtoninstitute.org/the-f-35-will-cost-about-what-an-f-16-costs?a=1&c=1129 Based on what the prime contractor has actually charged the government to date for three successive lots of fighters, the unit recurring flyaway cost for the most common version of the F-35 will be about $60 million in today's dollars. That's roughly what the latest variants of the F-16 and F/A-18 fighters cost, and less than half what an F-22 costs. The Pentagon estimates the F-35 will cost some higher amount, but its estimates have consistently been well above what the contractor actually charged. In fact, in the current negotiations for the fourth production lot, Lockheed Martin is proposing a price far below Pentagon estimates, and government negotiators in turn are trying to get a price below what Lockheed Martin is proposing.
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I guess thats the downside of the Democrat Presidencies; the cost aversion mentality towards defense spendings.
Can't imagine how they intend to handle a hot war where the majority of their tactical fighters have been outclassed by Russian Sukhois and Eurocanards. The F-22s and F-35s are much needed platforms to ensure air dominance.
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they won't be fighting the Russians directly mah..............and Europe is controlled by the same people that already control US................other nations can't touch US anyway...........
to destroy Russia, economic warfare will be enough.................very easy to crush the rouble...........crash oil and gas prices...................all these will be enough to bring Russia to her knees..............
notice ever since oil prices fell off from USD147, Venezuela, Russia and Iran has become much much less vocal towards US..................
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F-15 Silent Eagle Media Briefing by Boeing
It said F 15 SG is better than F 15 K.
http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/the-dewline/2009/03/f-15-silent-eagle-media-briefi.html
2. JSF can only carry 4 internal bombs! The price of stealth, so called, is very high.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/F-35_Lightning_II
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small payload so US will order more planes and company make more money mah...............
eh, so fast Lightning 2 already ah................wait untill they come up with Special Edition then buy lah..............or Signature Series...........LOL
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
I guess thats the downside of the Democrat Presidencies; the cost aversion mentality towards defense spendings.
Can't imagine how they intend to handle a hot war where the majority of their tactical fighters have been outclassed by Russian Sukhois and Eurocanards. The F-22s and F-35s are much needed platforms to ensure air dominance.
Firstly, the fighters aren't outclassed, more like the suks and eurocanards have caught up. And despite the stealth PAK-FA, it won't be entering inventories anytime soon.Secondly, with thousands of 3rd/4th gen fighters, its still an advantage in terms of numbers (so long as the maintenance issues are settled) when everyone else has hundreds.
As to downsides to democrat presidencies, there is a huge difference between fiscal prudence and spending $5000 on a toilet seat. The qn of affordability tends to appear in democratic presidencies. One might make an argument that republican presidencies are more destructive to future military budgets (ie spending through borrowings is just deferring payments to later which kills future spending).
With 187 F-22s and 2,443 F-35s not counting allies, that's still going to be more than everyone else.
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E F-15SE is designed 2 be stealth vs aircraft not ground-based radars or IR seasors given e distance with other nations e F-15SE will most likely be within their ground-based radar n can aircraft fitted with IRST detects them since they r not stealth in e IR region?
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The F15SG is the most advanced F15 yet, even though its 40 years old. Somethings, when you buy things....you need to see what comes with it. We all know, the F15 may not match up with the new Eurofighter in Stealth, in weapons systems and performance, but US alliance is worth much more than what plane you fly.
If you fly a Eurofighter, you need to buy engine parts from one country, subjected to approval from another, get French strikes, and pay high prices for German unions, and wing parts from Toulouse, Electronics from Finland....the plane will be a nightmare to keep let alone fly...and it will have issues with the weapons systems.....if you are thinking of an integrated approach to defense, you need something that will work with your AWACs, your weaponry on the F16s must work also on the new plane and common parts suppliers.....that is called prudence.
Otherwise, you end up with a rojak air force with 30 different suppliers for the same parts and no standard guy to supply them....in short, your planes are good for the museum 3 years on....like some people's air force.....
This is one thing good about not having corruption in the system.
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I think it is worse when the RSAF has almost all its air fighting capabilities in one basket from the USA.
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It is nevertheless a big basket. F-15s and F-16s represent a good mix but there are significant benefits from joint ops, eg with RAF, RAAF, USAF.
Access to US provide USAF pilots, munitions, reserve aircraft when needed. Israel 1973 provides an example where F-4s, munitions were sent via cargo planes to Israel to top up depleting inventories. This may also have included USAF pilots.
Soviets did that in North Korea as well where russki pilots flew in NK planes but that won't come with other European purchases.
I'd like to understand how the F-15 doesn't match up to Eurofighter? It has better TW, sensors, carries more and better munitions and in the latest variant (which can be retrofit to the SG), comes with stealth. Also, delivery schedules met rsaf requirements.
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She is an F-15 wapak !!
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It is nevertheless a big basket. F-15s and F-16s represent a good mix but there are significant benefits from joint ops, eg with RAF, RAAF, USAF. Weasal
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When you drop that one big basket you loose everything in it - that means the entire RSAF warfighting capability
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Can a big basket of differing a/c types be similarly dropped? <- Yes. So what's the advantage of diversification when the cost is evident? If a war occurs, one can have rsaf pilots in usaf a/c or usaf pilots in rsaf a/c. But if eurofighter/migs was procured, will that happen? There are advantages to big basket eg lower cost of training, better training, more access to parts, better serviceability etc. Are migs/eurofighters better? I don't think so. Bottom line: Its a risk that rsaf/dsta/mindef has decided is worth taking. I agree.
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The big basket drops when Uncle Sam no longer supports you.
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And what makes one think the Russkis or the Europeans won't drop the basket? In fact, they'd probably do it faster when it suits them. The french did it to the israelis.
The only way one can avoid that is to have self sufficiency. But can SG build its own fighters?
In reality....
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Did I say anyone else will not drop the basket ?
Reality is that ANYONE can drop the basket. In RSAF's case , we have ALL our eggs in one basket.
Well, IF RSAF had Russian or European alternatives and they dropped their baskets, we will still have the US basket right ? RSAF really needs to go to market & get another basket of alternatives.
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
Did I say anyone else will not drop the basket ?
Reality is that ANYONE can drop the basket. In RSAF's case , we have ALL our eggs in one basket.
Well, IF RSAF had Russian or European alternatives and they dropped their baskets, we will still have the US basket right ? RSAF really needs to go to market & get another basket of alternatives.
Are you going against Uncle sam anytime soon? Our economy still largerly depend on Uncle Sam.
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Are you ?
I see that not only the RSAF has all their eggs in one basket
Better start hedging your bets on the economies of BRIC , Japan and other nations.
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
Did I say anyone else will not drop the basket ?
Reality is that ANYONE can drop the basket. In RSAF's case , we have ALL our eggs in one basket.
Well, IF RSAF had Russian or European alternatives and they dropped their baskets, we will still have the US basket right ? RSAF really needs to go to market & get another basket of alternatives.
Its too simplistic. If rsaf had russki or european alternatives, what makes you think your US basket is still there?Getting another alternatives involves cost, integration, training, structures, and a whole other gamut. Easy to say just buy. In fact, we can probably and just as easily get more fighters from economies of scale by buying from the same supplier. This esp when the planes/tech of alternatives may not even be as effective.
Worse, by buying alternatives, one is opened to a lot more consideration ie have to satisfy/three leg more parties. Here, you only need to do it for one.
Its not really all eggs in one basket either. Things like missiles can be diversified eg Derby/Mica or Python/Asraam instead of Amraams/sidewinders. Iran kept their F-4s/F-14s flying. rsaf already has good exposures with the A-4.
But most importantly, the reality is that there isn't going to be any "dropping" from the US anytime in the next few decades. If anything, the relationship is getting closer and both sides want it to be that way.
If things do turn sour, diversification can occur eg indonesia. Aircraft procurement is not a once off. However, one leverages on advantages where one can.
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You mean you cannot have Russian & European fighter alternatives when you have US aircraft ?
The RMAF has F18s, F5s, MIG29s and SU30s.
The Pakistani AF has F16s, Mirage III, Mirage V, F7s , A5s
Egyptian AF has F4s, F16s, Mirage 2000s, J7s, MIG21s
Indian AF has MIG29, SU30, Jaguar, Hawk, Mirage 2000 & are considering F18s, Typhoons etc
The list goes on....................
Your are insulting the RSAF. Singapore, DSTA, SAF & especially the RSAF are extremely well known globally to be first class procurement agencies. They do not " sar kar " anyone. Please apologise immediately to the RSAF.
The US administration changes every 4 years & with each change policies change.
Just because we & others may seem close to the USA now does not guarantee a cozy relationship tomorrow. You forget there was a time when RSAF cud not purchase top of line fighters from the US - we were then allowed to purchase F16-79s or F20s rather than the F16A. Also, the US refused release of source codes when we wanted to purchase air to air radars for our F5s. We went to the Italians instead.
Waiting for someone to drop us is a poor strategy. When it happens it be too late. A fighter squadron takes many years to be operational.
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lol. Again another simplistic comparison. The RMAF has done so well that they will be phasing out their Mig-29s faster than their F-5s. By your standard, we should get rid of our engines, malaysian style and buy short life fighters? The malaysians spend half our budget to have an airfleet less than half our current size.
Pakistan is so fantastic that they went to buy F-16s right after they got embargoed for it.
Didn't Egypt finally switch to US fighters after Russkis failed in THREE wars?
As to the Indian fleet... lol.
Why not mention South Korea, Australia, Israel, Japan.....
You are indeed a genius, must be all that raam you're getting....
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Originally posted by weasel1962:
lol. Again another simplistic comparison. The RMAF has done so well that they will be phasing out their Mig-29s faster than their F-5s. By your standard, we should get rid of our engines, malaysian style and buy short life fighters? The malaysians spend half our budget to have an airfleet less than half our current size.
Pakistan is so fantastic that they went to buy F-16s right after they got embargoed for it.
Didn't Egypt finally switch to US fighters after Russkis failed in THREE wars?
As to the Indian fleet... lol.
Why not mention South Korea, Australia, Israel, Japan.....
You are indeed a genius, must be all that raam you're getting....
When you put things this way, its hard to see otherwise. =D
Sadly, when people think about Russian fighter technology, they seem to think they are analogous to the AK-47. Crude but reliable.
It may be improving but its still far from the truth. Crude but unreliable.
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
The big basket drops when Uncle Sam no longer supports you.
when uncle sam no longer supports you, no basket will save you either.
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Originally posted by Sepecat:
Did I say anyone else will not drop the basket ?
Reality is that ANYONE can drop the basket. In RSAF's case , we have ALL our eggs in one basket.
Well, IF RSAF had Russian or European alternatives and they dropped their baskets, we will still have the US basket right ? RSAF really needs to go to market & get another basket of alternatives.
for every additional basket of alternatives, there will be additional strings attached, not to mention the cost and potential conflicts between different baskets.
if holding the biggest basket cant save your butt, holding additional basket of alternatives wont either.