Is F15 the right choice
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Originally posted by As romanista2001:
S'pore will buy American no matter what...................France has no political/economic clout while we're more dependent on US politically/economically than the Eurozone...........
we would buy the F15 even if the Rafale with 1 wing less can still outperform the F15
Economics wise, EU n US are big contributors to Singapore. Politically you can say US has a larger stake in Asia Pacific than the EU. Getting F-15s can be perceived as continuation of SG-US ties. And it is too much of a sweeping statement to conclude that France has no clout at all. In fact its has much better political standing on its own than the UK. Please put aside longstanding stereotypes of France aside and look forward. -
Originally posted by As romanista2001:
so will S'pore ever buy Russian weapons ?..................LOL
The Igla SAM system is Russian... -
Originally posted by Atobe:
Am I here to play down the achievements of SG - or am I simply puncturing your jingoistic efforts to blow hot air up your arse ?Does SG need the kind of jingoistic attempts to embarrass ourselves, or has the SAF not maintained a quiet low profile, only to raise its head at every necessary moment as a soft reminder ?
Is a smart integrator equal a reflection of efficiency - when all it require is for us to absorb all the lessons learnt from others, so as to shorten our own learning curve ?
While others have paid for their lessons in blood - we simply pick up the pieces and prepare ourselves for the worst without losing a drop of blood.
Does that qualify your kind of jingoistic crap to demean the capabilities of other more mature military organisations whom we take lessons from ?
All the bullshit you published are the "cut and paste" from publicity materials that ST has put up to polish their image and used as marketing tools.
Were you involved in the years of behind the scene ST 'private investments' in all the different programs at the experimental stage - before these were put into a package for the development of a specific program ?
The Bionix was a result of the many years of experiment working with Timoney in the upgrading of the AMX SM-1 - which led to the next program to upgrade the M-113, and continuing with the ongoing program to merge some of the various features of the AMX-10 into a vehicle that suits our purpose.
How close were you involved in these early experimental stages that finally got the Bionix program started as a clear mission to ST ?
Concerning the 1x telescopic sight integrated to the SAR-21 - it has received alot of cynical remarks about its real effectiveness - what are you bragging about ?
It is better for you to read up again about the air-burst ammunition before you go about bragging about ST's air burst weapon.
Try not to put the cart before the horse.
This is not a product that was developed by ST - and was already around as early as in the mid-1960s - with more sophisticated versions appearing in the 1990s and developed by Oerlikons as well as Bofors.
Did you ‘read your own thread dated 20 Nov 08 11.45AM’ ?
You did print then -
Almost two years later, you continue to blow hot air up your arse.
Is your mind bankrupt and need any boost of false pride to generate new threads ?
ok ok.I buy your story for the time being. SG has two options.
No. 1 ---SG style, copy and paste and field the platforms, like wat u say,
shorten the learning curve.
No. 2 is follow US style--design and scrap defense projects.
Current USA soldiers in 2010 still using the platforms similiar to their
granddads, despite after some so called upgradings!
Classicial examples are many--
1. XM 29 scrapped.--not totally gavamna faults.
US army can approach ST Kinetics abt
SAR 21 40mm laser-rangefinder Low Velocity
AirBursting self-destruct Grenade Launcher
http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/321267
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
2.Proposed USA M109A6 Paladin SPH (few decades old, despite many upgrades)
replacements-----
Crusader XM2001 Self-Propelled Howitzer and
Non-Line-of-Sight Cannon (NLOS-C)--wat a facy name under FCS
were scarapped after millions $$ and many years was wasted.
SG , i think, is willing to share with Yankees somethings about SG's
Primus 155mm 39 Calibre Self Propelled Howitzer.
Anyway, the chassis of Primus comes fr USA!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
3.Proposed M 19 GL replacement--
M307 Airbursting Weapon System / Advanced Crew Served Weapon
was scrapped ! I am not talking about air burst. USA just cannot
make one new GL with reduced weight!!
SG has been using weight reduced GL for years , come with air burst of course!!
Anyway, not many countries can make ABS grenades . ST Kinetics
is one of major exporters of machine guns grenades. Daily output
is 3000,yes three thousands.
40mm Air Bursting Munition System
Light Weight Automatic Grenade Launcher
....oh I think enough lah.
Can i remind u that SG alreday roll out all the above new platforms for
21 st century in the past 15 years!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$
design and scrap defense projects is a sin, a big sin!
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One pilot vs 2 pilots in JSF
This paper by a USA Major can give u some ideas.
JSF: The Need for a Two-Seat Variant
EWS Contemporary Issue Paper
Submitted by Captain W. Suarez
To
Major C.B. Lynn, CG 15
19 February 2008.1 JSF: The Need for a Two-Seat Variant EWS Contemporary Issue ...
-page 9
Israel has expressed the desire to purchase a two-seat JSF.
Aviation Week
& Space Technology interviewed a senior Israeli Air Force
official stating:
Nonetheless, he worries that the JSF will start showing its
limitations within five years. Among the drawbacks will be
its one-person crew. As a result, “we can’t operate the F-
35 by itself,” the retired general says. “We really need
two-seaters, with one person concentrating on flying and
someone else focused on the strike mission. One man can’t
take advantage of all the options,” particularly since JSF
10
capabilities will include jamming, information warfare and
network attack.15@@@@@@@@@@@@2
If JSF EW is strong, then no need to be so stealth
EW is always a prelude of air strike. If EW , come JSF or other
planes are strong enough, then JSF need not to be so stealth .
Therefore, JSF can carry more external weapons!
USA planes need very stealth, but SG's planes need not
US planes always need deep penetration for air strike.
Without EW from other planes, JSF need to be very stealth.
SG planes dunt need deep penetrations.
Therefore, EW fr F5 or Gulfstream etc can help to cover RSAF's
F 15 SG. Therefore, SG dunt need planes so stealrg lah.
nn
jmjj
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
ok ok.I buy your story for the time being. SG has two options.
No. 1 ---SG style, copy and paste and field the platforms, like wat u say,
shorten the learning curve.
No. 2 is follow US style--design and scrap defense projects.
Current USA soldiers in 2010 still using the platforms similiar to their
granddads, despite after some so called upgradings!
Classicial examples are many--
1. XM 29 scrapped.--not totally gavamna faults.
US army can approach ST Kinetics abt
SAR 21 40mm laser-rangefinder Low Velocity
AirBursting self-destruct Grenade Launcher
http://sgforums.com/forums/1164/topics/321267
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
2.Proposed USA M109A6 Paladin SPH (few decades old, despite many upgrades)
replacements-----
Crusader XM2001 Self-Propelled Howitzer and
Non-Line-of-Sight Cannon (NLOS-C)--wat a facy name under FCS
were scarapped after millions $$ and many years was wasted.
SG , i think, is willing to share with Yankees somethings about SG's
Primus 155mm 39 Calibre Self Propelled Howitzer.
Anyway, the chassis of Primus comes fr USA!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
3.Proposed M 19 GL replacement--
M307 Airbursting Weapon System / Advanced Crew Served Weapon
was scrapped ! I am not talking about air burst. USA just cannot
make one new GL with reduced weight!!
SG has been using weight reduced GL for years , come with air burst of course!!
Anyway, not many countries can make ABS grenades . ST Kinetics
is one of major exporters of machine guns grenades. Daily output
is 3000,yes three thousands.
40mm Air Bursting Munition System
Light Weight Automatic Grenade Launcher
....oh I think enough lah.
Can i remind u that SG alreday roll out all the above new platforms for
21 st century in the past 15 years!!
$$$$$$$$$$$$
design and scrap defense projects is a sin, a big sin!
-
any particular reason you need to bring in the rest of the arsenal when this is a F-15SG thread?
this is not one of those card game....?
-
rem,ebers top trump game:)those cards with pictures of ships and lil data at bottom.....
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
any particular reason you need to bring in the rest of the arsenal when this is a F-15SG thread?
this is not one of those card game....?
I dunt like empty words. Therefore, these live examples show SG copy,
intergrate style really work. The SG stuff may not be perfect to some SAF.
But it is most likely better than granddad's era stuff..., despite
upgradings.
On a side note, spent time to read the full Mckinsey report
then u will know more.
Report: U.S. Last in Combat Gear Output Per Spent Dollar - Defense ...
Australia worst in defence spend | The Australian
PS--dunt tell me The Australian is anti--Oz, like my poor labelling.
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Shall we indulge with the idiocy of a noisy pussy ?
Originally posted by lionnoisy:One pilot vs 2 pilots in JSF
This paper by a USA Major can give u some ideas.
JSF: The Need for a Two-Seat Variant
EWS Contemporary Issue Paper
Submitted by Captain W. Suarez
To
Major C.B. Lynn, CG 15
19 February 2008.Why does a noisy pussy even attempt to read anything when its interests is to glorify all things Singaporean ?
It should be spending time to read more of the materials printed by the PAP, MINDEF and the SAF - besides the glossy prints from Singapore Technologies.
1 JSF: The Need for a Two-Seat Variant EWS Contemporary Issue ...
-page 9
@@@@@@@@@@@@2
If it satisfy the noisy pussy for all things Singaporeans - the two seat variant for a JSF is for the need of increasing jobs to help reduce the long lines of jobless in countries that have signed on to the JSF program.
It also help Singapore to overcome the risk adverse mentality - so that decisions and risk burden are shared equally - afterall two heads are better than one.
If JSF EW is strong, then no need to be so stealth
EW is always a prelude of air strike. If EW , come JSF or other
planes are strong enough, then JSF need not to be so stealth .
Therefore, JSF can carry more external weapons!
USA planes need very stealth, but SG's planes need not
US planes always need deep penetration for air strike.
Without EW from other planes, JSF need to be very stealth.
SG planes dunt need deep penetrations.
Therefore, EW fr F5 or Gulfstream etc can help to cover RSAF's
F 15 SG. Therefore, SG dunt need planes so stealrg lah.
nn
jmjj
Why should SG planes need to be stealthy when it is the intention of SG to be known as a poisonous prawn not to be so easily swallowed by any big fish ?
In any case, the PAP has always prided itself for its "supposed transparency" even when everyone knows that it is not - surely, the noisy pussy will not fault the USA for their need to be openly "stealthy" even in developing a JSF ?
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SG dunt need a very stealth figter/striker.
As I say before, SG plane dunt need deep penetration.
Therefore, other RSAF planes can help in EW and comprise air defense sys.
Main purpose of very Stealth plane is to comprise AD sys.
For SG, there are many other ways to do so--
SOF, spy,
UAV with attack power(since it is classified. No details here. ha ha),
Singapore Requests HIMARS Rocket Artillery with precision strike etc
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
It is said SG and Israel each paid US $ 50 million as a observer in JSF
Programme. This worth every single penny, to avoid spending big
bucks in this questioable plane!!
I read that some US Senates etc want to kill this JSF programme
by a Act.
Shall we start a thread to focus on JSF? I have many stuff to say
lah....
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cyberpioneer - Weapon - Battle-proven bird of prey – the F-15 ...
u can take this as saleman's talk.
In addition, the F-15 has a triple-redundant hydraulic system and a redundant electrical generation system that prevents a single failure from ending a mission. Fuel is dispersed throughout the aircraft wings and is protected with self-sealing fuel lines.
This is coupled with a foam fire suppression system, which reduces the vulnerability of the aircraft. Ground crew have found the aircraft easy to maintain. During the first Gulf War in 1991, the F-15E maintained an impressive 95.5% average mission capable rate, the highest for any fighter during the conflict.hh
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
search Google--
JSF + June 2009+ Programmes and Issues for Congress
page 18
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Program: Background and ...
R O'Rourke - 2009
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Program:
Background and Issues for Congress
Ronald O'Rourke
Specialist in Naval Affairs
September 25, 2009( I find three reports bearing same report name dated
June, Sept and Dec 2009.)
JSF---a big worry--
With only around 100 of a planned 5,000 development sorties expected to be accumulated by year’s(2009) end, flight-testing remains the biggest cost and schedule challenge. “It’s still difficult to estimate,” Heinz @@says.
@@JSF Program Executive Officer Brig. Gen. David Heinz
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA511275&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
Therefore, IOC for various JSF platform from 2014 to 2016!!
,,,,n,nnn
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Originally posted by lionnoisy:
SG dunt need a very stealth figter/striker.
As I say before, SG plane dunt need deep penetration.
Therefore, other RSAF planes can help in EW and comprise air defense sys.
Main purpose of very Stealth plane is to comprise AD sys.
For SG, there are many other ways to do so--
SOF, spy,
UAV with attack power(since it is classified. No details here. ha ha),
Singapore Requests HIMARS Rocket Artillery with precision strike etc
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
It is said SG and Israel each paid US $ 50 million as a observer in JSF
Programme. This worth every single penny, to avoid spending big
bucks in this questioable plane!!
I read that some US Senates etc want to kill this JSF programme
by a Act.
Shall we start a thread to focus on JSF? I have many stuff to say
lah....
Were you around when the decision was made to move from the Hawker Hunters and get the F-5Es and the Skyhawks ?
If you were there then - we would probably hear the noisy pussy asking the same questions - why bother to go for the F-5Es and the Skyhawks - when the Hunters are good enough.
Why did we bother to move on to the F-16s ?
Why move from the F-16 A/B to the C/D ?
Are you still using the new padding design with wings, or are you still using the old tampons for your pussy ?
The noisy pussy has alot to say about many things - have you made any sense in any of your threads ?
A new thread about F-35 JSF ?
Have you not said enough with your threads about F-35 JSF made in 2009 ?
‘Oz experts’ long articles say JSF not so stealth’ dd 14 Jan ‘09 – 9.31AM
‘JSF – a reality or mirage ?’ dd 02 Jul ’09 – 04.56PM
Originally posted by lionnoisy:cyberpioneer - Weapon - Battle-proven bird of prey – the F-15 ...
u can take this as saleman's talk.
hh
@@@@@@@@@@@@@@@
search Google--
JSF + June 2009+ Programmes and Issues for Congress
page 18
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Program: Background and ...
R O'Rourke - 2009
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) Program:
Background and Issues for Congress
Ronald O'Rourke
Specialist in Naval Affairs
September 25, 2009( I find three reports bearing same report name dated
June, Sept and Dec 2009.)
JSF---a big worry--
@@JSF Program Executive Officer Brig. Gen. David Heinz
http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?AD=ADA511275&Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf
Therefore, IOC for various JSF platform from 2014 to 2016!!
,,,,n,nnn
It seems that the noisy pussy cannot differentiate between 'salesman talk' and 'pure propaganda' ?
The noisy pussy should learn to keep its padding in its proper place or it will learn to regret the present statements made against the F-35 JSF at this stage.
By the time when Singapore acquire the F-35 in about another 10 to 20 years time, the pussy will regret all the noise made today.
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Quote: Most Israeli defense officials agree that the best existing alternative to the JSF would be Boeing’s new F-15 Silent Eagle, which combines traditional F-15 capabilities with a reduced radar cross section and internal weapons bay. However, no formal proposal has been made.
“From the little we know, the . . . F-15SE could reach $100 million per aircraft, not so different from the F-35,” says the IAF source. “Naturally, we will consider it if there will be a major delay in the F-35, but haven’t arrived at that point yet.”
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search Gioogle--F 15 + refuel
No refuel pipe for F 15!
top--
bottom--
aviationnews.eu
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who cares if F15 is stealth,deadly or a white elephant!!!if i were a handsome tall fighter pilot with plenty of tummy muscles,i would rather come outa the cockpit of something that resembles an F-14 tom cat other than a F-16,a4 skyhawk or a mig29!!why???because of the top gun movie!!!its a cool aircraft with a cool movie sound track etc behind it!:)
as technology advances....all fighter aircraft with pilots will be redundant in 10 years time....the F-15 is only used as a luxury show off item.....like a mercedes benz or porsche!!!its the image status in the military world backed up by TOPGUN movie.
hell...i would feel damn extremely yaya as a fighter pilot too after coming outa an F14 or F15 tom cat.its an image problem....im very sure LKY or LHL would be the first to fly in it to make them feel shiok !!boys dream come true:)
its a military image status tool really even though it can be destroyed completely in air to air combat by unmanned robots inless than 30 seconds in the very near future.
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Well saw is in this morning newspaper..........in Singtown....
Just a thought if they would now change the role of F-16? and of course my next Question is if they would involved in the next intergrated exercise downunder.
RSAF inaugurates Singapore's first F-15SG squadron after training in the US
By Lynda Hong | Posted: 05 April 2010 2307 hrsPhotos of 
SINGAPORE: Singapore's first F-15SG Squadron was inaugurated at Paya Lebar Air Base on Monday afternoon.
The 149 squadron will join the Republic of Singapore Air Force's fighter group under the Air Combat Command which plans, controls and executes air warfare operations.
Mindef said this marks a significant milestone in the 3rd Generation RSAF's development of its advanced fighter capabilities.
At the inauguration ceremony, Deputy Prime Minister and Defence Minister, Teo Chee Hean highlighted the crucial role the squadron will play in enhancing the SAF's ability to deal with future threats.
He said: "The F-15SG is a major enhancement to Singapore's air defence capability and will also play a significant role in the SAF's overall operations. The F-15SG squadron will increase the SAF's ability to deal decisively with future threats and meet our critical operational needs."
Mr Teo also commended the F-15SG air and ground crew on building a high level of operational proficiency and readiness in a short span of time.
The crew recently returned from the Mountain Home Air Force Base in the US where they'd been training since last May to acquire the competencies to operate and maintain the F-15SGs.
The RSAF's F-15SG is equipped with state-of-the-art avionics and a sophisticated integrated sensor suite and is one of the most capable multi-role fighter aircraft in the world.
The RSAF also maintains the Peace Carvin (PC) V F-15SG fighter detachment at Mountain Home Air Force Base (MHAFB) in the US. -
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
search Gioogle--F 15 + refuel
No refuel pipe for F 15!
top--
bottom--
aviationnews.eu
What "refuel pipe"?????
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Originally posted by SBS2601D:
An F-15 once flew home minus one wing.I would like to see a Rafale do that.
If seeing is believing - then see the actual effort of ‘Flying plane with ONE wing’
Is there any doubt left that the F-15 cannot be the right choice ?
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I doubt if there'll be a change in role of the F-16. Too few F-15s as yet.
Minister's interview with defencenews states that trainer selection should be this year. Thereafter, the next sqn replacement will likely occur.
With new cost estimates stating F-35A baseline price = US$138m each, F-15s are now cheaper.
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at this stage of development F-35 seemed to be a long shot in terms of cost .
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With F35s still looking like being very expensive and also far away in terms of delivery, a good bet for medium term will probably be more F15SGs and upgrading existing the F16s. It will be a good combination of aircraft types for RSAF.
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Comparison (F-15SE vs F-35A) - who has the advantage
Speed: eagle (mach 2.5+ vs 1.6+)
Combat radius: eagle (800nm+ vs 610nm+ unrefuelled)
Munitions: eagle (23k lbs vs 18k lbs max)
Internal carriage: eagle - slight (additional jamming, side looking radar + reconfigurable, otherwise same load as lightning II except 2000lb munitions which lightning can carry internally)
External carriage: eagle (more external hard-points with fuselage carriage. Can also carry AGM-130)
Radar: eagle (likely more powerful AESA)
Stealth: lightning II (all round vs front)
Upfront cost: eagle (cheaper @ ~US$110m compared to US$120-$138m baseline)
Maintenance cost: lightning – slight (smaller logistics footprint, single engine but overall life cycle cost probably more expensive for lightning II)
Sensors: Draw with sensor fusion into helmet mounted sights.
EW: Draw.
Delivery date: eagle (earlier delivery)
Pilots: 2 for eagle, 1 for lightning II
Engines: 2 for eagle, 1 for lightning II
Do add if I missed out anything.
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Sensors on the F-35 are far superior. For example, the F-35 has a 6 point IRST. The F-35 is designed with far greater sensor fusion capacity and exceeds the F-15 (and even the F-22!) in that area. But that obviously comes with a price. All that equipment will bring it pretty close to the F-22 in cost. The Israelis had to dumb down expectations after they realised that outfitting their plane with their own electronics would go above 200 million USD!
EW is tricky though. The US always sells its last generation equipment, and there was a new ruling that purchase of US aircraft must include their EW equipment, or the purchaser's own.
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A fairer comparison shud be between the F35 and F16 - the aircraft ( among others ) which the F35 is to replace. The new generation F35 will be significantly superior in most areas than the aircraft it replaces, but it may be too much to pay to enjoy these advantages.
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Ok. Tot this article also highlights the F-35's EW capabilities. http://www.aviationtoday.com/av/categories/military/845.html F-15SG official EW statement http://www.mindef.gov.sg/imindef/news_and_events/nr/2008/nov/04nov08_nr/04nov08_fs.html Electronic Warfare (EW) Suite The F-15SG's EW suite is an integrated electronic support and countermeasures system that comprises a warning receiver, a radar jammer and a chaff/flare dispenser. The system can effectively detect, identify and counter threats posed by an enemy, thereby greatly enhancing its survivability.
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The F-15SG's EW isn't US in origin. As I said, a new ruling was issued that no US jet can use any third party components other than US or the purchaser's own. This move was targeted at the Israelis who were doing too good a business selling top rated equipment which the US wouldn't sell. Go figure where we went to for help.
As for the F-35, it is highly likely the US will enforce similar policies, but no sane nation is going to let the US dictate terms really.