Originally posted by Sepecat:-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
got buy Russian planes or choppers meh ? they are the big-ticket items........
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Clearly you have got this whole issue mixed up with another country
he say S'pore got buy Russian weapons mah.................i was the one that said S'pore will only buy weapons from US or their allies.
it's all political decisions.......economic ones too..........to help with the trade balance
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Typhoon have IRST, F15Sg also have tiger eye IRST.
F-15sg already have AESA radar - current Typhoon ?
payload ? Range ? - Can Typhoon even come close - please tell me there is no major technical barriers .
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Since the F15 was never designed with IRST in mind as it was after all a 1970s tech aircraft, the IRST came as an addon for the F15 SG, whereas in theTyphoon it is fully integrated into the airframe and avionics suite.
Hey wolfeyes, please put on your reading glasses. I quote myself as follows : -
"There are no major technical barriers to install very advanced radars in the Typhoon."
The Typhoon is only in its infancy in terms of growth potential whereas the F 15 has almost reached the limits of its potential.
Dont be awed by what is promised in the latest technologies such as AESA. There is no doubt that it will be a better system , but one must allow time for the technology to develop further and mature. Sometimes being the earliest adopter of the latest technology means that you are the guinea pig and someone else will get Version 2.0 while you are stuck with Version 1.0 with all its kinks.
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he say S'pore got buy Russian weapons mah.................i was the one that said S'pore will only buy weapons from US or their allies.
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I repeat IGNORANCE is Bliss Thank you for displaying it on so many occassions.
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it's all political decisions.......economic ones too..........to help with the trade balance
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I guess that happens in many countries more often than in some.
Originally posted by Sepecat:--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Typhoon have IRST, F15Sg also have tiger eye IRST.
F-15sg already have AESA radar - current Typhoon ?
payload ? Range ? - Can Typhoon even come close - please tell me there is no major technical barriers .
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Since the F15 was never designed with IRST in mind as it was after all a 1970s tech aircraft, the IRST came as an addon for the F15 SG, whereas in theTyphoon it is fully integrated into the airframe and avionics suite.
Hey wolfeyes, please put on your reading glasses. I quote myself as follows : -
"There are no major technical barriers to install very advanced radars in the Typhoon."
The Typhoon is only in its infancy in terms of growth potential whereas the F 15 has almost reached the limits of its potential.
Dont be awed by what is promised in the latest technologies such as AESA. There is no doubt that it will be a better system , but one must allow time for the technology to develop further and mature. Sometimes being the earliest adopter of the latest technology means that you are the guinea pig and someone else will get Version 2.0 while you are stuck with Version 1.0 with all its kinks.
Question IRST is a add-on to F-15, so ? the add on works great = integrated successfully on f-15. Please provide me data to show us how typhoon IRST is any better then F-15 !!!
If based on your arguement that when design time must have the equipment in mind - then Typhoon have a lot of flaw - it was not design for AESA radar and limited air to ground mission. Thus any upgrade or add-on - can i say that it is not integrated and write them off.
Who is there to define the typhoon is in infancy and F-15 is at the limited of its potential ? As long as someone willing to pay and change and add-on, there can alway be improvement. Take the F-16 - they even have the XL version , which change the shape of the wings. That prove that if there is people willing to pay and continue investing - there is room for changes.
F-15SG - as it have the newest radar and all the air-to-air and air-to-ground integrated & operation, based on your arugment f-15sg should be 2.0 version and typhoon still no AESA radar and still does not have some air-to-air and air-to-ground capbilities , version 1.0 .
The add on IRST on F15 works great !!?? Good , you provide me the data !! Do you know where the IRST on the F15 is ??
"........when design time must have the equipment in mind .........." what on earth are you trying to explain ?? I cannot understand what you are saying man.
"Who is there to define the typhoon is in infancy and F-15 is at the limited of its potential ? " The Typhoon is new so its in its infancy. The F15 was conceived in the 1970s which was 40 years ago. Much much simpler can it get for you to understand this.
"Take the F-16 - they even have the XL version , which change the shape of the wings. That prove that if there is people willing to pay and continue investing - there is room for changes." So in your proof , tell me how many F 16 XLs are flying now ?
"F-15SG - as it have the newest radar and all the air-to-air and air-to-ground integrated & operation, based on your arugment f-15sg should be 2.0 version and typhoon still no AESA radar and still does not have some air-to-air and air-to-ground capbilities , version 1.0 ." Correct !!!! F15 SG is CRT TV Version 3.0 and Typhoon is LED TV Version 1.0.
Hi
Just to address the request for info on IRST for F-15SG.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/asia_pacific/singapore/
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2006/LockheedMartinSAdvancedElectroOptic.html
IRST is actually of US origin. I believe the F-14 AAS-42 IRST was one of the first fighter to incorporate the device but was superceded by the TV guidance which presented a clearer pic.
Even for the F-15SG, its only as part of an integrated sensor suite so I wouldn't place too much emphasis on it.
The F-15SE is already an upgrade which underlines the ability of the platform to be upgraded still.
The USAF also intends to use the F-15Es until 2035 and there is an upgrade roadmap.
The suk is a good aircraft but it doesn't enjoy any material advantage over the F-15. USAF is concerned because the same could be said in the reverse.
In fact, the ROCAF just released a paper claiming their older F-16s have a slight advantage over the PLAAF (which operates the suks incl SU-30MK2s as well).
The F15 SG is currently & probably for the near future, one of the best multirole aircraft available today even though the aircraft itself was based on 1970s technology. It is a tribute to the designers of the aircraft that it can still be upgraded to meet the ever changing requirements of air warfare.
There is no doubt that the F15s can be upgraded further but it can no longer exceed the future growth potential of new gen aircraft such as Typhoon.
The RSAF made an excellent choice in the F15 SG. But the Typhoon surely must be seriously considered an option as a potential highly capable multirole aircraft in the future.
The future growth potential is undefined so I'd take a try.
The F-15s have CFTs which offer a developmental route that is not available to the typhoon, rafale or suk. The F-15 will have capability to be equipped with the full range of latest weaponry such as the JDRADM which may not be available to rafale/typhoon (though likely). The F-15 is already ahead in radar tech/ ew/ engine/ stealth etc which means the rest have a lot more to catch up.
Growth can be measured by catch up. If so, then certainly, the others have a lot more growth potential. Is there truly any growth potential that the typhoon has an advantage in?
The typhoon has been measured against the F-15SG and the selection has been made. The rsaf /mindef/dsta should not be underestimated in their rigorous and thorough analysis to take into account future developments.
Some interesting videos on the F15's 1st blood kills ever in the history. (on various selective weapons)
All the 1st blood ranking are from our big brother, ISRAEL AIR FORCE aka IAF
when we buy planes, we also have to consider the maintenance cost, and availability of repair parts and servicing etc..
and im not sure bout this, but perhaps the f16 and f15 shares similar technology in certain areas?
F-15 comes to dogfight compare to F-16, Typhoon and Flanker is the worst.
It just becoming a bomb truck like A-6E...
Originally posted by stellazio:and im not sure bout this, but perhaps the f16 and f15 shares similar technology in certain areas?
It was intended at least for the engines in the early years of the F-15/16 programs (ie 70s). However, the selection of the F-110 GE engines for the F-15SG compared to the existing PW engines mean that commonality is reduced. It is interesting to consider if the rsaf may re-engine its F-16s to the F110-GE-132 engines (same as UAE).
F-16s do share munitions use + same sniper pod + same M61A1 gun as F-15.
There could be similarities in avionics eg HMS, IFF, chaff/flare use but F-15SG' avionics are kept classified. Logistics-wise, fuel is probably standard across all a/c but wiring and maintenance tools may be common as with fuel nozzles and the like. Training for F-15 pilots may be easier for existing F-16 pilots eg familiarity with layout eg HOTAS.
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The future growth potential is undefined so I'd take a try.
The F-15s have CFTs which offer a developmental route that is not available to the typhoon, rafale or suk. The F-15 will have capability to be equipped with the full range of latest weaponry such as the JDRADM which may not be available to rafale/typhoon (though likely). The F-15 is already ahead in radar tech/ ew/ engine/ stealth etc which means the rest have a lot more to catch up.
CFTs can also be developed for other aircraft & it is not necessarily limited to F 15s.
If JDRADM may not be available to Typhoon then likewise, weapons such as Meteor is not available to the F 15. But US aircraft clearly have the lead in weapons choices especially for air to ground. Also, highly capable & low cost US air to ground weapons are being developed with older ones still being improved.
Yes, F 15 is now ahead of aircraft such as Typhoon for radar such as AESA, but the PIRATE IRST on Typhoon is probably ahead of the AAS42 which again is from a previous generation.
Growth can be measured by catch up. If so, then certainly, the others have a lot more growth potential. Is there truly any growth potential that the typhoon has an advantage in?
Yes, the new generation aircraft clearly have the higher growth potential just like any new gen weapons systems where modularity, data buses, stealth etc for example are already built in from the beginning with future improvements or growth also in mind. Although not as stealthy as the F35, Typhoons as do the Rafale or new gen aircraft have been designed from the onset with a measure of this capability. For the F15, this capability is just being looked at now as in the 1970s this was not even considered. The concept then was big, powerful and very maeneuverable.
The F15 although from a previous generation is itself a very good example of what can be done in terms of improvements in capability. The F15 was designed from the onset as an air superiority fighter with " not a pound for air to ground". But today it is the premier multirole aircraft with the emphasis on the strike role.
The Typhoon is similar to F 15 in that from its inception its primary role is air superiority. It is just beginning to be improved and adapted to becoming a mutilrole aircraft. It probably will be optimised for the strike role in the future, just like the F15.
The advantage for Typhoon over the F15 will be in BVR, when the Meteor is operational. The US does not have an equivalent to Meteor nor is there at the moment a plan to develop a rival to Meteor. Without a similar long range missile puts the F 15 at a big disadvantage in the future.
In BVR , maeneuverability is no longer that important if one has Meteor. And in future BVR looks to be the dominant form of air to air warfare. Also, smaller & agile aircraft ( such as Gripen ) with HMS and short range high off bore sight short range missiles put larger aircraft such as F15 and perhaps even Typhoon at significant risk in WVR combat.
The typhoon has been measured against the F-15SG and the selection has been made. The rsaf /mindef/dsta should not be underestimated in their rigorous and thorough analysis to take into account future developments.
As I said, the F15 SG is the correct choice for the RSAF as it has all the advanced technolgies and weaponry available today. But the Typhoon will overtake the F 15 SG in key areas in the future.
The RSAF/ MINDEF / DSTA selection process is clearly very rigorous and thorough and it shows in the selection fo the F15 SG.
My take is that in the future the Typhoon looks extremely good for future capabilities especially in the area of BVR. Also, we shud not be overly dependant on the US for fighters , if it can be helped. If RSAF goes for the F35, then teh Typhoon will be an extremely good complement.
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The IRST on the F-15 is definitely not the AAS-42 and there's insufficient info to claim that the pirate is a better irst. Further, the utility of irst in combat is still suspect.
Agreed CFTs can be developed for other aircraft but the fact is that the F-15 has it whilst the others do not (and does not appear to be in the development program either). Same thing with the AESA radar (at the point of selection) etc.
There is no need for the meteor when the AIM-120D is already further in development as compared to the meteor and I think already in production since 2008.
http://www.defense.gov/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=3784
In 2008, mbda's meteor was still in the SDD stage for pre-production. Further, the meteor is likely to be out-ranged by the AIM-120D and whilst AMRAAM has been combat tested (meaning EW/ECCM works and has a workable and accurate seeker), the meteor will remain untested. Ironically, the AIM-120D may also be cheaper due to economies of scale.
The Typhoon does not enjoy any BVR advantage in terms of munitions and may actually be disadvantaged in performance when considering thrust weight ratios with similar A2A missile loads.
The higher thrust offered by the more powerful engines of the F-15 allow heavier munitions, both A2A and A2G to be carried at lesser penalties. With CFTs, missile drag might be even reduced further.
The IRST on the F-15 is definitely not the AAS-42 and there's insufficient info to claim that the pirate is a better irst. Further, the utility of irst in combat is still suspect.
You stand corrected by Janes IDR Oct 2009 issue which states that AN/AAS42 will be installed in F15SG and F15K.
The AN/AAS42 was developed in the late 1980s / early 1990s. PIRATE was developed in the early 2000s. More recent technology has a tendency to be much more capable than earlier technology or do you wish to dispute this.
Agreed CFTs can be developed for other aircraft but the fact is that the F-15 has it whilst the others do not (and does not appear to be in the development program either). Same thing with the AESA radar (at the point of selection) etc.
Absolutely right - at the time of selection, a AESA equipped Typhoon was only on paper. If RSAF insisted on AESA and the F15SG was the only aircraft that cud be equipped with one in the time frame specified, then RSAF made the right choice in the F15 SG. But if AESA proves to be the highly capable radar it is touted to be, then not only Typhoon but other aircraft will in the future be equipped with it too.
There is no need for the meteor when the AIM-120D is already further in development as compared to the meteor and I think already in production since 2008.
http://www.defense.gov/contracts/contract.aspx?contractid=3784
The AIM-120D is over budget & in low rate of production and is reserved for the moment to US forces only. I also believe that there are still development problems to clear and that’s why its in low rate production.
In 2008, mbda's meteor was still in the SDD stage for pre-production. Further, the meteor is likely to be out-ranged by the AIM-120D and whilst AMRAAM has been combat tested (meaning EW/ECCM works and has a workable and accurate seeker), the meteor will remain untested. Ironically, the AIM-120D may also be cheaper due to economies of scale.
AIM-120 D uses the standard rocket from the C7 version and is outranged by a 5 to 1 multiple by Meteor. So an F15 without a Meteor or similar AAM will be totally outclassed in the BVR arena & this is where air dominance will be fought in the future.
True that AIM-120 is combat proven ; but with a 50 % Pk in actual combat use.
What I am pointing out is there is currently no Western alternative to Meteor & the AIM-120D is NOT an alternative because it is not in same league as Meteor at least where range is concerned.
The Typhoon does not enjoy any BVR advantage in terms of munitions and may actually be disadvantaged in performance when considering thrust weight ratios with similar A2A missile loads.
As I said , in the BVR fight , thrust ratios, maeneuverability etc are of less significance.
The higher thrust offered by the more powerful engines of the F-15 allow heavier munitions, both A2A and A2G to be carried at lesser penalties. With CFTs, missile drag might be even reduced further.
Yes, true for strike missions – more power, big plane carries more. Like I said there is also no stopping the development of a strike Typhoon in future. Again, I say that at the moment the F15 SG or F 15K is probably the best multirole aircraft available today. It may be true today but not tomorrow. Typhoon may fit the bill in future.
lol. Janes also claim Singapore operates the longshot wingkit and a host of other things. In reality, it was flightglobal who first mentioned that LM was offering the AAS-42 (and that was back in 2001) as part of the tigereyes suite.
However, what I do question is the designation cos LM's offering does not appear to be designated.
http://www.lockheedmartin.com/news/press_releases/2002/LockheedMartinWins163MillionOrderFo.html
What LM does say is that
"The (current) IRST system enhances the capabilities of the F-14D AN/AAS-42 IRST that had been operational aboard U.S. aircraft carriers and accumulated over 200,000 flight hours."
Its a derivative, not static. But if you agree the AIM-120D is the same as the AIM-120A, then of course in the same basis, the IRST on the F-15 and F-18s must necessarily be the AAS-42 used on the F-14.
More important is your claim that the pirate is supposed to be superior to the F-15 IRST.
http://www.selex-sas.com/EN/Common/files/SELEX_Galileo/Products/PIRATE_dsh.pdf
Even selex doesn't claim as such. This you have not addressed.
As to your claim that the meteor has 5 times the range of the AIM-120D, I won't even bother to address that except to highlight that if the missile exceeds 300km which it would have to in order to exceed the range by 5 times, then MTCR will kick in and its export barred.
Equally important, IFF/target ID can't operate at that range. If one fires blind, neutral/civilian targets are at risk.
FYI, the AIM-120D is actually the export competitor/equivalent. Raytheon originally competed on the acronym FMRAAM. The idea was to provide an ERAAM+ (today known as the C-5, C-7 appears to be the ++ version) as an interim before the -D was actually developed. The meteor won the competition in 2000 cos the assessment was that the raytheon FMRAAM program was high risk but the amraam (eraam+) was nevertheless procured cos the Eurofighter would enter service before the meteor.
As to the AIM-120D being in low rate production, does not appear to be the case. It has replaced the C-7 production from lots 23 onwards and at my last count, 807 have been ordered for both navy and airforce.
As to the AIM-120D being over-budget, link pls. My understanding is behind schedule, yes. Above cost, no.
http://www.militaryindustrialcomplex.com/contract_detail.asp?contract_id=4655
As to the rsaf receiving the AIM-120D, well, don't expect the rsaf to receive the meteor before all the european partners first either.
There's a lot of hype surrounding the typhoon. Potential this, potential that but all is only potential. Sure, there could be even a potential stealth typhoon.
Yet, what is clear is that the F-15 not only has the major capabilities, those are already existing capabilities without it being a "potential".
F-15SE already incorporates stealth. The SG can be upgraded to the SE standard. The -SG can fire all the current munitions and will be equipped with those in development eg JDRADM/NCADE/MALD etc will similarly equip it. That is not a guarantee for the typhoon/rafale and even if it could, would be later.
Sure, the possibility that Matra may one day develop a 10000km ranged A2A ICBM with 100% accuracy that will be capable of being fired from the typhoon cannot be discounted in the future. The eurofighter consortium may even develop a stealth paint that makes the eurofighter invisible to radar, IR and every single medium. But that is only hot air at the moment. Acquisition decisions cannot be based on hot air.
Originally posted by index81:Some interesting videos on the F15's 1st blood kills ever in the history. (on various selective weapons)
All the 1st blood ranking are from our big brother, ISRAEL AIR FORCE aka IAF
more horse crap from them................just like how ''effective'' their commandos were against penknife-wielding hijackers............or how ''brave'' their army was against stone-throwing Palestinian civilians..........
anyway, US weapons virtually free for them...................and free things are always good.............
in training exercises for countries, the f-15,16.18 play the red force and duplicate the regional threat aircraft
no weight should be given to these, an explanation on training
http://www.defencetalk.com/forums/air-force-aviation/dissimilar-air-combat-training-dact-1157/
Does SA-18A Igala sound american do u?
E reason tat SG didnt not buy Typhoon is most likely becos it cant deliver on time, dun forget not all shedule r determind only by u.
Rafale on e other hand is becos @ tat time it does not come with AESA radar, France's reply 2 SG request for AESA radar is co-develpment tat means time n $
E reason tat SG didnt not buy Typhoon is most likely becos it cant deliver on time, dun forget not all shedule r determind only by u.
Rafale on e other hand is becos @ tat time it does not come with AESA radar, France's reply 2 SG request for AESA radar is co-develpment tat means time n $
I do not want to debate whether the Typhoon is a 'better' aircraft compared to the F-15SG etc etc...
The fact of the matter is the RSAF is probably very risk adverse. To select an untested platform like the Typhoon during the selection time frame (2- years ago??) is probably too risky.
There were development issues with the a/c and it has only seen limited deployment in the 3 partner nations (UK, Germany, Italy).
I think it had subsequently achieved export sale to UAE, South Africa, Finland... etc...
I remembered at that point in time, during the competition, the Typhoon didn't even have air-to-ground software! like only available in Tranche 2 or something.... etc...
Air-to-ground is probably very important since we just retired a large batch of A4s.
Honestly, if you look at any potential adversary in the region, there is not much challenge to air superiority.... there is only like 2 to 4 Su-30 in Indonesia and at most 20 su-30s in Malaysia.....
Hi,
Sorry, I confused the export sale to Saudi Arabia for UAE...
There are only 2 export orders for eurofighter. 72 for saudi (48 tranche 2, 24 tranche 3A) and 15 for austria (tranche 1 and order was cut from 18). Greece had previously ordered 60 and we can see today why the order was terminated.
South africa got the gripen, whilst Finland bought the hornet. As for UAE, they got the F-16 blk 60s but now looking at rafales for m-2000 replacement.
Delivery timeline now if rsaf bought would be tranche 2s. However, only later blk 15s of tranche 2 will incorporate meteor/storm shadow capability and litening pod. No LJDAMs, no sniper pods, no aesa and only AIM-120c-5 no c-7.
The problem is that the 4 partner nations have been steadily cutting their orders too. Orders are currently at 559 (including the 2 export orders) instead of 707 which was the original commitment (which is itself a cut from the original suggested buy numbers).
As usual, Eurofighter export potential includes almost every other country including malaysia (as proposed for the replacement sqn that was postponed).
Originally posted by Sepecat:The add on IRST on F15 works great !!?? Good , you provide me the data !! Do you know where the IRST on the F15 is ??
"........when design time must have the equipment in mind .........." what on earth are you trying to explain ?? I cannot understand what you are saying man.
"Who is there to define the typhoon is in infancy and F-15 is at the limited of its potential ? " The Typhoon is new so its in its infancy. The F15 was conceived in the 1970s which was 40 years ago. Much much simpler can it get for you to understand this.
"Take the F-16 - they even have the XL version , which change the shape of the wings. That prove that if there is people willing to pay and continue investing - there is room for changes." So in your proof , tell me how many F 16 XLs are flying now ?
"F-15SG - as it have the newest radar and all the air-to-air and air-to-ground integrated & operation, based on your arugment f-15sg should be 2.0 version and typhoon still no AESA radar and still does not have some air-to-air and air-to-ground capbilities , version 1.0 ." Correct !!!! F15 SG is CRT TV Version 3.0 and Typhoon is LED TV Version 1.0.
So F-15 IRST is sticking outside - while typoon is inside. You mean to compare how good the IRST is - you judge by how much one dick is not sticking out ?
Typhoon was design with captor radar, and when it was design AESA radar does not exist. Thus we can agree that it was not design for AESA radar. But did that stop Typhoon from getting AESA radar ? No, planes are just platforms that have empty spaces on board for you to put various equipment on it. Does not mean when you first design it - the equipment must die die be design in. One thing F-15 does have more room for various equipment.
F-16XL did not get the needed fundings that why cancel - that also say, that sometime new design , may not offer enough performance different that much that people willing to pay for them.
F-15 has full capability while Typhoon still have lots of weapons cannot use ? Look like your typhoon version have a lot more catching up. !!!