How to upgrade RMAF - Utusan M'sia
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original Malay language article surfaced on 30 Dec 2009. Original text made a word abt F-22
ST published the translated text w/o F-22 on 2 Jan 2010 - commentary
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Its a propaganda article for local consumption. Its funny when ST decides to reproduce such articles which are factually inaccurate.
(a) What makes the author think that Su-30 maintenance cost are not far greater than the Mig-29? The engines are way more sophisticated, the avionics from multiple sources and again far more sophisticated. The parts way more than the migs esp with multiple integration issues bet western and russki tech. Suffers from the same inefficient, middleman procurement practices. Even the pilots have to been sent to India for training.
(b) The Su-30 is indeed more capable than the F-15/F-16 in the following areas:
- It has no aesa radar which means it reveals its location far better than the F-15/F-16s;
- It carries A2A missiles that are outranged by the AMRAAMs not to mention more likely to miss which means it is indeed better at getting shot down than the F-15/F-16 not to mention that none of its BVR missiles has been officially credited with a kill yet.
- It carries EW/self protection equipment that is far inferior than the F-15/F-16 systems which means its likelihood of getting shot down by sams/A2A missiles is indeed far better than the F-15/F-16.
- It carries a 2nd rate western targeting pod that is 2-3 times less range than the sniper pods that equip the F-15/F-16s which means that its A2G capability is definitely better than the F-15/F-16s in hitting the targets closer to launch range.
- It has far better non-mission capable and non-serviceability rates which means planes will stay on the ground for maintenance/out of comission far longer than the F-15/F-16. Sadly, the F-16 has only the highest mission capable rates of any fighter in the USAF inventory.
- Its equipment are not designed to last meaning it will have to be replaced far more often than the F-15/F-16s. The PLAAF recently decom their early su-27s after 20 years of service (which is better than the 15 yr rmaf migs). Unfortunately, the F-15/F-16s can only last for 30-40+ years and requires upgrading.
- It can use the far more inaccurate and unreliable munitions that the russkis have. F-15/F-16s can unfortunately only rely on the (dual mode) AIM-9X, GBU-54s (Laser JDAMs), JSOWs, JDAMs, Paveways that have recently entered its inventory.
- It benefits from russian/indian air training techniques that have outmanouvred western pilots in every war that never happened but sadly kena shot down in almost every A2A encounter that did happened.
Too lazy to cite more examples that the suks are way better than the F-15s/F-16s. One cent money, one cent value.
Fantastic, get more of them pls.
P.s. rsaf does look at $ before procuring. Mindef just lousier at middlemen resource allocation than the MY Mod.
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Why bother?
The Su-30 engines will just get stolen and sold to another country.
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they have the best figther in Asean.
the best way to stop Su 30MKM is 2 F-16/Jas 39 for 1 Su30MKM (Thailand) and 2 F-16/F15 for 1 Su30MKM (singapore)
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The SU30-MKK in an air-to-air and one-to-one scenario is superior to the F15 and F16. Its air to air weaponry is , at least on paper , is also superior to AMRAMM and AIM9X. The SU30-MKK as configured for RMAF duty is therefore a very formidable aircraft not to be messed around with.
But, with what can be seen with issues in quality / availability of pilots & maintenance / readiness issues, the numbers of operational SU30-MKKs and ability to sustain sortie generation rates in a real war scenario, the number of planes that RMAF can put into the sky is probably low.
Any excellent combat aircraft fielded against the SAF will have to contend with large numbers of F15s, F16s, F5Es, an integrated & layered air defence system comprising AWACs, multiple ground static & mobile radars, Formidable Class frigates, mobile SAM / gun units etc.
Finally, even in a one-to-one scenario, aircraft & weaponry superiority does not necessarilly guarantee victory as many examples of air to air combat have shown.
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The R-77 is outranged by the AIM-120C-5 (not even discussing the C-7). The R-77M which would outrange the AIM-120C-7 has not entered service (nor is there any indication it would). No surprise considering that Russia hasn't done much investment in A2A missile tech. The recent article 170-1 upgrade claims to expand range to 110km but how far that goes into the SD export version is anyone's guess. Even then, the C-7 will likely outrange it still.
The R-27 is a semi-active homing (ie requires radar lock all the way) or IR (and no IR missile seeker can go 120km) which suffers from the same reason why the far-longer ranged Phoenix was superceded by the AMRAAM. Not to mention that the export versions are again inferior to the russki claimed ones.
AMRAAM has nine officially credited fighter kills. 6 of them Mig-29s (3 each by the F-15Cs and F-16s), 1 Mig-23, 1 Mig 25 and 1 J-22. The R-77 has zilch and Rosbonexport's brochures even credit the R-27 with a better pk than the R-77.
I'd like to read any paper that supports the contention that Russki missiles are actually better.
RSAF has 24 F-15s (o/o), 60 F-16C/Ds and 50+ F-5s (which are due to be replaced by F-35s). That's 134 fighters to 18 suks, 8 hornets, 7 F-5s of which 1 lost an engine and 2-3 are the non-BVR fighter variants which mean 4+ to 1 advantage not counting the reserve A-4s vs non-BVR Hawks.
The rmaf will need 6 more sqns of suks (108) to achieve parity in numbers and that will take at least 30 years at assumed enhanced rates of allocated budget by which time the F-35 will have replaced the F-5s and possibly some F-16 sqns.
We can, of course, maintain the illusion that the suks are as capable as the F22 in which case, would be more capable than the F-35. lol. Happy New Year magic illusion entertainment.
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well.. they can get all the equipment they like. so what if they get good equipments? if the brains operating these equipments are still stuck at stone age, does it really matter?
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They should just spend their money on more useful things.
Like, you know, basic maintenance, logistics, and.... base security.
Otherwise, don't be surprised to see two SU-30 engines ending up in Argentina in a few years' time.
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Originally posted by fudgester:
They should just spend their money on more useful things.
Like, you know, basic maintenance, logistics, and.... base security.
Otherwise, don't be surprised to see two SU-30 engines ending up in Argentina in a few years' time.
You mean Venezuela?
Anyways, the range advantages of the R-77M is pretty slight. Nothing that can't be nullified by better launch perimeters, first look and shoot. From what I understand, the active range is slightly shorter, thus requiring the fighter to support the missile slightly longer unless he wishes to drop it.
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not too sure abt e A-4, but apparently it could be left to rot
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Originally posted by fudgester:
They should just spend their money on more useful things.
Like, you know, basic maintenance, logistics, and.... base security.
Otherwise, don't be surprised to see two SU-30 engines ending up in Argentina in a few years' time.
I think e article admitted one thing though - Singapore spend a lot of its GDP concentrating onto defence.Of course wat, we've to defend the things we've now and get things done right
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since they are getting the Su30 which is better than our F15/16 and even F35 (since they claimed it is better than F22), so we better faster buy more more fighters.
So the previous report that we are getting 100 F35 is... justifiable
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we have to focus on defence because we need to protect ourselves from aggressor mah...... who is the agrressor?...the author should read the histroy books lah.... no need too far back... just 40-50yrs can liao....
aggressor no need to conquer us.,... any attempt or intent to control us or got many ways to skin us...good enough liao... PUI!!
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Originally posted by Gaosung:
since they are getting the Su30 which is better than our F15/16 and even F35 (since they claimed it is better than F22), so we better faster buy more more fighters.
So the previous report that we are getting 100 F35 is... justifiable
*ahem* fleet size *ahem*anyway they tried to control us by having their RMN based here until we kicked them out w/ higher rent contract in 1997
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Originally posted by sbst275:
*ahem* fleet size *ahem*anyway they tried to control us by having their RMN based here until we kicked them out w/ higher rent contract in 1997
well, they still know how to stick it to us no doubt .... just look at the malaysian railway station at tanjong pagar ..... untill I checked recently, it said "welcome to malaysia", in tanjong pagar !
in anycase, my house's near the railway line ... and I see the trains spewing massive amounts of black smoke whenever they pass by, the trains must be decades old at least, can we stick them for noise and air pollution ?
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wonder whatelse remain unsettled that is to our disadvantage besides this stupid railway nonsense. So they only left with black smoke to irk us?
Can we just cite security reason to stop the train to enter singapore? hold them for years and let the track rot? ha
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they can start by paying the russians and then pocketing about 20% of the reported fee as kopi-duit..
after that, they can mismanage the hell out of it and get a few engines stolen just to be found out a few years after the theft...
then report the obsolete engines as worth about 1000x... way too much for what they were worth to cover up their corruption?
that's upgrading.. the boleh way
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Originally posted by Fatum:
well, they still know how to stick it to us no doubt .... just look at the malaysian railway station at tanjong pagar ..... untill I checked recently, it said "welcome to malaysia", in tanjong pagar !
in anycase, my house's near the railway line ... and I see the trains spewing massive amounts of black smoke whenever they pass by, the trains must be decades old at least, can we stick them for noise and air pollution ?
tat one simply if they stop the railway service for more than 6 mths, railway and surrounding area would become Singapore'safaik, goods like sugar are still using KTM to Singapore. Hence my thinking is they should negoitate at shifting everything to Woodlands and the cargo trains to Sg Kadut.
not only e black smoke la, each and everytime gotta stop the traffic for them, causing havoc
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before their su30 can take on the Thais, indos or Sg.... they have to overcome their own ppl first lah... which is just as deadly as other countries airforce
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I would hesitate to say the Russians aren't investing in new Air to Air missiles. The Indians are putting money into the PAK-DA, and likely, that implies new missiles, along with an AESA radar which is likely on the cards. The Russians have demoed a few AESA radars (not to mention a rather interesting wing edge S-band radar) as well.
AND DSTA anyway is known for being rather cheapskate so you can bet that they would bargain for the best deal which is a balance of tech and money.
Except maybe when an Israeli comes along....
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Originally posted by sbst275:
tat one simply if they stop the railway service for more than 6 mths, railway and surrounding area would become Singapore'safaik, goods like sugar are still using KTM to Singapore. Hence my thinking is they should negoitate at shifting everything to Woodlands and the cargo trains to Sg Kadut.
not only e black smoke la, each and everytime gotta stop the traffic for them, causing havoc
they are definitely keeping the railway running out of bloody-mindedness .... mind you, the train runs right in front of Mindef Gombak's main gates, and I pass through at least one set of railway gates once a day, they like to keep people waiting. Were they lazy, or did they just like to create a bit of traffic bottleneck ? Just look at the railway tracks, it's like some place in rural africa, unkept and overgrown and all.
And really, nevermind the romanian gypsy ang moh who ran over three chaps and ran, what about the young couple who was run over by a train a little while back .... Did the Singapore police question the engine driver ? Were we able to question the chap at all ? Do we have any jurisdiction over crimes and accidents committed on the tracks and in the station ? It's time to stick it back to them.
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AAM max ranges are only part of the story & at max range the energy level in the AAM may be sufficiently low for the targeted aircraft to outmanoeuver it.
Given similar Russian & Western BVR AAMs types in a one-to-one situation, it is 50/ 50 chance which aircraft will prevail. The only way to win in such a case is to have a much better Western BVR AAM such as the Meteor rather than a AIM-120.
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Originally posted by Fatum:
they are definitely keeping the railway running out of bloody-mindedness .... mind you, the train runs right in front of Mindef Gombak's main gates, and I pass through at least one set of railway gates once a day, they like to keep people waiting. Were they lazy, or did they just like to create a bit of traffic bottleneck ? Just look at the railway tracks, it's like some place in rural africa, unkept and overgrown and all.
And really, nevermind the romanian gypsy ang moh who ran over three chaps and ran, what about the young couple who was run over by a train a little while back .... Did the Singapore police question the engine driver ? Were we able to question the chap at all ? Do we have any jurisdiction over crimes and accidents committed on the tracks and in the station ? It's time to stick it back to them.
we have absolute sovereighnty and authority over all the railway land, tracks and stations located in singapore.
this much is very clear.
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Originally posted by tripwire:
we have absolute sovereighnty and authority over all the railway land, tracks and stations located in singapore.
this much is very clear.
I'm not sure if the northerners think so ..... anyone still remember the CIQ affair ? .....
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Originally posted by Fatum:
I'm not sure if the northerners think so ..... anyone still remember the CIQ affair ? .....
who cares wat they think...we got the treaty that states clearly the sovereignty of the land belong to singapore...
their minister have already written to us in black and white, accepting the fact that singapore is the sovereign owner of all the KTM land in singapore during the CIQ affair.