5.56mm bullets too small to bring down 'stoned' Talibans
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This shocking report from the frontlines of Afghanistan will bring back the old debate and arguments concerning 5.56 x 45mm vs the 7.62 x 51mm rounds - both being NATO standards.
While the 5.56mm round is used by most military including the SAF for its size that allow more to be carried by a single soldier - it seems that it remains good for close combat, but its effectiveness tapers off when battles are fought at a distance.
From L to R : 5.56 x 45mm (NATO), 30-30, Winchester, 7.62 x 51mm NATO
‘British bullets too small to fell 'high' Taliban’ (*1)
The bullets used by British forces to fight the Taliban in Afghanistan has been dubbed too small, because soldiers claim that it requires at least five direct hits to bring down the militants who are high on opium.
According to a report, British soldiers in Afghanistan use small 5.56mm calibre rounds also tail off after 300 metres and can easily be blown off the target. Half of all fire fights in Helmand are fought between 300 and 900 metres.
Meanwhile, Taliban marksmen use powerful 7.62mm ammunition for their AK47 machine guns, the Sun reports.The report calls for guns that take larger ammunition to replace all standard-issue SA80 rifles — which many believe were exposed as inadequate in Iraq in 2003.
Report co-author Nicholas Drummond, a strategy consultant and ex-Welsh Guards officer, secretly questioned more than 50 soldiers who have fought in Iraq and Afghanistan.
“A British soldier’s rifle is not much more useful than a peashooter. He can’t attack with any certainty that if he hits the enemy he will kill or incapacitate him,” he said.
One soldier in 2nd Battalion, the Rifles in Helmand, shot a Taliban fighter five times and he still got up to dive for cover, researchers were told.
The study claims car doors easily stop the ammunition. It added that Javelin anti-tank missiles — at £100,000 apiece are often fired at lone gunmen. Just one in four British, US and German troops has been issued with guns using 7.62mm ammo.
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Nothing new here, Atobe. This has been a known issue since 1993, when the Yanks discovered that their M855 rounds were ineffective against the Somalis. The M855's penetrator was designed for use aganst troops wearing vests, and was also designed for the M16A2's 1:7 rifling, compared to the older M193, which suited the M16A1's 1:12 rifling and did not have a penetrator.
Ther irony is that the step forward with the M855 was effectively a step backward when it came to shooting a bunch of guys wearing nothing more protective than a shirt - the rounds passed clean through without tumbling or fragmenting, while the M193 would have knocked chunks out the buggers.
I'm not up to speed with what ammo Singapore is currently using, but the penetrator problem may not apply if the M193 is still standard. As for range, I doubt if the terrain of the SAF's expected area of operations would call for ranges exceeding 300m.
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With so much invested in the toolings for Chartered Industries to churn out millions of the standard NATO 5.56 x 45mm round - that is used by the large stock of weapons designed around this ammo, it is unlikely that this will be discontinued.
The effectiveness or ineffectiveness of this ammo will remain a point of concern especially when publication reports on the experiences of the US Military in the various theartres had been included in the review of the - ‘Small arms ammunition for the 21st. Century: high performance alternatives to the 5.56 NATO round’ (*1) :-
"In Somalia it became all too apparent that the M855 round was lacking the ability to punch through the brick walls and other obstacles commonly encountered in urban areas.
The simplest approach to improving the combat potential of 5.56mm weapons is to increase bullet weight. This has been done on a limited scale by special operations forces, which have used Mk262 competition ammo in the mountains of Afghanistan. The 77-grain open tip match bullet reportedly is effective when used against unprotected enemy personnel, but the open-tip design is less capable than a full metal jacket (FMJ) projectile for penetration of barricades, brick walls, vehicles and other "hard" targets."
With FIBUA being an important part of the SAF doctrine, someone will surely have to look into the continued dependence on the standard 5.56 x 45mm NATO ammo used in the SAF.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
This shocking report from the frontlines of Afghanistan will bring back the old debate and arguments concerning 5.56 x 45mm vs the 7.62 x 51mm rounds - both being NATO standards.
While the 5.56mm round is used by most military including the SAF for its size that allow more to be carried by a single soldier - it seems that it remains good for close combat, but its effectiveness tapers off when battles are fought at a distance.
From L to R : 5.56 x 45mm (NATO), 30-30, Winchester, 7.62 x 51mm NATO
Aturdie is now a military specialist? Doesn't he know that Javelin missiles can be used as a bunker burster if needs be? -
Without knowing what type of ammunition that the SAF uses, this conversation may be moot. According to the SAR 21's spec sheet, both 1:7 and 1:12 barrels can be used. With the 1:12 barrel, the good old M193 can still be used, and given that M16A1s were still in use not so long ago, there's still likely to be plenty of such stock left, and CIS shouldn't have too much difficulty retooling to restart production of the M193.
As for FIBUA, the ranges involved are so short that the M855's issues may not be a problem. When I was doing FIBUA training, I never went for chest shots because it was just as easy to go for a head shot, and a round in the T is a kill shot in any language. On the other hand, I'd be leery about using a 77-grain projectile in close quarters - I'd be as likely to be killed by a ricocheting round as the other guy.
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
Aturdie is now a military specialist? Doesn't he know that Javelin missiles can be used as a bunker burster if needs be?
So much for the zwei-siao-hog's military expertise in recommending the imbecilic suggestion of using a $75,000 Javelin missile as a "bunker burster".Is the zwei-siao-hog paying for the Javelin into the SAF arsenal and rewrite the FIBUA doctrine - or is this another one of the zwei-siao-hog's pipe-dream ?
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Originally posted by Gedanken:
Without knowing what type of ammunition that the SAF uses, this conversation may be moot. According to the SAR 21's spec sheet, both 1:7 and 1:12 barrels can be used. With the 1:12 barrel, the good old M193 can still be used, and given that M16A1s were still in use not so long ago, there's still likely to be plenty of such stock left, and CIS shouldn't have too much difficulty retooling to restart production of the M193.
As for FIBUA, the ranges involved are so short that the M855's issues may not be a problem. When I was doing FIBUA training, I never went for chest shots because it was just as easy to go for a head shot, and a round in the T is a kill shot in any language. On the other hand, I'd be leery about using a 77-grain projectile in close quarters - I'd be as likely to be killed by a ricocheting round as the other guy.
The report from the Somali thearter was that the M193 rounds could not penetrate the brick walls - to reach the "baddies" in the building, and considering that these are ordinary buildings and not a prepared site, this must pose a problem for the kind of intense FIBUA fights.
Although the fire fight was in urban surroundings, the fire-fight was building-to-building with firing distances of 50 to 100 meters, and where the richochet should not pose a threat to the Blue Team.
Your point on being hit by the fragmented richochets from the heavier M855 rounds will probably hold true in the close-up room-to-room fire fights - then again, the use of fragmentation hand grenade for clearing hostile rooms will pose similar risks to the Blue Team.
Since the ‘SAR 21’ (*1) is manufactured with two different barrel rifling (1:12 and 1:7) - each with individual 'Maximum Effective Range' - externally there do not seem to be any significant difference; unlike the AR-15 or M-16 with an alternative 'Heavy Barrel' to be swapped with the standard 'light barrel' to allow for sustain firing using the same 5.56 x 45mm rounds - one will have to be cautious in using the correct rifle when using the heavier round.
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Another issue is the barrel length of the rifle ! most spec ops and other US operators are using the Colt M4 which is a 14.5" barrel and some delta even shorter.. thus creating issues that 5.56 needs the barrel length to create the velocity and thus the magic of the 5.56! without the barrel length the velocity produces on a 14.5" barrel or less just would not thumble the bullet ! be it the 55 grain M193 or the M855 62 grain! the British should have less of this issue since the SA-80 has the full 20" barrel !Or the USMC which still retains its M16A4 which is a ful length 20"! SIngapore at also has the 20" barrel on our SAR21! whether we use the M855 or M193 is still never answer ! It woulkd be interesting to know since the M193 really lacks all kind of penetrating power even on the 1:12 , 20" barrel , the M855 or SS109 howwver is a completely different animal! with the tungsten hardered penetrator! it goes thru both sides of the steel helmet at 600 meter with a 20" M16A2.
Its always great to carry a 7.62x51mm NATO, however, it is deem too heavy to be an all around type weapon and thus it has been relinquish to a support or specialized type weapons in the western world.
Cheers!
DaveC!
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Originally posted by Atobe:
So much for the zwei-siao-hog's military expertise in recommending the imbecilic suggestion of using a $75,000 Javelin missile as a "bunker burster".Is the zwei-siao-hog paying for the Javelin into the SAF arsenal and rewrite the FIBUA doctrine - or is this another one of the zwei-siao-hog's pipe-dream ?
We could always send you in with a grenade against a sniper in a bunker. Let us witness if you can throw a grenade further than a bullet can fly. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
We could always send you in with a grenade against a sniper in a bunker. Let us witness if you can throw a grenade further than a bullet can fly.
From politics to military matters, the intelligence of a 'zwei-siao-hog' never fail to disappoint in its characteristic imbecilic ways to provide entertainment.Will a sniper take position in a bunker, or will it take a less obvious position which a dumb 'hog' will be "zwei-siao" enough to not even consider ?
Even if the "zwei-siao-hog" should ever be a dumb sniper and take its position in a bunker, is it so difficult to take out the sniper with the weapon systems that are available at our disposal ?
Using a CIS 40 AGL or a CIS 40 GL - will it be so difficult to neutralize the threat from a sniper hiding in a bunker ?
Surely, the M203 grenade launcher attached to the AR-15, or M16, or the SAR21 will be similarly as effective in handling the nuisance that the "zwei-siao-hog" should create as a "dumb sniper" ?
With the new OICW air burst rounds that will be introduced as a support weapon for the future SAF 3G soldier, it will be even cheaper and far more efficient to take out the dumb "zwei-siao-sniper" hiding behind its defensive position.
One can surely expect the dumb hog to pee in its pants as it face a hostile PT91 MBT with empty hands, as its had uselessly expended the last Javelin missile to take out the sniper that it believe is hiding in a bunker.
The "zwei-siao-imbecile" should brush up its military knowledge if it intend to strut around as a pretentious Bavarian Hog and bring shame to the military reputation of the Germanic people that it pretend to imitate.
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ya need the right kinda ammo for apes...elephants...human types.
they need real soldiers ina battlefield against tough people.
killing is an art.u should know what to use for the effect u want.
the selection appears that the us and british have forgotten their weapons history.and i hope they werent the ones complaining their standard issued weapons arent effective.
the standard round is economic.there is nothing wrong with it.its just that the people are really angry...n need to use more rounds.
if u need to kill more normal people,,,carry the standard rounds,
barrel length,twist rate,depleted uranium bullets and all those above wont stop them insurgents.appears that most here didnt do much reading n studying in weapons when they were younger in the military or above military profession.DONT WORRY even military contractors thought standard issued rounds were ok too to my amazement.
dont depend on standard issued stuff!
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even admirals made mistakes on their own personal automatic pistols. very common.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
From politics to military matters, the intelligence of a 'zwei-siao-hog' never fail to disappoint in its characteristic imbecilic ways to provide entertainment.Will a sniper take position in a bunker, or will it take a less obvious position which a dumb 'hog' will be "zwei-siao" enough to not even consider ?
Even if the "zwei-siao-hog" should ever be a dumb sniper and take its position in a bunker, is it so difficult to take out the sniper with the weapon systems that are available at our disposal ?
Using a CIS 40 AGL or a CIS 40 GL - will it be so difficult to neutralize the threat from a sniper hiding in a bunker ?
Surely, the M203 grenade launcher attached to the AR-15, or M16, or the SAR21 will be similarly as effective in handling the nuisance that the "zwei-siao-hog" should create as a "dumb sniper" ?
With the new OICW air burst rounds that will be introduced as a support weapon for the future SAF 3G soldier, it will be even cheaper and far more efficient to take out the dumb "zwei-siao-sniper" hiding behind its defensive position.
One can surely expect the dumb hog to pee in its pants as it face a hostile PT91 MBT with empty hands, as its had uselessly expended the last Javelin missile to take out the sniper that it believe is hiding in a bunker.
The "zwei-siao-imbecile" should brush up its military knowledge if it intend to strut around as a pretentious Bavarian Hog and bring shame to the military reputation of the Germanic people that it pretend to imitate.
You can always hope that tanks like the PT-91 can climb up such steeps mountains and cliffs where Osama is hiding and Al Qaeda can bankroll itself to pay for more than 2 MBTs. On the field, the soldier survives by using what the soldier has and not what he doesn't have. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
You can always hope that tanks like the PT-91 can climb up such steeps mountains and cliffs where Osama is hiding and Al Qaeda can bankroll itself to pay for more than 2 MBTs. On the field, the soldier survives by using what the soldier has and not what he doesn't have.
Will you always be fighting only on "steeps mountains and cliffs" ?How did Osama and Al Qaeda get into the picture - or are you imagining yourself now fighting heroically alongside the American soldiers hunting Osama ?
In the field, the soldier survives by staying silent and motionless when it does not have anything to fight with.
Only you will want to be a hero and will alone attack a "sniper" in a bunker with a hand grenade in hand.
We can leave it to your creativity to paint a scenario that allow you to fight a sniper at close proximity, with enough distance to cross the killing ground in front of the bunker, and drop the hand grenade into the bunker.
Be sure you have enough of the right colors to make the imagined scenario real.
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The debate on round calibers are endless, non of the arguments expressed here have not been done to the death.
The 5.56mm round is a compromise, it was decided quite some time back that it offered a good tradeoff between compactness and firepower... of course that was a decision made nearly 50 years ago!
The thing is, if you are hit by a 5.56mm good and proper, you are most likely going to be badly hurt. Within 100 meters the round has sufficent velocity to fragment in your body and cause a wound cavity that is actually larger then the damage caused by the AK's 7.62mm round. In other words, the 5.56mm round that fragments is actually more effective in killing then a larger and slower bullet.
Problem is, with the trend towards shorter barrels as opposed to the traditional 21', this ability is degraded and that's when your 5.56mm performance really starts to suffer because it being effective is dependent on rather fine tolerances.
Thing is, assualt rifle rounds rarely pack enough punch to bring a target down with one shot... I doubt stoned talibans will be downed if you hit them with an AK as well... unless you hit something vital. Assualt rifle rounds are just too small to cause immediate incap. Shooting the target several times is probably what is needed, and most effective. If you want immediate incap try a shotgun or at least a full size battle rifle round like the NATO 7.62.
Ultimately switching to a larger caliber will not automatically solve your problems, you'll still have to deal with things like larger recoil, added weight and all these problems... several other calibers have been suggested to fill this in, such as the 6.8mm Grendel, or if you really want stopping power, the .50cal Beowulf. But then again they are compromises in their own right as well.
I would pick the Grendel as a good step up in firepower while still retaining a lot of the good things about the 5.56mm. Thing is, most industries and militaries (and that is millions of rifles and dollars and machines) are using the 5.56mm, and they just don't really see the small step up in power justifies all the industry retooling, unfortunately.
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wrong answer again.....next please!
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Will you always be fighting only on "steeps mountains and cliffs" ?How did Osama and Al Qaeda get into the picture - or are you imagining yourself now fighting heroically alongside the American soldiers hunting Osama ?
In the field, the soldier survives by staying silent and motionless when it does not have anything to fight with.
Only you will want to be a hero and will alone attack a "sniper" in a bunker with a hand grenade in hand.
We can leave it to your creativity to paint a scenario that allow you to fight a sniper at close proximity, with enough distance to cross the killing ground in front of the bunker, and drop the hand grenade into the bunker.
Be sure you have enough of the right colors to make the imagined scenario real.
You are in a dreamy lala land yourself. You can always try stay silent and motionless while a stoned sniper shoots at you till kingdom come. -
wat? 5 direct hits to kill one guy??? Nabei.. superhuman meh??
Head shot la... one shot enough sure die.... or best... shot their dicks.. let them have a feel that is worst than death..
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wat? 5 direct hits to kill one guy??? Nabei.. superhuman meh??
Head shot la... one shot enough sure die.... or best... shot their dicks.. let them have a feel that is worst than death..
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THEY WONT FEEL IT .....N U WOULD HAVE A BULLET IN YER CHEST....N GET ONE ON BACK AS WELL FROM THEIR KHAKI WHO IS HIGH ON HASHISH HIDING ON A ROCK BOULDER.
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HMMMM,,,,,,THIS IS SCARY,,,,,,,,,,NEXT PLEASE...NEXT NEXT....THERS GOTTA BE MORE THAN THESE!!!!
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Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
You are in a dreamy lala land yourself. You can always try stay silent and motionless while a stoned sniper shoots at you till kingdom come.
Said like a true gung-ho hero that is perpetually familiar with the mud.Obviously no one will expect you to stay silent and motionless in your familiar surrounding when the squeals of delight is the expected sound.
Will anyone expect a gung-ho hero to stay still and motionless - and obviously behind cover - to wear out the patience of a sniper in a bunker ?
No, the hero - filled with all its "gung" from the mud bath that it enjoys with so much 'ho ho ho' - that it must fulfill its play-role of being The HERO, and will make a go at a sniper with all its 'gung-ho' skill to avoid being hit by the sniper.
Good luck for your impatience to wait for your kingdom to come.
Did you forget to pull the pin from the hand grenade ?
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Originally posted by Atobe:
Said like a true gung-ho hero that is perpetually familiar with the mud.Obviously no one will expect you to stay silent and motionless in your familiar surrounding when the squeals of delight is the expected sound.
Will anyone expect a gung-ho hero to stay still and motionless - and obviously behind cover - to wear out the patience of a sniper in a bunker ?
No, the hero - filled with all its "gung" from the mud bath that it enjoys with so much 'ho ho ho' - that it must fulfill its play-role of being The HERO, and will make a go at a sniper with all its 'gung-ho' skill to avoid being hit by the sniper.
Good luck for your impatience to wait for your kingdom to come.
Did you forget to pull the pin from the hand grenade ?
You can always be the hero who stands in the open to let the sniper shoot at you. -
Originally posted by Herzog_Zwei:
You can always be the hero who stands in the open to let the sniper shoot at you.I'm gonna stick with putting something big, tough and solid between me and the sniper thank you.
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Originally posted by Shotgun:
I'm gonna stick with putting something big, tough and solid between me and the sniper thank you.
How calling for arty support and sticking something big, explosive and solid back at the sniper?