Side-arm for the Infantry man
-
It seems that each infantry man in the British Army is armed with a SIG Saur P228 pistol as a back-up weapon. Should SAF consider similar move?
By the way, how does a standard SAF infantry section's firepower compare with the British Army infantry section?
[edit] British Army
The British Army section now consists of eight soldiers made up of a Corporal as section commander, a Lance-Corporal as his second-in-command ("2IC") and six privates. Three sections together form a platoon. In conventional warfare, the section is split into two four-man fireteams ("Charlie" and "Delta"), commanded by the corporal and lance-corporal respectively.
The "Rifle Section" of the Second World War was formed of 10 men; a Corporal as the section leader with six privates with Lee Enfield rifles forming a rifle group, and a light machine gun group of a Lance-corporal, a gunner with the Bren gun and a "loader" carrying a spare barrel and extra ammunition.
Prior to the introduction of 5.56 mm calibre squad automatic weapons (SAWs) in the late 1980s, the typical section was armed with and organized around the 7.62 mm L7 GPMG (general purpose machine gun). The section was typically divided into 3 "groups": a scout group, a rifle group and a gun group. The scout group comprised two men with rifles and/or submachine guns, who usually moved with the section commander (the corporal) close behind. In effect, the section commander was the third man in the scout group. The rifle group comprised 3-4 riflemen, and perhaps a grenade launcher (such as the M79 or M203). The last group was the gun group. This was commanded by the section 2ic (the lance corporal), and the gunner was usually the second most senior private; the most senior private would lead the rifle group.
All section tactics were basically designed to bring the gun to bear on the enemy and support the gun. The gun would be deployed on the highest ground, with the best field of fire. The rest of the section carried ammunition for the gun. It was claimed that, in sections organised in this way, the gun provided 80 per cent of the section's firepower.
This organization was abandoned in favour of fireteams when 5.56 mm assault rifles and SAWs were introduced in the late 1980s. These were the L85 IW and the longer-barrelled L86 LSW ("Light support weapon"). The firepower of the team has now been extended by the L110A1 LMG. The LSW is now seen as a more accurate version of the IW and the LMG is the belt fed weapon for laying down suppressing fire. Each fire team has two IW, one with an underslung grenade launcher, one LSW and one LMG.
An infantry section now consists of:
Fireteam Charlie: Corporal, armed with a L85A2 5.56mm rifle. riflemen, armed with a L85A2 5.56mm rifle with 40mm underslung grenade launcher. rifleman, armed with a L108A1 5.56mm light machine gun. rifleman, armed with a L7A2 7.62mm general purpose machine gun.
Fireteam Delta: Lance Corporal, armed with a L85A2 5.56mm rifle. riflemen, armed with a L85A2 5.56mm rifle with 40mm underslung grenade launcher and benelli M4. rifleman, armed with a L108A1 5.56mm light machine gun. rifleman, armed with a L86A2 5.56mm light support weapon.
NOTE. All troops in an infantry section are armed with a P228 pistol and 1 infantry section to a mastiff or warrior
-
buy your own......
-
Originally posted by Arapahoe:
buy your own......
On an NSF's allowance, they can probably only afford the airsoft version.
-
for Infantry use, I rather carry more 5.56 ammo than carry a bulky SIG228! .... dont; get me wrong, SIG228 is a fine pistol but it do not always fit our Asian small hands! maybe a smaller and slimmer 1911 might be a better choice!
DAveC!
-
Originally posted by Meia Gisborn:
On an NSF's allowance, they can probably only afford the airsoft version.
even if they have money not sure they can buy one? is not like along beach road....
my classmate bought a side arm before he was deployed during desert storm.One of those navy blue uniform white house guard that salute to marine 1...... : )
-
Better to have a backup pistol than only your fists, knife or entrenching tool when face to face with an enemy when your primary weapon decides to fail.
The SIG 228 is an excellent pistol although I think the Glock 17 or 19 will be equally effective at a lower cost and weight. I doubt any soldier will object to carrying a backup pistol when in a warzone .
-
How about a beretta m9?
-
coming to think of it... why aren't the SAF equipping the regular infantry troops with pistols?!
-
Originally posted by wonderamazement:
coming to think of it... why aren't the SAF equipping the regular infantry troops with pistols?!
they are expendable during war.
-
Originally posted by wonderamazement:
coming to think of it... why aren't the SAF equipping the regular infantry troops with pistols?!
who says they aren't? =D -
IIRC, SAF deployment to Timor Leste, all were issued a sidearm? I think it is a P226.
-
Singapore has always stick to the SIG P226. good pistol! however too big for most Asian to grip it correctly. most newer pistols now have interchangable grips to change the sizes like teh Springfield Armoury XDM, Heckler and Korch P30, SMith and Wesson M&P, Walther P99. those would be better choice !
Hell! if I have to go for a mission .... nothing beats a Fine tune, commander 1911
DaveC
-
Originally posted by Babelfish:
How about a beretta m9?
The M9 is a decent pistol that is currently the standard sidearm of the US Army and Marines. It has been in service long enough to have had most of the bugs worked out of it. However, for a 9mm pistol, it's bigger than it really needs to be--there are other full-sized high-capacity DA/SA semi-autos in that caliber like the Walther P99 and CZ 75B with smaller form factors that are probably more suited to Asian-sized hands.
-
Translation By Centurion MBT
It is good to have a side arm as a back up in the event your main weapon jams.
The SIG Saur P228 weight is abt 850 g without ammo. Singapore technologies have created a Compact Personal Weapon (CPW) which is is just 1.5 kg unloaded and without accesories and has the capabilities to take in rounds of different calibers.
Weapon Statistics:
Length---350 mm (500 mm extended)
Barrel length--180 mm
The weight
+0.1 kg empty plastic mag
or 0.5 kg for fully loaded mag--30 x 9 mm rounds.
(Translater's notes: I don't like the idea of carrying a 2kg weapon to complement a 4kg weapon. My mobility will be weighed down at the expense of a backup firepower. I would prefer a hand gun provided I need it the first place.
-
Question of marginal burden and overall benefit
If u want to carry a side arm ,will u carry extra 750 gm for a CPW
iso--in stead of just a gun?
CPW may give u extra 50 to 75 meter extra range than a hand gun.
Besides,CPW can give u semi or auro firing modes,with 900 to 1100 rpm!!
CPW can help u play trick
If you are surrounded ,u can pretend surrender by giving up your rifle.
When the enemy come close to search you (hopefully they will not
shoot u first),then u can spray them with CPW in one go!!
30 rounds is very harmful,if u still have so much ammo!!
Of course,u have hide your CPW nicely!!
-
Eh kid, will you just fragging grow up!
-
P228 meh? i thought P226?
-
Originally posted by Sepecat:
Better to have a backup pistol than only your fists, knife or entrenching tool when face to face with an enemy when your primary weapon decides to fail.
The SIG 228 is an excellent pistol although I think the Glock 17 or 19 will be equally effective at a lower cost and weight. I doubt any soldier will object to carrying a backup pistol when in a warzone .
I don't think carrying a backup pistol is really good for every soldier.
A decent pistol + ammo + spare clips + hoslter is about 1.5kg extra weight. It also hinder movement.
Also a pistol is so much harder to shoot and hit the target, unless proper zeroing and training, it will not be as useful as you think.I for one would go for extra 5.56 rounds then an extra pistol.
-
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
Question of marginal burden and overall benefit
If u want to carry a side arm ,will u carry extra 750 gm for a CPW
iso--in stead of just a gun?
CPW may give u extra 50 to 75 meter extra range than a hand gun.
Besides,CPW can give u semi or auro firing modes,with 900 to 1100 rpm!!
CPW can help u play trick
If you are surrounded ,u can pretend surrender by giving up your rifle.
When the enemy come close to search you (hopefully they will not
shoot u first),then u can spray them with CPW in one go!!
30 rounds is very harmful,if u still have so much ammo!!
Of course,u have hide your CPW nicely!
You must be joking !!! The CPW is 35 cm long - how to hide it ?
Please enlighten us where you intend to hide it and able to bring it up faster then enemy can shoot you.
-
Originally posted by wonderamazement:
P228 meh? i thought P226?
His father alway ask him to buy 4D - alway buy 0228 !!!! that why he suddenly also mixed up - so P228 instead of P226. -
Carrying extra 5.56 ammo does not do you any good when your primary weapon fails. Thats why the side arm is called the back up weapon. It beats having to use your rifle as a club.
A Glock 19 weighs 850g loaded with 15 rounds.
-
Originally posted by Sepecat:
Carrying extra 5.56 ammo does not do you any good when your primary weapon fails. Thats why the side arm is called the back up weapon. It beats having to use your rifle as a club.
A Glock 19 weighs 850g loaded with 15 rounds.
With modern rifles - if you have done proper maintenance & proper usage, there is very little chance of weapon failure. So far all cases we seen of IA have to do with poor maintenance, and user issues.
A glock 19 weight with 15 rounds = 850 + holster = 1 kg. usually a person who think he need side arm will also want extra clips - so total at least 1.3 Kg.How extra weight and things on you - affect your movement, and performance in combat situation.That you may not understand till you full battle gear - do the obstacle course 7 times. Closer 5,6 & 7 round, then the effect of extra weight of a side-arm can be seen.
There is no right and wrong. As all depend on situation.
Unless you are swat or special force - which you go charging and involve in close quarter fighting often. For most other soldiers, a lot of fighting is done longer distance and behind cover and supported by the rest of the team. Thus even if weapon failure - usually have time to do IA or pull back.
If you think you are that unlucky to have your rifle fail on you, then most likely you be unlucky to be shot also.
-
Unfortunately, there is a peacetime and training mindset among us all & when we think primary weapon failure, we think mechanical failure due to poor maintenance , proper usage etc. The words "soldier proof" reminds us that weapons must be designed to take on the abuse in real war situation & weapons failure will be due to this factor, but not this factor alone.
Primary weapons failure also occurs when one gets shot at, which jhappens quite often when you are in a war zone. A grenade fragment or AK47 round may displace or damage your rifle. One may also get shot in one arm or hand which makes it impossible to work your rifle or conduct IA. In the meantime you are faced with the enemy 10 feet away. The only option is a quick draw with a pistol & squeezing off a few rounds at 10 feet. 15 rounds of 9mm is better than 0 rounds of 5.56mm.
Armies & soldiers who have real war experience are issue sidearms ( when their budgets are big enough to issue their combat front line troops in the warzone with them ) because primary weapons failure is a life & death issue exemplifiedby the close quarter urban battles experienced in Iraq & Afghanistan.
In a warzone, I will carry that extra 850g or 1 kg seal my enemies fate rather than mine.
-
in a "warzone" you want to carry the extra "1kg" sidearm, you better be ready to carry another few kg of ammo...
think about that
-
Originally posted by lionnoisy:
Translation By Centurion MBT
It is good to have a side arm as a back up in the event your main weapon jams.
The SIG Saur P228 weight is abt 850 g without ammo. Singapore technologies have created a Compact Personal Weapon (CPW) which is is just 1.5 kg unloaded and without accesories and has the capabilities to take in rounds of different calibers.
Weapon Statistics:
Length---350 mm (500 mm extended)
Barrel length--180 mm
The weight
+0.1 kg empty plastic mag
or 0.5 kg for fully loaded mag--30 x 9 mm rounds.
(Translater's notes: I don't like the idea of carrying a 2kg weapon to complement a 4kg weapon. My mobility will be weighed down at the expense of a backup firepower. I would prefer a hand gun provided I need it the first place.
Let me see.... you want your elite Singapore In-Line Skating Regiment to carry this, rite?
Anyway, I'm in two minds about having a sidearm. On one hand, it may make sense to have a secondary revolver as a backup for self-defence in case your main weapon fails.
On the other hand, its weight (inclusive of ammo and holster) is not exactly negligible and it adds extra heft to all the equipment that you're already carrying. Its accuracy is also of course crap compared to a good rifle (I've fired a P226 before).
But the way I see it, if you're down to using bayonet fighting or a secondary backup pistol, you're already screwed either way.