Submarines collide in Atlantic - lessons for Asian navies.
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When two submarines from two different navies can collide, even with the experience that stretched forty odd year - what are the chances of our submarines colliding with another - from a different country - while submerged in the South China Sea ?
Are the political relations well adjusted amongst the countries operating submarines, so as to be able to closely co-operate in rescue and recovery, as well as investigative works to prevent similar accidents ?
British, French nuclear submarines collide
LONDON, England (CNN) -- A British Royal Navy nuclear submarine and its French equivalent collided while on operations in the Atlantic Ocean earlier this month, defense ministries in Paris and London confirmed Monday.
Both vessels, HMS Vanguard and Le Triomphant, were armed with nuclear warheads and suffered damage but were able to return to port under their own power following the collision.
"Two "SNLE" (nuclear submarines), one French and the other British, were, a few days ago, on standard patrols in the Atlantic. They briefly came in contact in a very slow speed while they were immersed," the French Ministry of Defense said in a statement.
"There is no casualty or injury among the crew. Neither the nuclear deterrent mission nor the nuclear security have been compromised."
In an earlier press release issued on February 6, the Ministry of Defense said the vessel's sonar dome had been damaged in a collision. The vessel was able to return to its base at Ile Longue in Brittany, northwest France, accompanied by a frigate.
The UK's Ministry of Defence also confirmed the incident. In a statement, the First Sea Lord Admiral Sir Jonathan Band said the collision occurred during "routine national patrols."
Watch Band describe "slow-speed impact" »"Both submarines remained safe and no injuries occurred. We can confirm that the capability remained unaffected and there has been no compromise to nuclear safety," Band said.
HMS Vanguard returned to its home base at Faslane in Scotland on February 14. The UK's Sun newspaper reported that dents and scrapes were visible on the vessel's hull as it was towed into dock by a tugboat.
Both the UK and French nuclear deterrent operations depend on complete secrecy, despite both countries' membership of NATO. But naval analyst Richard Cobbold told CNN that procedures would be in place to ensure that French and British submarines were routinely kept apart.
"Either one of these submarines was doing something different or somebody made a mistake -- but we don't know that," Cobbold said.
Watch why the collision is an embarrassment for both the British and the French »Both submarines were equipped with state-of-the-art sonar technology, but Cobbold said it was possible that neither was aware of the close proximity of the other vessel.
"Modern submarines are very, very quiet. In many types of water conditions they might not hear the approach of another submarine," he said.
But with both nations keeping at least one nuclear-armed submarine constantly at sea for the past 40 years, he said it was no surprise that they had eventually ended up in the same area of ocean.
"Even in an ocean the size of the North Atlantic the submarines are eventually going to be in the same patch of water at the same time," he said.
In a statement issued Monday, the UK-based Campaign for Nuclear Disarmament described the incident as "a nuclear nightmare of the highest order."
"The collision of two submarines, both with nuclear reactors and nuclear weapons onboard could have released vast amounts of radiation and scattered scores of nuclear warheads across the seabed," said CND chair Kate Hudson.
"The dents reportedly visible on the British sub show the boats were no more than a couple of seconds away from total catastrophe."
Hudson said the incident was the most serious involving a nuclear submarine since the sinking of the Russian Kursk in 2000 with the loss of the vessel's entire 118-man crew.
HMS Vanguard, which was launched in 1992, is one of four submarines which make up the UK's nuclear deterrent. Its firepower includes 16 Trident II D5 missiles capable of delivering multiple warheads to targets up to a range of 4,000 nautical miles.
The 150-meter vessel carries a crew of 141 and is powered by a uranium-fueled pressurized water reactor. Vanguard Class submarines routinely spend weeks at a time underwater on patrol in the North Atlantic.
But contact with naval commanders and government officials, including the defense secretary and the prime minister, is maintained at all times by a "comprehensive network of communications installations," the Royal Navy Web site said.
Le Triomphant was launched in 1994 and entered service in 1997 with a crew of 111, according to the GlobalSecurity.org Web site. Its weapons include 16 M45 missiles capable of launching multiple nuclear warheads.
The UK has maintained a nuclear arsenal since 1956, with at least one nuclear-armed submarine somewhere at sea continuously since 1969.
In 2006 the government approved plans to develop a new generation of nuclear weapon-carrying submarines which is due to be ready to replace the Vanguard Class by 2024. But the program, which is expected to cost around £20 billion ($29 billion), has been heavily criticized by anti-nuclear campaigners.
http://edition.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/europe/02/16/british.french.submarine.incident/index.html
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Seriously does the "watchdog" agency knows anything?
How difficult is it to sink a submarine with collision?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_San_Francisco_(SSN-711)
That submarine rammed into a mountain at full speed.
And even so he seems to assume that the submarines go at 20+ knots on patrols.
And its not the very first time submarines have collided.
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they can't 'sense' each other from a distance ? or just happen to be in blind spot?
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Originally posted by Twincat:
they can't 'sense' each other from a distance ? or just happen to be in blind spot?
You would not believe it if anyone else were to say it, but it seems that these modern submarines had ‘anti-sonar technology – that were simply too effective’.It made their respective submarines invisible to the other when both are submerged.
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Originally posted by Atobe:
You would not believe it if anyone else were to say it, but it seems that these modern submarines had ‘anti-sonar technology – that were simply too effective’.It made their respective submarines invisible to the other when both are submerged.
yes. also now we realized there are no share info on strategic equipments between Nato members.....heeee.
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Could be a variety of reasons. But nuclear deterrence subs are VERY quiet. Average patrol speed is definitely less than 10 knots.
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Originally posted by Arapahoe:
yes. also now we realized there are no share info on strategic equipments between Nato members.....heeee.
For a long time, the French had pulled themselves out of NATO, and had only until about 3 to 5 years ago returned to the NATO fold.France had developed independent strategies and defence policies that are completely different from the political agenda of NATO, which the French claimed was a reflection of the US political monopoly on NATO policies.
It is not surprsing that France will keep its nuclear force out of NATO control, which explains for the UK and French nuclear submarines not aware that they were both patrolling within the same square in the map.
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In restricted and shallow waters in the region, it is even more likely that the submarines will collide...
Apparently some collison happen when submarine commanders try to edge each other out of position during the cold war era... (tom clancy novels....)
If a submarine is going at flank speed, it will be almost completely deaf (and therefore blind), but the other submarine will hear it coming...and will stay out of the way.
If both submarine are at ultra quiet state, they can't hear each other but are probably going very slowly... which is probably the case for the British and French SSBNs. Which is why they only have dents and scratches and both live to tell the tale.
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i think the chance of a submarine colliding with another submarine is very remote to the extent that there's no real need to be overly concern about it. after all, they're trying hard to be invisible to others.
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/USS_Tautog_(SSN-639)
USS Tautog collided with a Soviet submarine but both survived. The Soviet submarine barely made it back because the sail of the Tautog had actually hit the rear of the Echo-II causing flooding and worse, the failure of one propeller.
Prior to the collision both had been dicing with each other for 5 hours. Tautog had been trailing the Echo II when it suddenly turned around to clear its rear blindspot. Tautog attempted to dive deeper but the evasive measure was not fast enough and the sail hit the passing Echo-II.
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And not to mention the USS Baton Rouge collided with a Sierra class submarine in 1992.
Both made it back but the USS Baton Rouge was decommissioned shortly because it was due to be de/refueled, along with the repairs from the collision and became a victim of military cutbacks at the end of the Cold War.
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possibly the anechoic coating probably worked well on both subs... and to think.. its not so easy to detect subs underwater too.... the conditions may even make it impossible to detect the slight noise the reactor makes if the sub is below the thermocline... For SEA navies i guess, its going to be another challenge... Malaysia and Singapore both operate diesel electrics, which can be almost totally silent at speeds under 5 knots... sonar operators can;t even pick up the reactor since it runs on batteries, and the swish swish of the prop may be so slow that its too silent to even hear it cutting the water. Other than cavitation or sudden bursts, the only other chance of detecting is probably when they are snorkelling...
in this case of the french and the British.. probably what spencer said is right... they are trying to be totally silent and thus really slow.. Being boomers, extra efforts are also made to make them as silent as possible to preserve their nuclear strategic arms... hence in this case... collision may be just simple bad luch
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